Carving Eden out of the Wilderness...

Armydoc, your place sounds a lot like our 140 acres when we bought it except that a homesteader had cleared a 30 acre pasture here in the 1800's. The rest of ours is in timber. My greatest suggestion is before you do any cutting or timber harvest, contact your local USDA/NRCS (http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/) or county extension office and see if you can have a forester come and visit your place. They have a wealth of information about legal requirements and restrictions, suggestions, precautions, local ecosystems, land history, and cost-share opportunities (EQIP is one). Their job is to share that info and help landowners implement it in the best interest of the land and the landowner. In our state there are also wildlife biologists who will do site visits. We've spent several hours walking our land with several people: two foresters, a conservationist, and a wildlife biologist. Through the extension service we took a course in forest stewardship and developed a forest stewardship plan which helped us qualify for cost-share assistance.

Congrats on finding your Eden!

Hi Ronbre,

I like the idea of a log home, unfortunately that is not an option for me. I'm afraid I am no longer young enough to be felling trees and building my own log cabin. But beyond that, the home will be a bit of a compromise between my wife, who would much rather be living in a golf community, and myself, who prefers the country. We aren't quite green acres, but she's definitely a city girl.

But quite frankly I love her all the more for it. She's willing to put up with her farmer/rancher want-a-be husband, and I'm lucky to have her. The way I figure it, if she's willing to move to the country, the least I can do is give her the type of house she wants.

Hi farmergirl,
There is a big difference between Georgia and Texas. Here, most land is forested. Pasture - of any quality, comes at a premium. The least expensive pasture land I've seen is 2 1/2 times the price of this land, and can be as much as 10 times as much.

I understand your desire not to clear forest, but please understand, this is not natural forest or old growth forest with a rich and diverse ecosystem. This is planted pine - planted specifically for harvest between 13 and 30 years ago. There really isn't much else there. What native hardwoods there are, I will spare to provide shade. Actually, after clearing, the areas between the pasture and the forest should provide a richer and more diverse ecosystem than is currently the case, and hopefully will provide some good habitat for the native Bobwhite quail.

There is 40 acres in native longleaf pine which was planted as part of a concervation effort about 15 years ago. (I'm rather pleased by this - and which I intend to preserve and expand upon as the planted pine comes to matureity and is harvested. So I am actually restoring native habitat, not tearing it down)

I think I may have caused confusion when I mentioned clearing the natural pine. The "natural pine" I am harvesting first is not a native or natural forest. The term, as near as I can tell, is a forestry term for planted pine that for one reason or another is not suitable for timber (or at least much of it is not). It certainly isn't natural forest - the trees are planted in lines.

Anyhow, I will be preserving the majority of the forested land, and trying to manage it properly going forward. But I do want/need pasture. So I will be converting the worst quality timberland into pasture. It seems the obvious choice because it provides neither a cash crop like the planted pine, nor a natural forest habitat. If you look at the last picture I posted, with the pastures I marked, there is a section that is along a natural run off area that looks more like a real forrest to me. Alot of diversity there, so I'm going to leave that part in place, as I will the other natural areas along the creek.

Hi Phil,

I've heard that is true for smaller parcels, but I hope you are mistaken in this case. The land was surveyed by a forester, with market prices quoted for sale of timber on each section. In other words, the prices a lumber company would pay me for the privilege of harvesting. The estimate may or not be accurate, we will have to see. But he is a licensed forester with over 30 years experience, so I take it at face value that if he says I can get $20k for the timber on the land in question, that's what it is worth. Anyhow, I certainly hope it's true, since it went into determining the price we will be paying for the land.

Hi Marvella,

I won't be able to live there for a while yet, but it's only a short distance from my current home. I'll be going out there frequently over the next year or two before we build our new home, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. And I anticipate putting a lot of time in putting in fences etc.

You are exactly right about the land - it has probably been cleared and planted many times, and is currently all in Pine intended for harvest, except for the hardwood growing along the creek.

I'm near Augsta Georgia - the propery is near the McDuffie / Columbia county line. I know what you mean about a diverse woodland though, and wish that were the case here. I grew up in California and loved the natural forests there.

I would definitely get a barn and some kind of weekwendwarrior living structure in place on the property, as well as a place to lock up tools while you are gone.

I PMed you btw.

Why not try pigs and goats on the property as is for a few years before undertaking such drastic measures?

They might also be a good choice post-clear cutting. The pigs especially would do a lot to fertilize and loosen the stumps, so I'm told, and goats would keep down any re-growth brush.

You could have these animals work the land and slowly work through the tracts clearing it as needed. If there are any hard woods in there, you could hire someone to cut it for you and install a wood stove in your place. Not only would you start getting your land cleared, but you'd be getting fuel out of the deal too. Or, instead of hiring someone to do it, let them have half of whatever they cut.

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Rachel Haiku Heritage City Farm

People just don't understand what southern planted pine is. It is a crop just like tomatoes.
First of all understand that the pine may be tempting but most will rot if not dry kiln. There is one place I don't compete with LOwes and that is there pine lumber. Pine is what is called a high carbohydrate wood. What this means is as it sets outside bateria will continue to eat and in a couple of years it willcome apart like cards.
When wood is dry kiln the final process is to raise the heat inthe kiln and this does two things
1. Kills the natural bacteria
2 Sets the sap to a epoxy type glue.
Remember folks I am talking about the South not the north. You have cold to aid you.
What you can do and I highly recmend this is to build a building stack your lumber and then turn the building into a dry kiln. When finished tou will have useable wood and a building. I can build a Complete three bedroom Home this way for 20K.

It sounds like you've put a lot of thought and legwork into this project. That will pay off in the future.

I also think adding goats to the early pasture is a good idea. You'll have to add electric to the fencing but that's not a big deal. They'll keep the various bushes and weeds from resprouting and provide a little income. Around here goat dairies will sell you bucklings at a very low price and some ethnic markets prefer intact bucks.

When you plant the pasture make sure to add plants to the seed mix that will build and hold the soil.

__________________
"Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?" Hobbs
"I'm not sure that man needs the help." Calvin

Thanks Mrs. Mucket! Will definitely be talking with the extension agent before doing anything. I do have a forester I'm working with, and he has been a tremendous help. Will have to see if they have any forestry classes through he extension agency - Good idea!

Hi PulpFaction,

Cattle is the ultimate goal, but it will be some time before the pastures are ready for them. Goats may be just the ticket in the early phases. I raised Nubians as a child, but was thinking a meat breed may serve my needs better now.

Hi just_sawing
Thanks for your input! I don't think I will have the time for putting up lumber myself, but I agree with you about the importance of kiln dried lumber.


Fishhead,

When I raised goats in the past, I had conventional fencing... I'm familiar with High Tension electric fences for cattle, but have no experience with goats. What type of electric fencing would be needed? I mentioned to Pulpfaction that I had thought about trying a meat breed, but I hadn't thought about just getting whatever bucklings might be available. Which do you think would be better? Or do you think they'd be equivalent?

I will definitely be talking to several people before I clear any forest about what to plant in the pastures. I want plants that will hold the soil, and that will self seed - I don't mind over seeding now and again, but I don't want to have to plant every year.


For everyone,
I've been thinking about what type of perimeter fence to put in. It will cover almost two miles of fence line, so it can't be too expensive. I had planned on barb wire. But maybe a two (or three) strand high tension electrical fence would be better. Any thoughts?

SOMEONE ELSE invested in the planting of those small trees, NOT you--that "investment" is irrelevant to you unless you want to actually grow those planted trees as a crop. I would turn that back to pasture first, and gradually spread from there. It will save you LOTS of money and effort in clearing and making pasture. It makes no sense(unless the terrain is bad for cattle)not to use this for pasture, since you want pasture.

__________________
THE BEGINNING IS NEAR
5-star double-rated astronavagatrix earth girl

Hi Wyld Thang,

Using the freshly planted 20 acres for pasture was my initial thought, because it would be relatively easy to clear that way. But then I thought, why throw away the investment already made in planting? And really, it is my investment. I paid for it when I purchased the land, after all. Timber is a cash crop here. It would be thinned for pulp in 13 years, thinned again at 25 years, and harvested at 30 to 35 years. This crops already planted, so the investments in the ground.

Since I plan to keep the land in timber, excepting the portion I run cattle on, I need to stagger the harvests. That seems to be the key to sustainable forest. With these planted pine forests, not harvesting at all is not an option. These are not long lived trees, and they are susceptable to pine beatles, with infestations more likely the older the stands.

I'm still learning about all of this, and plan to meet with the forester to talk about the options in more detail. One othe option would be to thin a portion and try silvopasture - getting the benefits of both pasture and forest. Here's a paper on it: http://www.unl.edu/nac/workingtrees/wts.pdf

Anyone have any experience with this?

Three or four strands of hot electric wire will hold most goats especially if they have a lot to eat inside the fence.

What kind of goat to get depends on your market and if you want to continue raising them once the pasture is completed. I think I would look around for cheap (but healthy) young goats, raise them until fall and sell then repeat it the next year. I don't know if there is that much difference in breed if you are only raising them for 4-6 months. Later if you want to raise them long term look for some good breeding stock.

__________________
"Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?" Hobbs
"I'm not sure that man needs the help." Calvin

Mixing pines and cattle are not impossible, people do it here often, but the most successful one leave a large perimeter opening around the outer fence (say 50') and cut lanes (25' +/-) thru the block to open up temperary fencing positions. Most of the ones around here have timber blocks in the 5-10 acre range and they rotate their cattle through them. As you know, more trees=less grass, so many of them do their 13 year pulpwood thinning pretty heavily if cattle is their main money maker.

You paid for the value of the trees on the hoof as is at the time of purchase as if you were to cut right then. Mature timber is worth more than baby trees. THey can't project what trees will bring in the future--of course they can guess, but you don't get money from the tree until it's grown, cut, transported --->AND(the most important part)accepted at the mill. You will make a profit from the piece of ground ---in your lifetime(you said you were "old" sorry)--running the cows in there then leaving the baby trees(just looking at the bottom line, getting a crop out for your benefit, and $$$ input to make the crop happen).

You may have a tax advantage with the baby trees depending on how your state does property taxes, but then you have plenty of trees elsewhere to make up the right density on your entire property. What are your taxes in Georgia? I know if we were to clear some acres and raise cattle for sale, or row crops(not personal use), we would be taxed the higher ag rate for those acres(it might even extend to the whole parcel), even though the density is fine for "forest" for the entire property. Not to mention be charged retroactively back to when we purchased the prop for the difference between ag and forest deferral. All states are different of course.

It sounds like you need to figure out what you want to do with the trees--either grow them as row crops or gradually return it to native forest(which takes a lot of work in thinning--if you are going to pay someone else to do it, that is a LOT of money, especially if they chose which trees to thin. I have no idea about the trees and ect of Georgia(I know about growing trees here in Oregon). How much logging are you up to doing?

From a money standpoint it is cost effective to clearcut. If you have the cheap labor(yourself), then it's not that bad to selectively cut--otherwise that is just more expensive. If there is a horse logger near you that would be cool(for selective).

RE cattle and forest. If you run cattle in forest you just need far more square footage than managed pasture. Out here they do have open range and some of that is forest(ponderosa pine, some fir, it is drier and not as much biomass as the forests west of the cascades). But they are on square miles, not acres. It's all in your numbers, you're going to be walking that prop to make sure the cows are getting enough forage without killing trees(they will scratch on trees too and rub off bark) to be in good condition. On your acreage you'll def have to be rotating and cross fencing.

THere is a guy next to us who runs cows on about 130 acres with pasture/woods(about 70/30, the woods are little groves, mixed fir and oak, the pasture is open. Its divided fenced into 20-30 acre parcels, and he rotates. When the cows are calving he keeps them close to home(because cougars will eat them). The cows are in the pasture next to us about 2 months out of the year, divided into a few weeks at a time, he puts them in when the grass is tall. The pasture on the guy's 130 acres looks in great shape, lots of diversity and native species, nice lush tall grass that is never overgrazed. If the cows are up by us in fall/winter/early spring he does not drop off hay(ie, there is still enough grass becasue it's not overgrazed). I'd say he runs about 20-30 pairs of cows and calves on 130 acres(again, mostly lush pasture, not scrubby woods). But, this is Oregon, not Georgia. Your land looks drier(is less biomass/forage).

SInce the market for wood products is baaaad right now, you're kinda stuck, especially if you want to make money on your trees to finance other improvements. Maybe getting money to improve could work if you lived there(in a trailer or other small stricture) and could do the logging yourself. You need to know the health of all your trees. If there is disease you're going to have issues letting it continue to grow as is.

That will be a LOT of work and expense to bring that property to a place it can support the number of cows you want to run. Dont' forget the cows need water in each fenced off area. You can get by with straddling a fence, but still, that is multiple wells/springs to develop. Out here, unless it is free range, creeks have to be fenced off from livestock.

Going back to your foresters' figure of $20,000--it sounds like that figure is the groww street value of the trees. What you did not consider is that you will pay at least 50% of that to the logger, and then(depending on if the logger uses in house logging trucks, some don't) another percent goes to the log truck driver. What is left over(net) will not be enough to make the improvements you want to--you'd be lucky to get enough to punch a well.

Liek Texican said, with the market value now if you cut now you'll have the benefit of the trees gone and having enough $ from the trees to pay the loggers to cut. Their expenses don't go up and down with the market. If you have no money to pay for labor, and the $ from the trees won't cover their expenses and labor, they just won't cut. It used to be they wouldn't cut unless there was a profit as well, but things are so bad now they're glad to be making an hourly wage and $ for the payments on equipment.

And I hate to say it, but if a significant acreage of harvestable timber is for sale, there are issues with ease of harvesting(slope and access), quality of timber(ie crap trees), wetland/creek to deal with(EPA rules). If it's a healthy stand of trees on land that is easy to cut on(no extreme slopes, easy access etc.) they aren't going to sell, they'll just sit on it.

But that isn't to say the property can't be made into a nice farm, eventually. With a lot of work.

__________________
THE BEGINNING IS NEAR
5-star double-rated astronavagatrix earth girl

And I should probably say that if someone is buying property with marketable timber NEVER EVER take the real estate agent's or owner's value figure for the trees(remember, if the trees had actual value the owner would most most likely cut before selling). If you want to sell those trees get your own cruiser to evaluate the trees.

And even when those trees get to the mill, what you thought would sell for lumber can end up as pulp because of hidden rot etc. DOn't count your chickens before they hatch

__________________
THE BEGINNING IS NEAR
5-star double-rated astronavagatrix earth girl

Thanks Wyld Thang. I really appreciate both the information provided and your taking the time to provide it. It's a lot to digest all at once, and it sounds like I have a lot more questions to ask the forester who did the survey.

Thankfully, even if the timber were of no value, I feel I still got a good price for the property. I've been looking off and on in this area for 10 years, and steadily for 3. I familiar with every property over 50 acres within 30 miles of work that's on the MLS listing, and several that are not, so I do know the market.

LOL. I don't know about old... I'm in my mid 40's. Old enough to know my limitations, I guess. But even so, I'll spend my time working on the things I enjoy, and hire out the rest to others who are better equipped and have more know how than I do. But I am in it for the long term. This is my retirement project (just starting early while I still am earning a good income!) And eventually the property will be left in trust when I'm gone. My kids aren't interested, but hopefully their kids will be. That's the way it worked with me - my Gradfather would have loved this, but it isn't Dad's thing.

I'd like to do both if possible. Should be possible on almost 200 acres to do at least on some scale, don't you think? I do understand economies of scale, but then again, I don't expect this land to support me. I do expect it to eventually move from the red to black, but it will never be my primary income source. I have othere sources of income to put food on the table etc.

This sounds much like what I had originally intended, but more like 50/50 to 40/60 pasture to woods. (see the last pic I posted) Those pasture would be 17-20 acres each. On the rotational grazing thread, Agmantoo is running about 1.5 acres per cow calf pair. I don't expect I can do that well until the pastures are well established though. But eventually these three should provide enough for what I want. Untill then, it should be enough for a half dozen to a dozen once established.

The idea for silvopasture/agroforest is one that I've just been reading about. I have no idea how practical it is, but the pictures sure look pretty If I could make it work, I wouldn't mind eventually putting the whole property into that sort of a set up. But I wouldn't want to try it on more than a small portion until I knew it would be effective.

We're definitely going to have to take it slow. I figure I'm 3 to five years away from my first livestock. And probably 15 from having 30 - 50 cattle. But by taking it slow and not over extending myself financially, it should be an enjoyable journey.

Any chance some of the tress are Christmas tree quality, as in a cut your own xmas tree farm?

Just throwing out something different.

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You are confined only by the walls you build yourself.

LOL! If you happen to have a 20 ft high ceiling we might be able to find something for you....


update:

The surveyors were out the end of the week, and I went out yesterday to walk the perimeter and put more permanent stakes in. It was a hot (95+) sweaty time, but I think the kids and I made a lasting family memory together.

Hey, ArmyDoc. Where do you stand now with your plans/accomplishments? Any successes to report?

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Godsgapeach

“There are two ways to get enough: one is to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.”

–GK Chesterton

Without you living there, goats (most animals really) will just be predator bait. And fencing them in, oh boy... that'll keep you busy.

Congratulations on getting land! I'm thoroughly jealous, I'll just keep day dreaming for now.

Silvopastoralism is a fascinating method of maintaining both land and stock.

Planted Pine is a crop. Your harvest your tomatoes every year, planted pine is no different. As has been mentioned already, planted pine forests do not last forever, and when they start to fail (trees get old, rot), maintenance becomes a real issue.

Planted pine forest does not support a natural ecosystem - it supports an ecosystem, but it certainly isn't comparable to that of a native mixed forest.

Pine forests are susceptible to wind - get a heavy storm and the whole forest can come down. They have shallow root systems, and do little to prevent erosion (on their own).

A native mixed forest, with various layers (ground, middle and top), is far better for wildlife, the soil, and erosion (different root systems mix together to hold the soil).

Obviously a lot of the influencing factors behind deciding whether to clear-cut commercial forest are financial, but a lot of the reasons mentioned thus far are irrelevant.

ArmyDoc, I have some information on some tropical silvopastoral systems that may work in Georgia if you are interested, pm me if you are.

In terms of pasture - I would suggest going for a native mix, which will reseed and develop naturally - proper pasture is beneficial to the soil under it, as grass roots build soil structure, and as plants within the pasture live and die, they add organic matter. As soon as you plough or till a pasture, all that benefit is lost (the structure is lost immediately, and the organic material within the soil is gradually reduced due to cultivation.).

Anyway, just some thoughts, hopefully some of it will help.

Ditto! Sounds like he's taking a piece of paradise and turning it into Carp!

Learn to live with nature and it will feed you Doc!

Sorry Doc, I have a hard time seeing forrested land being clear cut when theres plenty of pasture land for sell everywhere. Around here, someone gets the bright ideal of doing the same thing you just mentioned and when its all said and done, they find out they still can't afford the upkeep or payments on the property and then sell it, or let the bank have it back.

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r.h. in oklahoma

Raised a country boy, and will die a country boy.