Foundation and Floor Troubles WWYD?

Ok, I'm probably going to showcase my ingorance here - my DH is th brains behind any large home rennovations we do and we, too, are facing jacking the back portion of our house up to replace a foundation wall.

But if you're worried about the joists cracking, can't you sister them with new joists and then use the new ones for jacking the house? Is that a stupid question?

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Anne
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I am going to add a word of advice here. Be sure as you are doing this add fire stops, and if you have more than one ceiling, as most very old houses do, try to take it back to one ceiling. My BIL's house was a house that had been in the family for three generations. Through out the 70+ years it had been "renovated" and added onto many times. I remodled one of the bathrooms a few years ago, and even though I was fought, I refused to do the work if I couldn't replace rotted wood, and add the proper stops and supports for the floor, walls, and ceilings. Had what I had done, been done for the rest of the house when they "renovated" they would have only lost one room of the house (according to the FD). Instead the fire traveled between the 2nd and 3rd ceilings and through the walls, the fire department couldn't see the fires burning in the ceilings and walls, and the house was a total loss minus one bathroom (thats still functional and we demo the remains). Macybaby and PhilJohnson, I do have to give credit to you, I have many years of construcion and remodeling under my belt and I am pretty sure that what you are doing would be daunting for almost anyone, keep up the good work, it looks great.

Phil,

I did something that had a few of the same issues as you are facing. In my case, my grandparents house, built in 1946, was built on piers with 2x6 joists with a 12 foot spann, half the house width. The piers were shifting and the joists, and beams were all sagging to various degrees, some as much as 3 or 3.5 inches. We jacked it up and moved it to a solid, level foundation. I repaired a couple of rotted joists. When we set the hous on the foundation it took almost a year for one corner to relax down solit on the foundation. I had to adjust the shems under the central beam several times to get the lengthwise sags out. After I got the central beam in pretty good shap, I went back and put 4x6"" beam in under the center of the joist spans on each side of the house, with concrete floor jacks spaced 4 to 6 feet apart, depending on the problem areas. In some areas, I again had to tighten, wait, tighten, wait to get the floors level. Worked pretty good. But I would never try that without the walls and ceilings were tounge and groove. I think that it would have broken plaster or sheet rock up. Was not easy, but my wife was adamant that she wanted the old house added to our house for sentimental reasons. We were married in the den of my grandparents house.

I think the best I could hope for is to get the floor somewhat level first and use the sister technique to fix any broken joist. The reason why I can't jack up on new joist first is because the floor won't allow the new joist to be level. Even if I tore out the floor I still wouldn't get much help since from all my investigating it seems that the walls on the first floor are built in a more conventional manner (ie they don't not go down against the M.I.A sill plate but instead sit atop the floor). If this house was built with the joist nailed to the 2x4s on the bottom like Cathy's house, straightening the floor would be a much more straight forward task.

I took a few more pictures today of the foundation.



This is a close up shot of an area I took a picture of earlier. The two by fours nailed to the joist are for a subfloor. The bathroom lies above this. Unlike the addition I tore off the house the studs in the original house do not go all the way down to the non existent sill.



This is the exit to the outside. Somewhere along the line someone tried to level out the floor by pounding some shims underneath the joist. Since the board below it is only an inch and a half tall this did nothing besides make the basement door harder to shut. I also believe this is why the floor sags so bad on this side. There is nothing supporting the joist over the whole span of the doorway.



In this shot you can see the foundation pushing against the joist. It is bowed outward towards the bottom and somewhat twisted.



As one can clearly see in this shot there is no sill at all. The joist just sit on top of the foundation. What is amazing is that there is no rot along the bottoms of the joist. I am pretty sure this sort of construction would not pass code if it was built today.



More hackjob style fixes. Since the original builders in their infinite wisdom decided to set the joist squarely on the foundation there was no way to get a heating duct near the west wall. I am sure the same hack who skillfully axed their way through on the south sill to make room for the heating duct also hacked away at the foundation to clear the heater vent. Because the ground is actually higher than the top of the foundation on this side of the house this allowed rain run off to pour into the basement. There is a pile of dirt directly underneath this from the rain running down the foundation wall. Also there are small blades of grass now growing on top of the foundation walls. The east side is like this as well but for a different reason. They had to get power and gas lines into the house some how and the laziest way to do it was to chip away at the foundation. The hole on that side of the house is large enough for a big ground hog to get through (don't ask me how I know this). It is also large enough for snow to blow into the basement.



This is the space between the outer most joist and the second from the outer most joist. Look closely on the right and you can see small blades of grass growing. Once again I amazed there isn't any rot.



Most if not all the entire north side is like this. I believe they did it in a very poorly contrived notion that it would some how make the house more air tight. In reality all the wind from the north just blows through the crappy windows and the cracks in the walls. I plan on knocking this all out. This is also the reason why I believe the floor is so wonky on this side of the house. As the center of the house sagged over time these darn rocks were pushing on the floor causing the edges of the floor to remain somewhat flat unlike the rest of the floor.



Another view of the outside of the house. As one can tell this house isn't all that big but with that said it is still a big project for a single DIY'er like myself. Last year I tackled the roof and this year I am hoping to get this darn basement business squared away.

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I would burn or doze the "house" and live in the car....seriously....

Naahh, the house has character man !! And the car is a classic Willys. I am of the notion that if you buy something no one sees as valuable you get a better deal and just about anything you do will be seen as a good improvement job.

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Phil-

Looking at the last pic you posted: Are your floor joists all the same height? Or have each of them been cut to fit the unlevel rock foundation? If this is the case, you might have a 2 x 10 next to a 2 x 9 and then a 2 x 11.

This could spell a more difficult repair job, BTW, but you prolly already knew that.

Also...what are the problems with the foundation? Has it shifted, or has the house settled? Is it a grade problem? Is it simply because of poor hack jobs in the past? All of the above?

Three other questions: Still got the Packard? Still have the 47/48 GMC truck? Have you tried running waste motor oil in your Ford Diesel yet?

Good question, I have no idea. I'd like to think that the original builders at least got that one right.

It is indeed all of the above. The real question for me is if I want to jack up the whole works or just straighten out a few sections as best I can and put in a subfloor to level everything. As far as the grade problem goes on three sides I can take care of it but the west side where the dirt is piled up the worst I can't do much. So instead I might opt for replacing the outer sill and some of the lower planking with treated lumber and tar over it. Plus I want to put a small cement wall that sort of wraps around the bottom part of the house and along the foundation.

The Packard I manage to sneak in a couple rides here and there but I did give it to my Dad for his birthday so it is no longer mine. I sold the 51 GMC last year to help pay for a roof on the house. While I still miss it was necessary, that old truck wasn't going to keep the rain out of my house The F-250 I've been running a mixture that is roughly 80 percent drain oil. First time I tried it the fuel filter plugged right up. The fuel filter though looked like it hadn't been replaced in 20 years so it was a good bet sooner than later it was going to cause me trouble. I filter the oil out as best I can but it takes a while. Also I've had more trouble securing a good source of drain oil. Most of the shops keep old oil for themselves. The truck itself runs the same on either drain oil or diesel but drain oil is more smokey. It also smells worse and there is a little less power. I can live with the trade-off though. I want to try veggie oil sometime this summer and see how well that works.

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Phil-

On the foundation: In one of your earlier post you mentioned that the builders didn't put a sill plate in on the foundation. I think that was pretty common for the day. I have a 1927 bungalow on a block foundation, and there is not a sill plate anywhere in the house.

FWIW, I think you ought to try to get the whole house level, as best you are able to, instead of sections here and there.

I've seen old homes that have sub-floors laid over uneven joists...it is a cover up job that never seems to last.

I'm also wondering how much of the foundation problems were caused by broken guttering, or the lack of guttering all together? That roof is a large area that catches water, and dumps it right into the foundation. I've seen more than a few houses that had severe problems due to guttering issues.

What happens if you completely jack up the house, and remove the old foundation, and lay a new foundation under it?

Thanks for answering the car questions! I would have given my eye teeth for that old GMC.

If you have severely bowed joists,

and your planing on using some Ibeams under to level and lift,

do it slowly, to take 3 or 4 inches out may take a few months up to a year to take the bow out with breaking, but get the I beam under the area, and most likely you will need a number of 20 or more ton jacks, and some wide footings areas, and slowly start to jack, and when you get to the joist, take no more than 1/2 inch out at one time, and do it only evey few weeks,
and do not depend on the jacks put blocks under the beams as they go up,

same way in straighting a building out, do it slowly, it did not get there over night so do not try to straighten it all out in one pass,