Not worth the effort / cost?

Thanks, I'm really enjoying all the information everyone, including you, have shared with me. I think I made more progress since being here then I have over the last year or more doing it all on my own.

Thanks again to everyone!

You asked/posed a great question...I realized that I (low income) tend to grow/glean/ you-pick the stuff I could never afford to buy at the store. I grow lots of bell peppers to freeze each year, because they reach $2.00/each here in winter; I freeze between 10-30lbs per year. Blueberries I go to a you-pick, and freeze however much I can, some years I do jam too. I do snow peas and sugar podded peas; easy to grow and prolific, but not English peas - Birdseye shells them and they go on sale here a lot. Back in my old job/career I faced 16 lay-offs in 18 years, so I like to have good food around! Come what may! ldc

Actually, freezers take less energy than a fridge. We plan on moving essentials from the fridge to the freezer in an emergency. Most of what is in the fridge really doesn't need refrigeration - just use it up quickly.

That can be a hard one to answere!

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http://mmsmiracle.com/EnjoyBetterHealth

Based on your revised statement, I seem to fit right in the target group. I work a job with loads of overtime (military officer), live in a city lot and have a limited amount of time to tend a garden.

Since I live in Norfolk, VA, which is blooming hot and on the water where tidal flooding happens when there's a nor'easter or a tropical coming by, I went with raised bed gardening. That took a LOT of my required time away. They aren't as in need of weeding and don't get attacked as much (no moles!) and I can more easily control the soil so the veggies grow bigger and with less nutritional problems.

So...here is my list of time stressed, space stressed, I want the most bang for my buck gardening:

1) Permaculture - I have dwarf and semi-dwarf trees of orange, lemon, banana, cherries, peaches and a few columnar apples. Those give me reasonable amounts without saddling me with more than I can handle. They take very little time at all once planted.

2) Veggies - tomatoes, Potatoes (stacked growing), peppers, chinese red noodle beans, carrots, beets, parsnips, lettuce, onions (Those are the easy ones that take the least time in order of love to eat)

3) Extra veggies - These only if time permits - fall brocolli, fall cauliflower, fall lettuce, fall carrots, fall beets, cucumbers, squashes (because of space), peas (snap or regular)

4) Meat - I just don't do it because of zoning. Instead I buy "happy cow" meat from Polyface farms. It costs about 17 bucks for a 2 pound shoulder roast but that is what raising meat really costs so I pay it to avoid supporting factory farming. Hunting for meat is really best and includes venison (deer venison that is) for the robust red meats.

And since you are looking for a place to settle. Have you thought of north central Arkansas? I bought my retirement place out there and the land prices are low, four seasons and liberal zoning.

__________________
Christy
Growing Human
http://growinghuman.blogspot.com

When wearing narrow lenses of hate and ignorance, is it any wonder one finds it difficult to see clearly? - Me

ChristyACB, thanks for all the details. I understand your time restraints, my best friend has been in the AF going on 20 years now and when I was in DC last year I got to spend more time with his kids then him. Out of the house by 5 am and home a little before 7pm.

As for AR, my ex's parents currently live in Mena, AR. Cute little town, "interesting" town history, LOL, so there's never a dull moment. But I do like this place, a little more humid then here in FL, but at least it cools off in the winter. They are right down the road from Queen Willamena S.P./ Lake Willamena in or close by the Ouachita Mtn's. It's like a mini Smokey Mtn's in the summer. They get that same Blue "smoke" above the trees, along with the high humidity and very little breezes.

It's not a bad place and N.AR / S. MO are still on my list of places, but I am shooting to go off the grid and they are only a "Zone 4" for solar. So it'll take more PV panels (and cost) to do the same thing in CO or FL.

I am torn into different directions when it comes to one part of my search for land. AR / MO would make for a great "home base" for my hail repair business, but since I am trying to get out of that industry and maybe go back to college for Drafting or an Arch. Engineer, I would be better off moving to Colorado or up around Gainesville, FL where there's schools.

We'll see, my list is getting shorter and not longer, so that's a good thing, and the information I am getting out here has been great. It's been a big help.

SirDude

Daryl:

There are schools in Tallahassee, including Santa Fe Community College which a friend of mine just graduated from with a degree in business and loved it, and reasonable land prices in areas of Gadsden County (just north of TLH). Take a look at these MLS numbers in Gadsden County - 205404 & 200998. If you want to continue house painting, there is work to be had and I know a couple of contractors to put you in touch with.....

Kitty

AuntKitty,

Will do, with the MLS #'s.

Thanks for the offer on the painting, but as for the two business I do right now (Painting and Hail repair) I am doing my best to get out of both. Right now with this economy the painting prices have taken a nose dive, I went to bid on some apartments last week and the property manager laughed at me. He gets one bedroom units painted for $80, and three bedroom units for $125. I laughed back at him and said yeah, and I saw all the paint you guys had to scrape off the mirrors, etc. No one cares about quality anymore, they just want to lowest price.

Flipping through the jobs ads on Craigslist for different areas it's not too much better in other places. The pay looks a little higher, but it's all just adjusted do to the cost of living. In bad times everyone thinks they're a painter! LOL

As for the schools, yes, that is a huge reason I am trying to remain a FL resident. I have family in IL and my best friend is in Manassas, VA, both places I could go live for free (for a while) and save some money. But the trade-off is it puts me into "out-of-state" tuition prices. I was all set to start college here, but the program I was going for was so small that there's a waiting list for the people who can hold a 4.0 GPA. I was realistic enough to know there was no way I was going to hold a 4.0 and work enough to put a roof over my head. So I had to put schooling on hold for a while.

So we'll see where this all takes me. In some ways it's nice having your "complete" world turned up side down. I don't have too many worries, besides putting food in my stomach, I can always go live in my truck or tent, again. LOL Though this might be a good time to try one of those WWOOF programs, since I'm living on the cheap right now, why not learn something???

The biggest down-side to everything that is going on is the money / credit right now. Economy, divorce, dying industry, etc, has all taken it's toll, so as I always say, there's a trade off for everything. Mine, when it comes to land, is I need to buy cheap and/or from an Owner Financing, maybe in an area where I can get some work right away. Or, I have to wait until after the hail season. So far that's off to a bad start, for me. yes, it's hailing all over the place, just the wrong side, etc. Won't bore everyone with details.

Right now, as I said before, I have been looking at some dirt cheap land, in the general areas I want to be. Even something zoned R1, and maybe just build a quick storage unit and not worry about growing anything until I find a good starter piece of land down the road. I have so much to learn and/or straighten out in my life right now that I know I won't be planting anything until 2011 at the very earliest.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling and getting off topic. And thank you for your thoughts.

SirDude

You are going to have to experiment and answer this yourself. It will be unique to your circumstances - your tastes, your land, your time. No one can answer this question for you better than you.

Just experiment and have fun. I believe the best way to go about this would be to try a few things out first and talk to people who live nearby and see what works well for them. Start small with the things you feel you will like best and add new projects every year. I do suggest starting with poultry first and perhaps rabbits. Dairy animals are very time consuming and all large animals not only are expensive to purchase and feed, but can ramp up huge vet bills as well. Unless you can offset their feed with pasture and homegrown hay and grain, I doubt you can compete with Wal-Mart Supercenter but you may be able to compete with organic, grass-fed meat offered at a specialty meat store.

Don't even try to factor in your labor costs. Once you do that, you might as well like you said, purchase all your food from Wally World. If I'm not mistaken, most here are like me and we don't homestead for the sole reason of saving money. I'm happy if I break even but I don't think I've ever done that if I factor in my labor.

I think many of us homestead because it's a lifestyle we love. I definately feel more in control of the impact that I have on the earth's resources and I feel that the close proximity of nature, fresh air and exercise are best for a human being's health. There is nothing more satisfying than watching my garden, my livestock, and my family thrive from my love, hard work and care. You can't really put a price on that.

Cost effectiveness - This varies so much that probably every answer is correct, given the variety of situations. When in Vermont, peas and lettuce and carrots were easy to grow. I've not been able to get a decent snow pea or (Alaska) pea crop to grow here, and end up with one big potful from an entire 80' row.

In Florida - before citrus canker - we had a couple of valencia orange trees that kept us in oranges with NO labor other than picking one off the tree and peeling it. Grapefruit were similar. Mangoes required a little care, bananas were a pain, requiring tons of water and mulch. Until the bugs moved in, papaya was an easy plant, and even pineapples grew without much work. As for vegetable gardens in south Florida? A total washout unless planted in containers. The heat, bugs, crazy dry and watering schedules all conspired to kill plants.

Here in north AL, the most productive and useful crop seems to be green beans (blue lake bush). They are a major diet staple. Winter squash was really good last year, but I'm having challenges with it this year. We use a lot of it, so I'm working at that. Okra is also being ornery this year. Maybe not enough heat yet? This is the year of greens, and the cost effectiveness once you figure in all the washing and stripping just isn't there compared to canned, but we've had big crops of turnip, kale, mustard, and are about to harvest collards. We harvest what we can get.


What I am growing (sorry for the pun) to find disturbing is the relationships of government and poverty programs and craziness in some of the fringe eco-nuts. There is an increasing disconnect between people and the basic knowledge of what is involved in growing what you eat. It doesn't help when aid to the poor is often in food stamps rather than rent assistance or basic dental care. It separates them from growing food at the time that the experience is most critical from the point of working towards self-sufficiency and working out of poverty.

I believe that there are a few core aspects of being human that are sacrosanct and important in how we relate to the spiritual. I've thought along those lines since I was a kid, but not been able to express it until recently.

Clean drinking water should be free. Period. It is NOT a commodity, it is a God given right as much as air. No municipal water system or government should EVER be allowed to charge for the first 100 gallons of water per person per month, and that includes any recurring monthly charges to tap in. Remember the old public fountains that were free to anyone? Now, in most cities, paying for water service is a requirement to getting a certificate of occupancy for your own property. That is SO wrong. Wells in the desert are highly prized, but denying a person water is an unforgivable sin. We are on the verge of taxing and institutionalizing and corporatizing water in ways that are even more sinful.

IMO, I think every person capable of growing a food -any food-, if they want to speak about the environment, vote on agricultural issues, or talk about religion should grow at least1/10th of the food they eat - personally, for at least five years. Too many people have lost connection with reality, with real spirituality, and with the labor involved in producing food. Society has lost its grounding as a result. It wasn't that long ago that the bulk of the population was involved in agriculture on a daily basis. Since that is no longer the case, nut case organizations like ELF and PETA have sprung up unimpeded.

In eastern religions, one of the symbols of an enlightened monk is one who gardens during the day and is so intent on gardening that all thought and ego are absent. In the west, the closest many get to that nirvana is the stupor induced by eating too large a fast food hamburger and big puke Slurpee.

When talking with someone who has gardened or raised animals for a few years, there is an indefinable assuredness of being and patience that is different than the flighty high-energy, want it now attitudes of those who have not gardened.

In summary, when you raise your own food, you raise your own consciousness. How do you put a price tag on that?

Harry Chickpea,
Amen!

your whole post is worthy of a thread of it's own. the part i excerpted is a great pithy quote.

--sgl

Potatoes, 5 lbs for 69 cents. Why plant?

You know having read several of your threads now I think you might want to seriously look at the Fayetteville, AR area. Mena is nothing like Northwestern Ar. It's cooler and less humid there, they have an excellent Farmer's Market with plenty of growth potential and U of A should have the schooling you want to get. You can get a nice starter place not too far out of town for a very reasonable price. Look at the Prarie Grove area.

I would suggest you move to the Carolinas. A bunch of Florida natives are doing just that, like my wife and I. In fact within 1 mile of me there are several families all from Florida. We bought 25.5 acres for right at about $50k. Im in SC halfway between Charlotte and Columbia. 1.5 hours to either one and about 2 hours from the beach.

If you cant grow stuff here then you are not gonna grow it anywhere LOL

There are gardens in every yeard round here. Ag is a big thing in my area. Corn, Soybeans, Tobacco, Melons, etc...

Sometimes my customers tip me with items they canned from their gardens.

Wow. thats cheap. Potatoes are through the roof here, and are so easy, and basically free to grow, so no biggie there. As for celery, I put a few plants in my herb garden, and just cut off stalks as I need them. I like the taste in salads, soup and stew. It usually stays useable through November, at which time I dehydrate whats left . Not a major crop, but easy to grow, and used more for flavor.
I wouldnt waste my time growing wheat, rice or corn. We dont have the right conditions or space, and I can buy all of that from a local farmer for cheap.

__________________
I'd rather have one Chewbacca than an entire clone army.

What are the "basic" items not worth the effort / cost to grow or raise yourself?


Dairy & Meat products

For many reasons, I don't plan on ever owning any animals. For me, it's all about gardening.

Check out some of the northern countys of Florida. I live in Union. Land here is going for 4-5K an acre. Lots of water. Low taxes. Close to colleges. On the down side...Very conservitive. Lots of "old families" that run the local gov. But good law enforcement and EMS. Our largest employer is the State of Florida Corrections. Even if I won the lotto, I wouldn't move.

Life itself is very rarely cost effective. Virtual life is much cheaper....

__________________
"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

It depends on what you're looking for. I want to have as much control over my food supply as possible. Since I'm kind of a "the end is near" person, I want to grow my own food now because I want to know how to grow it later, if (when) our society ever does collapse. So for me, it isn't about cost-effectiveness of raising one product or another. It's about developing the skills that we may need someday to survive. So for me, the milk cow, the chickens and pigs, the garden, the bees, etc. are serious. I don't just do what I enjoy. I do what I think I may need someday. Peas are a good example. Right now, frozen peas are cheap and very nearly as good as fresh ones, and peas take quite a bit of space for what you get. So, right now, they aren't really cost-effective. Still, I grow peas because I'm planning for the day that peas are harder to come by. If I lose a crop of peas now, it's no big deal. If I lose a crop of peas during a famine, it's a disaster. I want to learn all that I can now, when it's no big deal to fail. That's why I have my beloved cow. I could buy milk. I even have a source for good-quality raw milk. I don't even like milk all that much. But I want to know how to tend a cow, how to handle the milk, how to make my own butter and cheese. Yes, it's a lot of work and a serious time commitment. And I could buy a LOT of milk for what I have invested in that cow. But the skills that I'm developing could one day be invaluable. What I'm learning now could be all that stands between my family and starvation.
I know that my viewpoint is a bit radical, but you wanted opinions....