Propane Generator Questions
 

We live on the grid, I am considering a generator for power outages. My major concern is being able to power my Dialysis machine for extended outages. It would need to run nine hours per day (at night really) and draws 750 watts. I figure we would be want to be able to keep the fridge cold and run the well long enough to get the days water.
Our house has a propane wall furnace and a nonelectric propane space heater which would keep the house warm enough to survive. We have a 500 gallon propane tank on the "keep full" program. I keep about 30 days worth of dialysis supplies onhand which could be streched to 60 days if needed. I want a propane generator because of the stability concerns with storing gasoline or diesel, long term, in quantities large enough to keep me alive
Questions: 1. How much power does a portable gas generator lose when converted to propane or should I consider a ready made for propane one? 2. How big of a generator would I really need? 3. How much gas per hour should I expect the generator to use? 4. What other things do I need to take into consideration when looking for a generator?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
Kirk

Propane Generator for 4K
 

I saw a 15KW propane generator at Home Depot this weekend.
The turnkey installation was about $4,000.

Given your medical concerns, you could probably deduct this as an emergency dialysis system.

you may want to consider a solar panel array and battery bank exclusively for your dyalisis machine. no feul to store, next to no maintenance and no moving parts to wear out.

solar power can al;so be used tio generate hydrogen and oxygen fuel, conversion from gasoline to hydrogen is not difficult either.

another alternitive would be meathane generator, from a septic tank/digester. these are quite common setups in rural india, where farm waste is put in, gas comes out.

if you are lucky to have a natural gas well, you have all the fuel youll ever need.

i think you have overlooked a big part of your power requirement(s). I.E...airconditioning.......if i was on a diaylasis for hours at a time I wouldn't want to sit in a hot house. A gen set of sufficient capacity to power your whole house would probably need to be in the 30,000 watt size. You wouldn't beable to afford the fuel. What you need is maybe a 10kw gen set that runs off propane with an Automatic Switch that will bring the gen set on line when the grid power is off. 10 kw will run 2 , 8000 to 10,000 btu window air conditioners, a frig. , ceiling fans, a water well that runs only when necessary, interior lights, etc. If.....you have a big refrigerated cooling system....You will have to TURN it off until the grid power comes back ON. You will also have to COOK with gas and utilize passive gas heating during the winter. A 10 kw , propane system will probably use 10 to 15 gallons of gas per 10 hour run cycle. Gasoline\propane powered generators are NOT very efficient. A 10 kw Onan Diesel gen set is really the way to go. But, they will run about $7,000 for a new unit and probably give you a service life of 20,000 hours IF you do the required maintanence. ............fordy :dance:

[QUOTE=fordy]i think you have overlooked a big part of your power requirement(s). I.E...airconditioning
Fordy, I think that here in northern michigan there are about 2 days a year on average where a/c is ever even desired. Dialysis patients are usually trying to get warmer as we dont maintain heat well for some reason.
I agree with the comments on the diesel vs gas but I need a fuel which will be available and fresh when the lights go out. So far Propane seems the way to go. If I were completely off grid diesel is the way I would go.
It looks like with I should consider a 1000 gallon tank If I'm going to use 10 to 15 gallons a day. That should keep me in power as long as my supplies will last. Beyond that I will need a hospital or devine intervention.
Sinceee posting I have found Generac gaurdian systems with grid transfer switch in 7, 12 and 15kw models ranging from $2395 to $3395 At Tractor Supply Company. The same models are several hundred more thru Northern Tool.
Thanks to all who responded and any further input is welcomed.
Kirk

If I might suggest a couple of things.

A) Consider a multifuel generator(uses propane, natural gas, and ordinary gasoline without modification)

B) Construct a producer gas plant to power a generator as a backup to everything else.(Producer gas is also known as wood gas, a flamable gas made by heating wood in a metal container free of oxygen. Simple plans are on the web.)

C) Be prepared to pay a large amount for any reliable generator.(Its one thing to buy a cheap generator for simple power outage, and another matter entirely if your life depends on a medical process powered by a generator.)

Best of luck to you.

Diesel engines will run fine on used oil, thinned with kerosene, 5 to one.
That makes for real cheap fuel, per gallon, and both fluids have _indefinite_ shelf lives. I am actively using such a fuel in 5 large diesel engines and will gladly share more info if anyone is interested.

Swampdweller

For the longest life and reliability go with a Lister Genset. They only use diesels which in your case can be bought ready to run on gaseous fuel like propane or natural gas. Because it's a diesel it will outlast any gasoline engine. Listers are reknown for quality.


If the price of a Lister is too high buy a COMMERCIAL quality Generac propane powered unit. The ones powered by the GM V6 engines are excellent. FWIW, you won't find the commercial grade units through businesses like Northern Power or retail outlets even though they carry some of the Generac models.. Generac has a separate page on their website for the commercial units with a link to the distributors in each state.

Given your needs, I would not buy a genset that's typically sold for home use. You need absolute reliability. Both the gensets, I mentioned run at 1800 rpm for less wear and longer life than the cheaper units running at 3600 rpm.

Please post your information. Thanks.

I've shared a bit of info on used oil as fuel in the "hard times coming....best way to invest money" thread on this forum. Check that out and I'll gladly answer any questions.

Swampdweller

I went to that thread and read it. Not bad.

Except for including gasoline in the list of thinning products. How is it that the gas does not blow the engine apart with the high compression of the Diesel?

Personally...You wouldn't catch me running Mazzola in my $$7,000 , diesel generator. .........fordy :D :no: :dance:

Gasolene is more volatile than kerosene, but, mixed with oil, it tames down considerably. I've not pushed the limits with gas, so I can't say exactly what ratios are safe. I do know that I've used gasolene that had gone "bad" as a thinner for the diesel, with good results. I also know that Caterpillar recommends 1 gallon gasolene to 5 gallons strait diesel in the event of a winter emergency (cold snap) to keep the regular diesel from gelling up. If you can do that with thin diesel, I imagine you could go three gallons oil to one of gasolene and be fine, winter or summer. I've yet to try it. I like kerosene. It's amazing what these diesels can burn....so long as it's clean. The kicker is that the heavier viscosity of oil actually increaes the life of the injector pump. My experience, so far, is that it's best to start the engine on thinner fuel, say, strait diesel or 3 parts oil/one kerosene, then, when the engine is up to temp, switch to a heavier blend. I preheat my fuel to 110-120 F. 180 would be better.
I'm obviously uncertain of your specific application or questions, so I'll stop here and answer point for point if you like.

Swamp

You sure could. The first problem you'd have is carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. That could be prevented by preheating the fuel, adding a thinner, or assisting the burn with propane or a hydrogen generator. You could also run water vapor through your intake. That adds power (same concept as a steam engine), steam cleans the entire upper cylinder area, which would add years to the life of the engine....and keeps the engine running cooler, which is another power boost in itself.

And, for the record, I paid 52,000 for the backhoe, 65,000 for the bulldozer,
38,000 for the excavator, 17,000 for the truck, and 5,600 for the Deere 4020.

I've had as much as 80% oil in the hoe and the tractor. A tank of oil gives me 20% more working time than diesel fuel.

Details, details.....

Swampdweller

I would be applying the used oil in a Diesel Tractor and using it to tend a small farm.

I'd like to hear more details of how you filter the oil.

Thanks.

Filtering is THE key. That said, it is all but eliminated by a process that I have discovered--sedimentation. Profound, isn't it.
I put all oil from any source (no thinner, just oil) into 300-500 gallon overhead fuel tanks with a valve on the bottom. Gravity is a wonderful thing. Water goes immediately to the bottom. Open the valve and drain it off. Impurities all sink, but they take time. Crack the valve once a week or so and let the oil flow until it flows smooth. Use the sludge to treat your pole barn posts and fence posts. I have several barrels of oil that sat for over five years. It is the cleanest stuff, almost translucent. That it how I "discovered" sedimentation. Plan to let you oil sit for as long as possible. When you are ready to burn, run it through a 10 micron spin on filter. Another thing I learned by chance is that heat is a wonderful thing. I cut a 1000 gallon LP tank in half to make a woodburning stove for the shop. I mounted a 300 gallon overhead fuel tank above it to assist the burn with used oil. After one burning season, I opened the valve one summer day, and the oil came out clean and almost clear. Why ? The heat from the woodstove sped up the sedimentation, considerably.
Another thing I did on my 4020 was to run the fuel through a one half inch pipe that I hose clamped to the exhaust manifold for a preheat. I also have two fuel tanks on the tractor and start on thinner fuel until the engine is hot, not warm, FULL operating temperature. Summertime, pulling hard all day, is the best use of oil fuel. You can just about go 100%. Winter is touch and go. Your injector pump will last longer for the added lubricity in the oil fuel, summer or winter, but it may break if you fire up on cold, thick oil in winter.
Thinner is a must. I am planning on piping in a small quantity of LP gas through the intake manifold to assist the burn and replace ether for cold starts. I'll let you know how that goes.

Swamp

Say Swampdweller -
 

Do you have any motorcycles?

Stephen

I would contact the Dialysis machine manufacture and get some imput from them on using a generator to power your machine. Generators dont always put out the cleanest or most stable power. They have peaks and valleys on voltage and freqency. You might want to use a battery and quality sinewave converter charged by a generator. This way a smaller generator is needed and you get cleaner power for sensitive medical devices.

Just get a diesel generator. Yes they are more exspenive then gas but are more durable in the long run. Diesel fuel stores fine for long periods aslong as you add fuel stabilizers. I worked for many years as a boat mechanic on diesel and gas engines they would store a minimum of 6 months some for a year or more and run fine off of stabilized fuel.
As was said by someone you can use "other then diesel" to run diesels.
Well this is true but SHOULD ONLY BE DONE IN AN EMERGENCY. Don't take a $4,000 plus generator and put anything but diesel in it unless you have to. Besides if you can afford the generator you can afford fuel!
In all fairness though the gentleman who stated the used oil and kero mix is correct in saying it will "work". Anything that will combust around 600 degrees or less will work. The problem being diesels work off a slower burn then your typical gasoline engine. So when you alter that burn rate for LONG TERM usage you will have negative performance effects.
I would not bet my life on solar power unless I Knew how to repair and was able physically to maintain my ENTIRE system. From repairing the panels to the wiring to any hardwire/electronic controls. The reason being it is much easier to find somebody to rig an engine to run then to solder a hardboard.
I don't like propane and would not advise it, to volatile. Unless you have a run away detroit nothing is safer/better than diesel.

propane vs diesel gensets
 

Kirk,
I got a 10kw propane genset with an auto-transfer switch - dirt cheap from a remote cable tv site. They ARE out there, used, but VERY well maintained, and CHEAP - in the 10-30KW range. Mine dates back to the late '70s, with a great Wisconsin Robin Engine. Everyone has been upgrading their systems, they ARE out there. Still good, 12v Gell cell batteries can be had for free. Just ask around.

These things were sold as package units, with the transfer switch included in the mount, so they're very simple to hook up. Talk to your local cable TV tech., telephone tech, cellular tech and see if they got one they're getting ready to move out - be sure to tell them WHY you want one - you got a good reason, they might help you out.


We have SEVERAL Generacs and Onan gensets, as a small part of my job, I have to make sure they run. Do not buy a Generac, ever! In fact, I wouldn't ever buy a diesel unless I lived in Flordia. Without a tank heater (engine block) diesel's don't like to start in cold weather. How much does it cost to run a 1500 watt tank heater? $$ OUCH! If you live up north, and your power goes off in the winter, it'll be too late to plug in the tank heater. We keep our heaters on, 24/365 - those diesel engines are 180 degrees and we still have problems starting them. Oh, yea, they start for all the PM tests just fine, but let an ice storm roll through, and if it's a Generac, it's "iffy". The engines are not made by Generac, but by every Tom, Dick and Harry, some domestic, some foreign - I can't read the script on half of the smaller ones, maybe it's chinese?

One thing about water cooled generators, they might be quieter than air cooled, but "wet stacking" is a huge problem if they don't run long enough. Diesel gensets need to run till their HOT, the oil needs to get hot - or moisture is gonna take it's toll on your unit. Without stabilizers, gas goes bad, reformulated gas absorbs moisture, etc., diesel gells in cold weather, not so with Propane. Components on diesels are expensive to replace!

My old propane generator starts and runs like a champ, warm weather or cold, rain, ice or snow - and I don't have diesel or gas smell around the house to contend with. It's hooked right into our 500 gallon propane tanks regulator (at the house), like the furnace - simple, neat and easy to deal with. It ran it off a 5/8" garden hose during last hurricane, sitting on the basement stoop (49hrs). Now I got the automatic transfer switch installed, with all the circuits I want to maintain "normal living" during an extended outage. This includes the well pump, electric water heater, 90% of the lights & outlets, freezer, fridge, ceiling fans, furnace, etc. I left the electric stove and AC off the system.

If you've already got a gas generator and want to convert to propane or multi-fuels, check out this web site for conversion kits.

http://www.propane-generators.com/

So far, we've suffered a power outage each month. From a minute or two, to 49 hours. I'm glad my family will not be out there trucking diesel or gasoline when things get really nasty.... Unfortunately, I'm one of those guys that gets called out because of it.

If I had to buy a NEW residential size, I'd be looking for a HONDA 10-12kw electric start and convert to propane. Derate 10% for propane. Forget the multi-fuels if it's a residental unit, set in place, never to move again. My neighbors and I started with those 5KW gasoline extended run $500 units... I'm making mufflers for them to quiet them down so we can sleep... They're fine for temporary portable power out in the field, but I wouldn't trust one to keep my Dialysis machine running.

Whatever you do, OVER SIZE! When the smaller units start loading up, the frequency/voltage drops and all kinds of terrible things happen to devices with electric motors (well pumps, furnace blowers / pumps, fridges, freezers, washers / dryers). We lost a bunch of compact flourscent lights and a nice stereo due to an intermittent miss on our other unit... some stuff is pretty sensitive.

That's my 2cents worth.

Runner, if you read my post it addresses several of the issues you raised. Generac markets the cheap stuff through Northern Power, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. The commercial units are sold through full service distributors. As for engines, a 4.3L GM used intermittently, fueled by propane or natural gas will probably still be around when the owner has passed on. The engines in the Generac commercial line, such as the 4.3, are solid. A friend has a 4.3L in a 92 S15 Jimmy that has 220,000+ miles. The engine doesn't use any oil.

A Lister diesel setup for propane or natural gas will last longer than that. As long as the battery has the stuff to crank the diesel fast no matter how cold it gets, the diesel will start. Using propane or natural gas to fuel a diesel eliminates the gelling problem.

Darren - just echoing some of what you said, but....

The generators we have at work, are all Generac commercial diesels (except one Onan) These range from 50kw to 300kw single and three phase, package units on 550 & 900 gallon tanks. They are junk - period. Three & four year old generators, none with more than 70hrs, and we're replacing thermostats, water pumps, charging units, coolant, fuel & oil lines, drifting freq & voltage. Radiator fan shafts that tear up the front of the units. Why would they run a fan shaft THROUGH the radiator??? Whatever antifreeze they stuck in these things, we're looking at rodding out radiators or replacing next.

If you really like them, I'll talk to the boss, we've gone through 3 companies with service contracts - everyone hates these things - maybe we could get you the service contract! The only genset we have that's not diesel is a propane 454 cid unit that has cost us a fortune to maintain. The controls change from year to year, the "generac" parts cost 2-3 times (you have to figure out "who" really made the engine and then order what you need).

If the folks building (assembling) them won't buy them, why would you? Generac has made a reputation of producing the least expensive unit on the market, with whatever they can scrape together. We have Hino, Ford & ???? diesel engines on these things, it's like they went to the 'surplus mart' for engines.

If these are "commercial" units, they should be called ultra-light duty.

Lister is not in the same class as these diesels - they are the champion of gensets, the only diesel I'd recommend. Plus a whole lot quieter. Again, echoing most of what you said, but other than a Lister, I'd take a propane unit over Gasoline in a heartbeat.

For a look at Lister and other diesel generators

http://www.allworlddieselgen.com/

Shell out the $$$$$

Genset selection?
 

Kirk! I've worked on, around and with propane powered engines for over 30 years. I own a small 3 kw genset also converted to burn lp--butg just as an emergency power.

My recommendations may be a little different than most but considering your situation and location--propane is really about the only choice to make. A unit in the range of about 10kw, COPPER WOUND, and a workin speed of 1800 rpm. Make sure you have an electronic voltage regulator on yours. It'll keep the voltage/current constant where it won't harm electronic equipment. Most of the small dudes are 3600 rpm and will shake their engines to death in about 20 hours or so. I only use mine for emergencey's and don't count on it to start ---ever!

I'm presently buildin up a genset with an older 3kw--3600 rpm alternator that the enigne died on. Beltin it up the the flywheel of a 6 cyl chevy engine and "gearin" it with a belt/shiv combination where the engine can run about 1200 rpm and the alternator runs at 3600. The reason I "ggeared" it to run at 1200 rpm is because of the expensive shivs I already had. I also had the chevy motor layin around and what good is an alternator without an engine!!!Don't know how it'll work but seems to be an option vs. the old way.

With a slow speed unit, constant propane vapor from the 500 gal tank, electric start and an auto transfer switch you should have a reliable, long lastin system. Spend a few extra bucks and make sure you get something you can count on when it's needed.

If I can be of any help--just holler. I don't know it all but I do know a bunch. old hoot.

That's the beauty of this place. Sooner or later someone comes along with the facts. I'd thought the commercial Generacs were worth the money. I know better now. Although the Lister-Petter gensets have a long-standing reputation for fantastic longevity and quality, to my knowledge, they don't make anything larger than maybe 15KV. So for something larger, what builders has your company found that sell a quality unit?

CAT.......Also, Onan makes a 3 cylinder diesel rated at 12.5 kw with a pure signwave output for 7600 from colorado standby.....fordy :)

Darren, I once had 2 Onan 3kw, twin cylinder, gas, 1800 rpm units that were made back in the 50s or 60s. Those things weighed a ton, but right up to 3kw, they held steady on freq & pretty darn close on voltage. They were not brushless alternators though...

The biggest problem in generating your own power, A.C. that is, maintaining frequency and then voltage. A light load, the engine races, frequency jumps to 62hz or more, then a load (like your well pump starting), and the frequency drops well into the low 50hz range. The worst offenders are these little 5kw units you mentioned in an earlier post - the price looks good, but stick a frequency counter on it, and watch it jump all over the place. This is what KILLS electric motors! (most digital multi-meters in the $100 price range now come with a frequency option - Fluke 77, etc.)

The belt driven idea works great for turning the thing, but without a sensitive governer to maintain engine/alternator speed - you got the same problem. My brother tried to hook up a 25kw unit to an automatic transmission on an old van chassis, he figured the engine could "just idle away" while the alternator hummed and churned out the power. 25kw of unusable power, frequency and voltage all over the place.

I'm sure Old Hoot as got something to fix that nasty speed problem, but if you belt up an alternator 2:1 off an engine (alternator runs 3600, engine runs 1800), every "error" in engine speed is DOUBLED to the alternator - doubling the frequency error of a 2 pole alternator. If you've worked on 'em, you know exactly what I'm referring to! (lost part of a finger experimenting with one as a teenager)

I have no idea who makes a good engine. Cast iron seems to last the longest, my 28yr old 20hp Wis. Robin was a REAL find, they don't make them that tough anymore. Old Hoot is absolutely right about copper windings! Even a burnt up alternator can be rewound with copper - just get done with the highest insulation rated wire. Who knows, manually rewinding sometimes yields higher outputs!

If I came across a 4 pole (1800rpm) 12kw brushless alternator - I'd jump on that thing in a heartbeat, then I'd look for an engine with a huge flywheel to run it.

No one has brought it up yet, but, Kirk, another option is to go DC, charge batteries, and use an good inverter to run your Dialysis machine. In my line of work, all our equipment runs off of 48vdc batteries. We use rectifiers (battery chargers) to convert 1 & 3 phase power to charge the batteries. There are _no_ power interruptions without someone getting fired.

check out http://homepower.com/ for ideas... Their magazine is well worth the it, these guys shunned the grid from the start.

http://www.realgoods.com/renew/index.cfm all kinds off the grid, back up power systems.
http://www.xantrex.com/products/supercat.asp?did=285 for inverter/chargers

This stuff has come so far in the last 5 years, the power they produce is cleaner than grid power.

sorry for all the long posts!

Runners!
 

Hey Runners! Yeah, I'm a figgerin on usin an Onan, brushless alternator and usin a 2" shiv on it and an 8" on the engine. Rpm will be close to 1200 but we won't know exactly until it's hooked up and makin juice. A 3:1 will get it close and we'll stabalize it with a mechanical govenour to start with. The tngine don't have to turn exactly 1200 but the alternator has to turn at 3600.

The engine is already set up for straight propane and also is a Jasper rebuilt engine.

I also have an OLD Onan [1948 vintage] used for Military use. A 5 kw, 120 output hooked to a Ford tractor motor [8n]. Heavier'n a battleship but its built like a brick ----house! I'll let ya'll know how things turn out--if they turn out!!! oldhoot.

OldHoot, if you can, go with a couple of belts, and large pulleys! The smaller the pulley, the more chance of belt slippage. That's how I lost part of my 3rd finger, trying to pull the alternator tighter - finger slipped inside and hit the fan. Calmly walked upstairs, told my mom, "I need to see a doctor" - didn't 'register' till she saw blood dripping, and SHE'S the one that nearly passed out! I could hardly stop laughing, and made a bigger mess!

Let me know what you do for a governer - pics or descriptions, that's the really tricky part! A big flywheel helps smooth out the hard starters (motors), but something's gotta regulate alternator speed... the next problem is voltage, but I'll bet you've got that handled already.

Just had a brainstorm.... careful... what if you could add flywheel weight to the alternator, where you really want it? ...Press a new shaft onto the alternator, making it a double shaft unit, flywheel on one end, belts on the other...?

Hey Run-!
 

I'm usin a large plate steel that will mount directly onto the engine flywheel and bolt where the pressure plate bolted. A Shaft centered, welded and balanced onto that plate. The 8" shiv slides onto the shaft. I would like to use larger shivs but these are very expensive and I already had these. Came off of oil field equipment. The 8" is a 4 "belter" and will try usin two for the alternator and two extra for an air comprossor.

I will start with a govenour from a stationary engine with mechanical linkate. I don't know how all this'll turn out as it's a hillbilly way of engineerin!! Try and see what happens!!!! If it works--fine--if not--back to the mind exercise!

I'm kinda just lettin things go right now because of the weather. Cold and snow outside here in S.E. IL. old hoot