Carving Eden out of the Wilderness...

Clearcutting a forest is usually done by commercial timber operations... because they can gain tax advantages doing so. The sale of timber is seen as a profit, and the reclamation process... blading/dozing/windrowing, burning, spraying, planting, post planting spraying, etc. are seen as costs........which are usually a lot greater than the profit, and in the end it's a negative profit... which is what a lot of corporations want... A Loss! Those losses lower the taxes of their other operations, and in 13 years, they can thin the plantation... (and their land investment is doubled, tripled, or quadrupled).

It's several months later, and I think the economics are still against converting large pine forests to pasture. Price of logs hasn't rose, and the cost of dozer work isn't any less.

The only way I could see a 'profit' is to high grade the logs, cut em and haul em yourself to a mill........if you can find one. Always be aware, that pretty log might be perfect in our eyes, but in the mill yard's eye, it's pulpwood... or cut and chip.

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

ArmyDoc

Folks dislike change. After change is implemented the common comment is it certainly was for the better and why didn't someone do that before now. The acreage is yours and you should accomplish what you want on the property. I feel certain that you will be growing forage and trees. Both are contributing to maintaining the environment and both will be contributing to generating income to support the farm. Certainly your ability to purchase the place indicates you have financial responsibility and are aware that you have a significant investment to care for. You have already set goals and established plans that further demonstrate a caring attitude. With persistence and determination I feel you will go forward successfully. Good luck and enjoy.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

That is really an idiotic statement to make when you have no idea of the land, pine value, or long term goals of the OP.

ArmyDoc- sounds like you have a great place and best of luck for you. One thing I would recommend looking at is taking the 1-2 year old pine and converting that in to pasture as mentioned earlier. I just paid someone to clear about 10 acres of scrub pine for me with a forestry mower. The forestry mower was super fast and made me a ton of free mulch. I ran a disc over it and overseeded with clover and rye and expect good results this winter and spring.

Good luck with you long term plans.

Agmantoo's post is excellent and accurate. Wishing Army Doc continued success in his endeavors.

What a load of rubbish. Commercial Pine forest will not feed you until you cut it down and sell it.

Again, it is a CROP, not a forest.

I like what they are doing in North Florida and probably Georgia now too.Growing the longgggg rows of long leaf pine till maturity and in the meantime raking up all of those pine needles then bailing them up and selling them to commercial nurseries.People have always grown southern pines for harvesting,but the collecting of pine "straw" on such a huge level is a great thing all the way around.
Good luck with your land,whatever you decide.

Sharon

__________________
"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."~J.R.R.Tolkien

Armydoc, Just my 2cents here, but if I were you, I would decide soon where your house is going to be and put in your well. You don't have to use it until you get animals or actually live there. We also purchased commercial forest land, 92 acres, and have drilled 4 wells looking for decent, clean water. Good luck and hope you check back in and give us all an update!

ArmyDoc, sounds like you got a plan. Here's a link to what your responsibilities are in the state of Georgia.

http://www.georgiaplanning.com/water...tPractices.pdf

These "Best Management Practices" are about all the county extension agent is going to tell you.

How well your timber is growing should determine your decisions about when to cut, or how much to cut, or if the stand could better be abandoned and turned into pasture land. Timber growth depends mainly on a factor called "site index". Site index is different for each specie of pine. What is good for long leaf may not be that great for Loblolly or Slash Pine. Just depends on your specific tract's index. Site index may vary on a specific tract as well, with several index samples showing that several species may be preferred rather than going with just one specie. After reading that a portion of your land has been planted in Long Leaf pine, I am willing to assume that someone did a site index sample because that specie is usually only planted back on tracts that are suitable for it. It's relatively slow growth in the first ten years would try a man's patience when planted alongside Slash or Loblolly but that diminishes as it catches up pretty quick once it's long tap root is well established. As well, the Long Leaf is more resistant to fire and bugs than the more common plantation species. When it's time for harvest the Long Leaf out-weighs Slash or Loblolly in lbs. per cubic foot. It is way more suitable for lumber and building materials than any other southern specie. What log cabins you see remaining in these parts were more than likely built from the turpentine laden Long Leaf Pine. It has a tendency to grow very straight and very tall.......like our telephone poles.

It's always a good idea ask the forester to do a site index sample, measure the radial growth for the last 5 years and find out what the average total height is. That can enlighten you as to what to do with a stand of timber, in any specie. For really young plantations, ask him to do a survival sample to see how much has been lost since the trees were planted. He'll know the original count per acre that was planted by just looking at the row spacing. Also good to know if you're undecided about whether to do a pasture or let it grow.

From looking at your timber the forester can also give you a ball-park figure on projected harvest tons from the first or second thinnings, and even the final harvest cut.
Right now I believe these prices would be about average on a per ton basis for pine timber. These prices are to the landowner; Pine Pulpwood $11.00 per ton, Pine Sawtimber $29.50 per ton, and Hardwood Pulpwood $13.10 per ton. You're a little to the Northeast of me so of course those numbers may vary some.

Hang tough bro'
Fox



Hang tough,

Wow, this thread really took off again. I'm sorry I didn't check it earlier. Thank you to all of you for your interest and well wishes. I'll try and answer specific questions / comments tonight when I get off work.

Meanwhile, here's a video about silvopasture/cattle operations and is similar to what I'd like to accomplish:

http://www.forestryvideos.net/videos...ul-alternative

Sounds like a good plan to me. I have Nubian/Boer cross goats here and they do well. I am quite a bit north of you. I use a 5 strand high tensile fence, mainly to keep coyotes and other predators out. It has worked well for me. It also works for cattle and horses so one fence for all animals.
I think leaving the stumps is a great idea it will hold the sandy soil till the grass is established. You will have to go back later and do alot of filling in stump holes as they rot if you want a nice level pasture which makes cutting hay a whole lot nicer.

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Chris
http://aberryvinefarm.blogspot.com/

Hi Everybody! Thanks for the support and interest. We finally closed on the property last Friday. I will be meeting with our forrester in 2 weeks to walk the land with him and discuss options and here his recommendations.

Rowan57 - would love to see whatever information you can send my way, and I appreciate your suggestions regarding forages. I plan on using a combination of perennial grasses and legumes. It's been suggested that I look at Bermuda, Bahiagrass and fesque. I know bermuda and bahaia do well here, and have been told fescue does too. But I don't think bermuda is very shade tollerant, where as bahiagrass reportedly does well under the shade. not sure about Fescue in the shade, but I'm thinking it probably would do ok, since the shade would be cooler and we are on the southern end of its range. For legumes crimson clover and landino white clover have been suggested.

Thanks - I do have 40 acres of long leaf pine in the front. We will be raking pine straw from that for a few years until they are due to be thinned.

Good idea, an we are definitely working on that. I have an area picked out that I think will work out well. Since we won't be out there for a few years, my thought is to get the at least one well put in in the back for the animals, and then as we settle on exactly where the house will go, to put a second nearer to the house. They say the water isn't too deep here... I guess time will tell.

Thanks for the link, foxfiredidit. The soil survey site lists our timber site index as 0.8 to 0.85. I will be meeting with the forrester in two weeks and working on some plans. Thankfully many of the best management practices are already in place since they were managing the property for commercial timber before I bought it.

I had nubians as kid in high school and really loved them. Does the boer cross add more meat to them? I won't be adding livestock till we live out there, but when we get closer to the time I'd love to here any suggestions you might have. I am planning on a perimeter fence of high tensile woven wire fence, topped with 2 strands of barb, and one inside of electric. For the cattle, we were planning on HT electric with daily moves as described by Agmantoo.

For those interested, here are my initial plans. I will be discussing them with the forester in two weeks, so any comments or thoughts you may have are welcome.

The back 20 acres was cleared and planted in pine in 2009. It's been overgrown with brush since then, which needs to be cut back to allow the baby trees bettere access to light. Migh plan is to cut aisles into this, running east to west, 40 ft wide. With five or six rows of trees between each aisle. It should look something like this -baby trees are dots, the grass is dashes.

. . . . . . ------------. . . . . .
. . . . . . ------------. . . . . .
. . . . . . ------------. . . . . .
. . . . . . ------------. . . . . .
. . . . . . ------------. . . . . .

At 15 years of age, the trees will need to be thinned - they are planted ~6 feet a part. I plan to thin heavily, so that the remaining trees are about 10-12 feet apart. (x = trees, . = harvested pulp tree, - = pasture)

x . . . x .------------x . . . x
. . x . . . ------------. . x . . .
x . . . x . ------------x . . . x .
. . x . . . ------------. . x . . .
x . . . x . ------------x . . . x .
. . x . . . ------------. . x . . .
x . . . x . ------------x . . . x .
. . x . . . ------------. . x . . .
x . . . x . ------------x . . . x .

At 30 years, the now mature trees would be thinned again, harvesting as saw lumber, leaving the remaining trees 20 to 25 ft apart (left column). At the same time, we would plant pine beneath the remaining trees (right).

X . . . X .------------Xp.p.p.Xp
. . . . . . ------------.p.p.p.p.p
. . . . . . ------------.p.p.p.p.p
. . x . . . ------------.p.pxp.p.p
. . . . . . ------------.p.p.p.p.p
. . . . . . ------------.p.p.p.p.p
x . . . x .------------Xp.p.p.Xp

At 45 years (I'll probly be dead, but you never know - grandma lived to be 94, and her mom lived to be 97...) We harvest the pature pines as veneer lumber, and thin the planted pine, which puts us back to what it looks like at 15 years. After that, the cycle just rotates, with a harvest of saw lumber alternating with veneer lumber every 15 years, sustainably, forever. The forest is sustained indefinitely, while supporting pasture for cattle or other livestock as well.

It's a very long term plan, but luckily, I have sections of forrest that are at 1, 15 and 30 years of age, so I can start at three phases all at once. If I stagger the rotation by 5 years, I can end up with a harvest coming every 5 years. That's my goal - in 30 years, I'd like to have a sustainable rotation set up that has a managed, established forest, with harvests every 5 years, for my children and their children. Not a bad life goal, I think.

I didn't see anyone say anything about this....a stump is easier to remove from the ground if it's not cut even with it.

Hi 1fast68, thanks for your input.

I think you are right, because of the better leverage. If I could afford to pay to have it cut and then buldozed, it probably would be better to leave them long. But if you clear them right after cutting down the trees, it tears a pretty big hole in the ground, ripping up all the roots with it, and really disrupts the soil. I've read in other places that leaving them in place to rot for a few years will prevent the soil disruption. Problem then is I can take care of the pastures easily because of all the stumps.

Agmantoo suggested I cut them flush, and let the grass grow for a year or three before removing the stumps. That way they would be low enough that I could bush-hog over them as needed, without hitting stumps. He said after a couple years, after the roots have rotted you can pull them with a track-hoe pretty easily. I haven't tried it myself, but his pictures are pretty impressive.

Cut them. If you want them back, just quit bushhogging for a few years. The blasted things volunteer like cuckleburrs down here in south Mississippi! LOL! Waiting for pulp prices to go up this winter to have about 15 acres cleared that was once our winter grass field but was let go about 13 years ago. Wish I hadnt ever let one grow in the old pasture. Too much work to get rid of them and get pasture back! Folks not from the deep south just don't understand that planted and volunteer pine forests arent "real" forest land but cropland. I hate to see people ruining great pasture by planting pine trees. Our forefathers worked their butts off clearing land and lazy grandkids plant pine trees on it!

well imo i would plant a house in the north end into the hill side... but i am in the north soo . erm you might not want huge southern windows heating the house in the winter but then again huge overhang/porch will block the high summer sun.. but earth shelterred will help keep your house cooler/ more temperate
atleast pigs in the trees and thin to allow undergrowth for the pigs maybe goats but i am not familar with goat meat markets.
and the hill for terraced planting and work down to lower ground where i assume cows could graize better. using selective cuts even if its one or two load of good wood a year. never thought of pine needle mulch sales being its cheap but maybe market as organic and get 50% higher price. and dont forget your limbs can be used as a HUGE compost pile and make some good soil

If you've left the farm for good, and don't plant pines in plantation (with genetically superior stock), it will restock with volunteer pines and oaks, usually scrubby suckers. Might as well go and do it right...

__________________
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

Update?

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You are confined only by the walls you build yourself.

one other suggestion, why not leave the trees on the perimeter of the property and use the standing lumber as fenceposts..just shear off some of the bottom branches on the outside and staple your fencing to the trees..savings on posts that eventually will rot..also will leave you a windbreak around your property and some habitat for critters.

I also would never completely clear cut any area of land..I'm big into forest gardening and feel that it is really detrimental unless there will be a house and drainfield on that area to cut all the trees out, we did clear for houses..but have been planting trees rather than clearing.

also I would be putting in a variety of trees in place of some of the pines that you clear..such as fruit, nut, etc..

have you ever read Gaia's Garden by Toby Hemenway?

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Brenda Groth
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Stickyburr,

I have definitely given some thought to pigs. Probably not early on, but at some point. And you're definitely right about the compost - with the limbs that fall after a big wind storm, I'm thinking about investing in a PTO driven chipper. Just wish they weren't so expensive.

ronbre:

I was planning on leaving the trees that are on the property line. They are blazed and seem to me to be a pretty good marker of the boarder. Not sure about using them as fence posts though. I was thinking about putting the fence line just inside of them. Not sure what the effect of nailing the woven wire would be on the trees, or what the tree growth would do to the fense.
I don't plan on clearing any area completely. My goal is silvopasture - a combination of forest and pasture, that should be sustainable indefinitely.
I am thinking about nuts and fruit treas near the house. Pecans are an obvious choice. Anyone have other suggestions that would do well in georgia?

Freya:

OK, you asked for it. For anyone interested, I've posted a pretty extensive update of our current plans here:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sho...66#post4917066