MO Homestead & Raw Milk battle

Did I miss something in this article??? They announced that the illnesses were caused by "e.coli" from raw milk........and now they are just now taking samples from the farm to look for e.coli????

This is so typical of what I have seen of reports of people getting sick from raw milk. As soon as they hear the words, "raw milk," they jump to the conclusion that the cuprit is the raw milk. They usually don't even test anything else.

And they call themselves "scientists"..................

think about the Pennsylvania Dept of Ag.......took samples from a farm selling raw milk, and then announced that their milk was contaminated........except that the farmer also drew samples at the same time.......and sent them to independent labs......the independent labs found no contamination.

IMO, anyone who implicitly trusts any Dept of Ag re: raw milk must still believe in tooth fairies.

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"When you are having dinner with someone and they are nice to you, but rude to the waiter, then this is not a nice person.".....Dave Barry

The "elephant in the room" that the Ag Departments are trying to sidestep......."Does an individual American, living in the land of the free and the brave, have the right to decide for himself/herself what food they can consume......and do they have the right to decide for themselves where to buy it?"
Most Ag Departments are trying to avoid this issue, because they are sure that they will NOT win!!!!

IMO..........the argument is "upside down".............the argumnent should not center on the "right to sell," but rather on the "right to consume!!!"

If I have the right to consune milk from my own animals, then why should I not have the right to purchase it from someone else??!!!

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"When you are having dinner with someone and they are nice to you, but rude to the waiter, then this is not a nice person.".....Dave Barry

I live next door to a gentleman who who works at a southern Missouri dairy farm. If you heard the stories of what happens there, you wouldn't drink cow milk from the store or eat cheese from the store.

NASTY!!!

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

ridiculous...of course they were set up. unfortunately, the girls are young and inexperienced and probably used to selling other wares in a traditional manner and probably didn't understand the seriousness of what they did or that they were being targeted in a crafty sting. however, they were representatives of the farm and should have been trained better. that will lead to the bechard's loss in this case. i give the bechards a 10% or less chance of winning on the interpretation of the vague language. i do feel that if they can weather the outcome of the case and continue to sell raw milk that the business model of delivering to customers at a farmers market will stand...as long as they insist on a receipt. i would definitely insist on a confirmed order and documentation and keep all the money out of the farmer's market.

i certainly wish them the best.

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this message has probably been edited to correct typos, spelling errors and to improve grammar...

"All that is gold does not glitter..."

I am terrified of trying to sell my surplus jersey milk. I KNOW the law will pass right by the meth lab and drug dealer's house to bust me for running an outlaw dairy. Maybe I should grow and sell marijuana to support my dairy cow habit. The penalties for that are way less severe.

I would be terrified to sell raw milk, too -- but not because of the law; because of the lawsuit that would result if someone became ill from accidentally contaminated milk. I like my farm, and want to keep it.

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"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

I do think our rights are being taken away, WE should have a choice in what WE buy. But then again, I do see both sides--it's like the motorcycle helmet law, My step-son says it should be his right to ride without a helmet, and I argue the law is for people too stupid to protect themselves--so I guess I have to agree, against my better judgement, that they (meaning Govt.)think they are protecting us.
In aside, Ozark Jewels, are you allowed to sell Jersey milk from your farm? I've tried to find a place to buy, used to have a cow in my younger years, and I so miss Butter--and Cottage Cheese....

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In Life, We Weep at the thought of Death'
Who Knows, Perhaps in Death,
We Weep at the though of Life.

Real freedom would be the freedom to sell raw milk, anywhere, anytime.

Under real freedom the buyer is as responsible as the seller.

Diseases happen and people get sick and/or die regardless of the greatest cautions taken as well as the tightest strangling bureaucratic regulatory nightmares.
Many reports have adequately indicated that bureaucratic meddling has served the opposite purpose for which it was sold to us dupes.

That said, the market has long rewarded diligence in the preparation of products for sale as well as punish those who are slothful and careless about their work.

From what I read in the information provided, the family in question does not have a history of negligence.
I don't see that the father even instructed the daughters to sell the milk in such a manner as they did. It was spur of the moment.

Where is the criminal intent ?

Those of you who want the government's intervention at the first hint of a possibility that someone might be making a living, especially in ignorance, in spite of some over-regulation, deserve the tyranny that you now have, and I can't wait until some of you hang, publicly, for the first time you are caught breaking some knee-jerk "law".

In a land where the dominating whims of men will cause them to stoop to entrapment to line their trophy cases with broken farm families, anyone who sides against such a family deserves to starve.

I say it can't happen soon enough.

In the interim, why don't some of you over-ambitious busy body do-gooders go volunteer to throw the switch on those two girls, yourselves.

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“I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Barry Goldwater.
III

"ridiculous...of course they were set up"

Even Bechard doesn't claim to be set up. Since they sold milk MORE than once to someone other than a person who pre-ordered the milk, you should be wondering how the health department even knew about this? The health department admits going to the Bechard website and there the Bechards were advertising the distribution of their products. When we first heard about this and before it made the news, we read what they said on their website. It was pretty clear to us that they had milk to sell and it was not all being sold by pre-order. How did the health department even hear about them, their milk sales and their website?

Now that they have changed their sales policy to meet the law, you won't find the damaging words on their website.

We feel bad that they are in this position, but if we go strictly by what we know from the press, it's not good for the Bechards. Evidence against them that will come out in court is worse. Claiming that a 21 year old is young and dumb is not going to get them anywhere.

Suggesting that someone throw the switch on the two daughters? Who even ever came close to suggesting that? We thought this was a debate on the law and if it was being followed.

My problem with this case is that they did do something wrong and instead of saying you know what we screwed up, our kids made a mistake and they shouldn't have sold to someone we didn't have an agreement with in the first place. They should have said we are sorry how can we fix this but instead they decided to fight it. They broke the law. Doesn't matter if they were set up, doesn't matter if the Health dept has it out for them, doesn't matter if I think raw milk laws are unconstitutional they still broke the law.

I hate it when somebody fudges on the law and then fights it because all they do is make it harder on everyone else in the long run. If you were actually at fault then pay the fine, say you are sorry and move on.

Well said, Patt.

You are a very wise woman!

I'd not risk my fortune for a handful of coins...

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

it's quite easy to see how they were set up, and your attitude supports my theory. someone or two someones from the health department ordered the milk, neglected to pick it up and sent undercover milk nazis to see if they could convince the girls to sell it. it was done more than once to bolster the case against the bechards. most folks who deal drugs get caught when an undercover agent buys more than once. your attitude of "look, they did it more than once so they had to be selling" and i paraphrase, shows the mindset of a department that has the desire to build a strong case and avoid any chance of the appearance of the extra milk being a fluke. you really emphasize how they had "extra" milk, but they had extra milk because they were setup. now if they had a truck load of extra milk and no more customers, i would concede that they had the intent to sell without arranging the sales ahead of time.

they most likely are fighting these charges because of the severity of the punishment. to me, the eager nature of the authorities to punish raw milk sales is at odds with the law which allows at least some mode of it's sale and it smacks of politics just as you assert that the bechards are fighting the charges for political gain. the place for that is in the legislature and not on the street. i think a simple and stern warning for a first offense, or an offense of this nature, is more appropriate. two containers of milk sold outside the law of only two available (as far as i know) doesn't show intent to sell outside the law, it shows the girls were setup. no one would risk thousands of dollars in punishment and the possibility of jail time to sell 2 gallons of milk. unlike my analogy of drug dealers and being setup, these girls were not drug dealers, they were inexperienced. as i said before, they should have been trained better. no, a 21 year old is not exactly a child, but i assert that most 21 year olds don't have as much common sense as older adults. if they had been asked if they could find the agents some meth or coke, i am sure they would have declined. having grown up on the farm, viewing raw milk with the same stigma that the health department does is something they just hadn't learned. i don't know what the prosecutors had to offer in the way of a plea bargain, but i suspect there was no allowance for a reduction of punishment if the bechards agreed to no longer fall victim to being setup...or to sell milk left behind by "customers" who are a no show.

the bechards were not trying to skirt the law or operate out side of it, they were trying to conduct legitimate business to the letter of a vague law. it seems that really ticks off the health department. well, shame on the bechards for not training their representatives a bit better. indeed they should have. shame on the health department for making it seem like they had a truck load of raw milk and trying to sell it to the public unarranged...i am sure the girls were standing on a crate and shouting through a megaphone to attract attention.

there seems to be lots of support on both sides of this political issue, but if the health department wants the respect and support of the public, they need to choose their battles a bit more carefully. in this case, if the intent of the health department is to stop the illegal sale of raw milk, a simple warning would have sufficed. i am sure having a little sit down and chat with mr. bechard would have ended the practice of selling the "extra" milk. i guess we are all supposed to condemn mr. bechard for trying to defend himself in a court of law? whatever...

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this message has probably been edited to correct typos, spelling errors and to improve grammar...

"All that is gold does not glitter..."

I suspect the 'spirit' of the law to prevent the direct roadside sale of raw milk. When they sold without a prearrangement they violated that standard. I am sorry but I see them 100% at fault.

And I can see the health departments concern about the conditions under which the milk would have been stored from the farm to the consumer's refrigerator. It doesn't take much of a temperature increase to greatly decrease the 'keeping' quality of milk - even pasteurized. For example, at home you leave the milk container out during meals. It should be removed from refrigeration, poured and the remainder put back into refrigeration.

When I was in the Navy I was on an Anti-submarine Warfare group headed by a Rear Admiral. In the three or so years I was with that group we were aboard four WW-II class carriers. On one I notice the milk would be 'bad' after a couple of days out at seas. While in port I noticed it was unloaded from trucks and left to sit on the dock for a couple of hours before being stored aboard ship. I sent a suggestion to the ship's Ex on it and thereafter there was a loading crew on hand when the trucks arrived, so it went pretty well from refrigerated storage to refrigerated storage above ship. The milk would then go as much as ten days without going bad.

Now I certainly agree they woud have received a stern warning the first time, and then the second time being a direct violation. Apparently they are being used as a example case. Negotiate a settlement and move on.

There is a direct health issue, but there also is an indirect one.. A customer who travels to the farm to buy milk, or who contracts in advance with the farmer, is more likely to be an informed consumer, IMO. When buying at the farm, the customer also has a chance to view the facilities and form an opinion as to the cleanliness of the operation and wholesomeness of the product. Caveat emptor!

Someone who spots a milk vendor at a farmers market and makes a purchase on impulse may not understand the risk they're running by drinking raw milk. (And who is going to inform them? The seller?) Sure, you can slap on a warning label, but how many people will notice it?

I think the law in question strikes a good balance between prohibiting raw milk sales altogether and allowing it to be marketed side-by-side with pasteurized products.

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"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

The question is did they break the law and the answer is yes.

But to try to blame the authorities for someone breaking the law needs more than just an opinion based on the idea that all legal authorities are always wrong.

Bechard's drop off was/is in a parking lot of a small strip mall that contains several businesses, one of which is a very well respected health food store. It should cross your mind that of all the customers walking past them on their way into any one of the stores, someone could have taken notice and called the health department. Could have even been one of the businesses. You don't know. Could have been one of the vendors that delivers to one of the stores. You don't know.

Were they warned? You don't know that, either.

Meth is an entirely different subject, but frankly who cares how they get caught. Are they ever right selling illegal drugs anywhere? But, that's hardly a good comparison to what's going on with this case.

In this care, breaking the law is no way to change the law. It only makes it worse.

Even though I understand the intent of public health laws, I disagree with many of them..
In our local farmer's market, the County Health Department has stated that it is a violation to offer any opened "product"..to wit:

Someone raises watermelons..perhaps they cut one open, keep it on ice and offer free samples..nope..no can do..against the law. Why? Because people may get sick ..we used to have local food vendors at public events..until the County Health Department came around to the public parks, thermometers in hand, and shut down barbeque stands for not having "appropriate " temps..now, only licensed food vendors with certified kitchens can sell.

I despise..yes, DESPISE, any government rules/laws/regulations which are geared to FORCE me to make only those food choices approved by the government..
One could hope that a better use of the Health Departments' time would be spent inspecting restaurant kitchens for roaches, etc.

Since the Missouri law is so strange, if it had been me, I'd have made certain that my family members knew to sell ONLY to pre-paid customers..why invite trouble from authorities who over react to every detail????

Goodness folks. It's our own fault that we have cultivated a generation (or more) of people who are not "informed." The solution to that problem should come from our own initiative and desires to properly educate those around us that we have opportunity to effect. It is not the government's job to look out for all ingnorance.
And from a practical standpoint, on all this who's responsible for what.. just like any farmer could choose to be negligent, any consumer could too. If you pick up your milk that is currently fine, and then dally around in the car too long, what can be expected? What if you pick up a cracked egg when you carry the groceries in and fail to wash your hands before grabbing the milk and cross contaminate? Is it the milk producer's fault? the egg producer? no wait, the bag boy who probably broke the egg.. anybody's fault but our own. Stuff happens. We've gone too far in who to blame.

And as usual, Forerunner's post was right on!

Back to the original story, I hope that family succeeds in court.

i think another question is whether or not the health department is engaging in what can be compared to, perhaps not equal to, entrapment. you won't divulge or admit to the health department being both the tardy customers and the those who bought the "extra" milk. i find it quite strange that customers from various other businesses would ask the girls for "extra" milk. if i were a customer, i would just ask for milk.

to me, there is no question the girls broke the law. i don't appreciate you assuming i have problems with authority such that "all legal authorities are always wrong ". perhaps that it is your attitude that anyone who questions laws and misguided prosecution are nut jobs?

were they warned and do i know? no i don't, but i suspect they were warned not to deliver in the parking lot and that is a totally different issue than selling outright. again...did the girls fall victim to a crafty sting and sell in the parking lot? yes they did.

i don't feel bechard was breaking the law in an attempt to change it. to reiterate, i feel he was attempting to follow the letter of a poorly written and vague law. if it can be said he is trying to change the law, he is doing so as a part of his defense because the health wanted to be political and make an example out of him instead of actually doing something reasonable like warning him not to sell directly out of the parking lot, which would have ended any "danger to the public" then and there. this is where i feel, without any direct knowledge, that i have figured out this mess. bechard was warned not to deliver in the parking lot, he felt the law allowed it, he was warned not to do it and a crafty sting caused his poorly trained representatives to violate the law when they had no real intention to do so.

prove me wrong.

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this message has probably been edited to correct typos, spelling errors and to improve grammar...

"All that is gold does not glitter..."

Yes, off of my place I can, from our small herd of milking Jerseys.
We can't off the dairy farm though, as that has been inspected and graded and the government has agreed that it is safe and clean. Just a bit of sarcasm there.
But we are not taking any milk customers due to the fact that between the family and the calves and my goat kids, we are using all the milk from our four Jersey milkers. And truthfully, I don't want the hassle of selling milk. I give a gallon away now and then to friends, but that is about it.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence