"biggest threat to production ag", weeds resisting Roundu
 

Guess I can't edit and add a P to the end of Roundu

We've become dependent on Roundup, now it's starting to not work. I've also read bees dying is a big threat. Maybe our food supply isn't guaranteed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/bu...l?pagewanted=1

It's just like with antibiotics. Mother Nature will always win. :)

Round up resistant weeds was a given from the get go, Some of the problem weeds like mares tail had developed resistance to other herbicides previously. It will hurt the big guys relying on no till and chemicals to continually raise the same crops.

Nothing is EVER guarenteed.

Any plaint that is given a low dose of any herbicide will become resent to that herbicide. I know from experience. Always use the dose that is printed on the labile of the herbicide instead of scrimping on the herbicides. Another threat is honeybees I have noticed a lack of them this year. If they don't come back then you can kiss good by to most plaints and the fruit they bear.

Has the herbicides helped kill the bees? Just popped in my head. I have only seen 3 bumble bees so far this year and 0 yellow jackets. Sam

Exactly! Thank You!

Maybe big ag (and humans in general) ought to wake up and work WITH nature. Now theres a concept.

I have also heard it said >If there were no bees, in 4 years there would be no people<

I told this to a bee keeper and his response was, >It wouldnt be that long<.

Tom

It will hurt the consumer at the check out counter too.

I've read and heard this many times but never seen credible research that backs this up. Is there such research? I'm leaning toward not believing it.

Did weeds ever develop resistance to cultivators?

Maybe I can get a part-time job walking beans this year! The biggest summer money making jobs when I was a teen (late 70's) were walking beans and detassling corn!

My Grandfather kept that tradition going LONG after other farmers were spraying, unfortunately the farmer who now farms our crop land for us does not do the same.

Emmy

"Big" farmers don't have much choice there.

When you spend $250,000 for a combine, you grow grain
When you have $500,000 worth of cotton equipment, you grow cotton

Switching to other crops just isn't realistic

Too bad the reporter and newspaper didn't do the article on the use of glyphosate instead of singling out one particular brand of glyphosate. That is kind of like doing an article on Bayer instead of simply on aspirin.

Too bad farmers haven't heeded advisory warnings to rotate crops which often use different weed sprays if any at all, and to also switch herbicides or use combinations from time to time. Here in Kansas we are hearing very few reports on resistant weeds.

I appreciate the work honey bees do but have strong doubt that there is the need as some would indicate. I base that on the knowledge that western Kansas has had low honey bee populations for a half century or more. Whether they are simply not there because of harsh winters or from dry summers or a combination of both I don't know. I do know that even bee keepers struggle to maintain hives and have to do a lot of feeding of them as nature doesn't provide enough to sustain them.

You can get a job doing that around here. Mr Remus and the Johnsons both hire summer folk to do that.

It is nice to see that in some parts of this country some folks are still doing it the right way!! I loved walking beans when I was a teen, to be outside all day and not stuck behind the counter at the Dairy Queen was wonderful!!

Plus I made $5 an HOUR, the girls at DQ made like $2 an hour!

Emmy

I forget the exact figure but I think it's somewhere around 1/4 or 1/3 of our food is dependent on bee pollination. That includes all bees not just honeybees.

Considering how close we are to the intersection of food supply and food demand we are in a very dangerous position. We really need to stabilize and then reduce our population before we pass that intersection or bombs and bullets will start flying.

Windy,
You are right they have been warning about round up resistance and advising to rotate crops. Kansas is like Oklahoma with a lot of winter wheat in the crop mix. No RR winter wheat yet and rotating crops and crop growing seasons plays an important part in weed build up and resistance.

It was recently announced here that stands of RR resistant Giant Ragweed have been found in some farmers fields. Just that they exist,and so far, no plan on how to deal with them.

Anyone who's ever taken even a high-school level biology should know evolution of resistance was only a matter of time.

Yup. Mother nature will always trump what human nature can concieve.

Flame is a good way to go when possible.
Unfortunately the cost of portable flame has gone up in the past 10's of yrs.
Few plants have evolved a resistance to flame (yes I know about some pines that need high temps of flames to open their pine cones to release seeds).
And flame leaves no un-natural chemicals behind.
It does have draw backs like not being able to use around some types of rock which if heated enough will burst from rapid water expansion,
jim

P.S. I'll let you go on that "add a P to the end of Roundu".
So many jokes.
So little time.
:bouncy:

Are they foods we are so dependent upon that there would be no people left four years or less (as the person I quoted is saying) after the bees are gone? The only personal experience I have is what I do on two acres. Trying to picture what happens with this RU problem and the loss of bees at the same time isn't something I understand. The idea of this combination makes me grateful that I'm able to grow most of our food right here.

I doubt that the loss of pollination would result in outright starvation of the human population but it would throw a major wrench into our food supply and the effects would spread throughout the world. Losing such a significant amount of food could lead to armed conflicts over food supplies.

I suspect that proposed dust regulations, emissions regulations already in effect on new ag equipment and fuel prices are a far bigger short term threat to production agriculture than Glyphosate resistance.

I wonder if the Monsanto lawyers know that Roundup ready seeds are being distributed without paying them a royalty? Maybe they should sue Mother Nature.

You beat me to it - exactly. The regulations in the USA - and in Europe - will efectivly end crop & livestock production in the USA. Brazil will need to clearcut their whole forest & we will get all our food from Brazil, Argineta, and Russia.

You all realize the EPA has just decided milk is equally as hazardous as diesel fuel, and so if you store more than 1200 or so gallons of these fluids on your farm you need to go through a whole set of inspections & worksheets every few years?

My neighbor raises hogs, and he is now required to remove a tile intake along his driveway, because if he hauls hogs off his place, they _may_ poop, and it's possible that poop might slide off the trailer, and it might just possibly end up a little bit of that hog poop may possibly get washed over to where the tile intake is. This is part of the 41 pages of forms he has to fill out to conform to the EPA/USDA regulations.

Now you say, who has 1200 gallons of milk, we all should just have 2 cows, shouldn't be any large dairies.

But you see; if you have 250 gallons of fuel oil for your furnace in a northern climate, and 300 gallons of diesel fuel for your tractors, and 300 gallons of gasoline for the smaller tractors & small engines, you are up to 850 gallons of 'bad' fluids already. And frankly, those are pretty small tanks any more? Now, all of a sudden, your bulk milk tank of 500 gallons has made you a serious eccological hazard, and you need to fill out another 21 pages of regulations & be inspected & pay fees.

Even if this doesn't affect you today - it will some day.

And it will make food cost more. So it affects you today as well.

Milk is a deadly hazard......



Weeds have gotten resistant to 24D, Persuit, and many other herbicides. Of course some will become resistant to glyphosate (Roundup).

So what? It's only natural.

What's the big deal about it? Cultivators still work, some of the older chemicals still work.

Ignite is one of the newer chemicals, it will work.

The poeple of the USA have spoken, and they say, loudly, that they want _CHEAP_ food. They speak with their billfolds, and that is what they demand.

Interview them on the street, and yea, healthy, clean, safe, blah blah blah.... But when they _really_ talk, en mass, with thier wallets, they say "We want _CHEAP_ food."

So, farmers have learned to grow food cheaply.

Currently, using glyphosate (Roundup is one) is the cheapest route to making several grains.

If Roundup is no longer effective, we will just use some other way - Ignite, Valor, 24D, a cultivator, someone walking beans....

Whatever.

This is no major crisis. It is the natural progression.

Farmers use the cheapest tools available to produce a big volume of feed & food. If something better comes along, we'll go to that. If something we use stops working, we'll switch to the next best thing.

There just isn't any story here.

For those who hate Monsanto & Roundup, this should be good news. It means things will change, the use of Monsanto's products will fall off.

I just don't see the story here?

--->Paul

If roundup is ineffective these days then what is the best one to use for killing weeds/grass? I'm looking for the most powerful stuff available and able to be applied with a sprayer.

Thanks

Roundup still works on most weeds and grass.There are liberty link seeds out there now,and you can spray them with ignite herbicide.Works just as good as roundup.The scientist work to stay ahead of mother nature the best they can.

I think the resistance originates in this manner ... within a specie of weeds there is genetic variation and some individuals within the specie are resistant naturally to a particular herbicide. if you spray a field and a few individuals survive, then these plants would have resistance that is transferred to the next generation. In the soil you have a seed bank which is composed of viable seed which in some weed species can consist of seed that is 15 years old. So each year you stir up the soil you have seed from last years crop plus seed from previous crops germinating. If you continue using the same pesticide then you only have seeds resistant to the pesticide returned to the soil seed bank. After some years the seed bank becomes essentially replaced by seeds resistant to the herbicide. The only way to slow this is to use other weed control methods which will not allow these resistant individuals to escape. Since so many crops have been made roundup ready, we now will be faced with a huge problem. Crop rotation using various weed control measures for each crop is the best deterrent to this problem !

I gotta ask :) Walking the beans ? Is that to pollinate them ?

Randy

Randy they are looking for weeds that were not killed by the herbicide. And they possibly have another herbicide to spot treat these escaped weeds with.

Funny I dont ever remember any supermarket giving me the option/choice of high quality food at any price..... So exactly how do I speak with my wallet when there isnt any high quality food offered?

Sort of like saying people wont vote for a third political party. Well when you exclude them from the debates, make it impossibly hard to get on the ballot, and so one, its a self fulfilling prophecy.

As to food, its more profitable to sell a lot of "cheap" low quality food at high markup than moderate amount of high quality food at lower markup. If you try to sell high quality food at high markup, fact of life, only the well to do can afford it.

However there is a price for low quality "cheap" food in increased amounts of health care needed and lost productivity of workers trying to live on it.

There are so many regulations on farming that it will not be able to survive in the US on a large scale and will be outsourced like the jobs that have gone off shorer. All you need to look at is California and the regulations their.

Dang, if you had lived 150 years ago you could have trumped Darwin! :)

Randy, "walking beans" means walking the entire field cutting out the weeds with either a very sharp hoe or a bean hook. All the years I walked beans we took the three rows on either side of the row we were walking down cutting out each and every weed growing in those rows.

Walking beans as Johnny D. suggests does not mean walking around looking for weeds and figuring out what different herbicide to use!!!

Emmy

Before Roundup days, we 'walked the beans" with a mower section(triangular blade) screwed to a slot on the end of an old broomstick, to slice off any stray weeds that the tractor cultivator had missed. The beans were already blossomed out and were just starting to pod up. Slicing off the weeds meant they wouldn't grow back fast enough by harvest time to pose any problems to the combine, plus there was a likelihood they wouldn't go to seed before frost got them.

That was my first paying summertime job--for $.75/hr.......... after proving myself worthy to the farmer by cleaning out his pig barns with a scoop shovel......

geo

OK .... I am writing a response to the Noah's ark thread (not done yet) and you shall see that I have little time for Darwin and his theory!!!

There is a diverse gene pool and there is some micro evolution but no macro evolution JMO and I have lots of years of studying the theory of evolution.

:indif:

OK sorry .... I admit I was just guessing...... but when you walk the rows you are really doing so to remove weeds missed by whatever weed control methods you have employed ? .... rather than using hand tools as the primary method of weed control ????

I was equating "walking the beans" with "scouting" .... and looks like I was wrong ?????

When you scout you are looking for weeds missed by the present weed control methods.... you are looking for these weeds with intent to destroy them so that they do not compete with the present crop and so they do not produce seed which would germinate in succeeding crops.

My Grandfather did not use herbicide back in the 70's, he ran the cultivator through when the beans were still small enough, from that point until the beans were to tall and thick to walk through the only method to get rid of weeds was "walking beans".

I walked for another farmer the first summer I was in college, he wait WAY to late and we waded through the rows with beans up to our armpits and weeds several feet over our heads...it was brutal!! But he, like my Gramps, paid $5.00 an hour and that was a LOT of money in the early 80's!!

Emmy

There are no stupid questions, but there is no worthwhile simple & short answer to your question.....

First of all, glyphosate is still very effective. There are perhaps 8-9 species of weeds that have developed tolerance to it in localized areas. Obviously that is an issue, and those weeds & areas will expand. But, for now, it is still a good killer of almost any green plant. The issue of resistance is showing up, but not a nationwide nor terrible problem.

Weeds can be grouped into 2 main types - grasses, and broadleaves.

There are litterally 100's of cheminals that will kill either one, and very effectively.

The question is, what crop do you _not_ want to kill? It is easy to kill off a grass weed in a broadleaf crop like soybeans, cotton, etc.

It is easy to kill off a broadleaf weed like milkweed or lambsquarters in a grass crop like corn or wheat.

The hard part is killing a weed that is similar to the crop you don't want to harm. Killing a grass weed in a grass crop for example. Atrizine is a real good grass killer in corn, but it has some EPA issues and likely will be outlawed soon. There have been several good broadleaft weed killers that worked in soybeans, but the broadleaf weeds tend to develop resistance _very_ quickly to those - like Persuit. It worked great for 2-3 years - then it didn't seem to kill enough weeds to be worthwhile.

In many cases you can put down a weed killer before planting, or before the crop comes up, and it will not harm the crop, but it will keep the weeds of that type from sprouting.

All of this takes time, management, and planning.

The appeal of GMO crops with Roundup is that you can plant the special seeds, and then spray the field whenever the weeds show up, at any size, and take care of the weed problem. Rain or wind prevents you from spraying, no problem can spray the following week. Many older sprays, you need to spray the weeds when they are tiny, or you can't spray the crop if it is too big.

So Roundup & GMO seeds made weed control easy. Cheap. Simple. Any dummy can do it.

Naturally, that won't work forever. Nature will find a way around it, as it always does. So some resistance is showing up.

The way to fight that resistance is to come up with new sprays, or go back to old sprays that affect weeds differently, and kill them in different ways.

That will take more mangement, more time, more cost, and some years might leave weedy fields when things don't work right.

'Ignite' also known as 'Liberty Link' is a new idea in soybeans, it uses special seeds again, and the spray will kill most any other green plant. It works differently than Roundup, and it won't work so well on big weeds or on grasses, but it works well at this point and is different than Roundup.

So, I still don't see the earth-shattering problem with this all? Sure, some weeds are getting glysophate resistant. Then, like always, you just use something else to kill the weeds. anyone in ag knew this would happen.

Glysophate is just a tool, and all our tools break or change or wear out over time. Have to move on to another tool from time to time.

It's noteworthy, but not earth shattering. It does _NOT_ create super-weeds, as some media tries to proclaim.

There are 100's of weed control chemicals, plus tillage & cultivators, plus a few flamers. With all those options weeds will still be controlled just fine. Roundup made weed control _easy_, but all the other options still work, including walking the beans, and the old sprays, and cultivating.

--->Paul

--->Paul