10% alcohol fuel and a 20+year old chainsaw
 

I have two old Shindaiwa chainsaws. Nice saws, good as any Swedish or German saw of that era. Last year fuel lines on one dissolved. This year the other. Only 10% alcohol gas available starting last year. Coincidence, I think not. Just turns the fuel line into soft muck.

I can still get the factory replacement bottom fuel tube, but NOBODY will say if the replacements are alcohol resistant or not. My guess is that its just NOS (new old stock) thats been on shelf so maybe not.

And you cant just use regular generic fuel line as Shindaiwa made this like 1 inch hole. The pickup tube is this rubber cork thingie with fuel line and filter attached. Has groove that the plastic tank around the hole fits into. Then you put the little elbow on the upper fuel line into little hole in center of it which expands it into tight fit. Actually kinda clever, BUT not if I am going to have to replace it every year cause nobody re-engineered the lines to be alcohol resistant. And tank of course is plastic. It seems not harmed by alcohol, but being plastic makes it nearly impossible to modify.

What I'd like to do is plug this hole with fitting on bottom and one on top that would let me use alcohol reisistant generic fuel line. But how to attach it to the tank without leaks? No adhesive bonds to these plastic tanks. It would have to be some sort of sandwich type plug. Ideas?

Rather than rubber cork like Shindaiwa used, if I were engineering it and had to use plastic tank, better to mold tank so a plug with a fitting screwed into the tank then use generic fuel line. but then that would cost 50cents more per chainsaw.....

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1...500diagram.gif

The piece I am talking about is 22128-85330 in above diagram. The other part of fuel line can actually be replaced with generic bulk fuel line.

We don't have to buy that crap here in Oklahoma. About half the stations have real gasoline.
Can't you just avoid the inferior fuel?

Gas stations around here have signs up on pump that "gasoline MAY contain upto 10% alcohol" But pretty sure it nearly all has alcohol in it around here. No real way of knowing since they dont label one pump "with alcohol" and one pump "without alcohol".

Its coming to a gas station near you if you havent got it already. Alcohol is being used to replace some nasty chemical that has been used in gasoline for some time and which is very bad about contaminating ground water. I dont like gasohol, but rather deal with it than have my well or anybody else's well contaminated. Most modern stuff can handle gasohol by design. Old all metal stuff can handle it. Its that mr. inbetween era stuff that has problems. Plastic and rubber that can handle gas but cant handle alcohol.

Anyway since I have no way of knowing if gasoline actually contains alcohol or not, I have to assume it does and need to make fuel system capable of dealing with it.

Anybody have a notion whether a rubber lab stopper can handle alcohol and gasoline? I think I can make my own compression fitting to seal big factory hole in gas tank with stopper and a stove bolt and couple washers.

Can you reduce the damage? For example, when through dump any remaining fuel in tank and then run saw until all of the fuel in it is consumed.

Keep a 5-gallon gasoline container in your vehicle. When you see alcohol free gas, fill it up.

I once saw someone jury rig a fitting. He drilled a bolt lengthwise. Then inside the tank went the bolt, rubber under it, a large flat washer, rubber under it and tank. Bottom was reverse. Line then went over bolt threads and clamped off.

My Shindig locked up w/ gasohol:grumble:, so I fixed it and used it w/ straight gas that I was able to find. It locked up again.:censored: I now have an Echo and a Stihl. Your patch job idea seems to me to be worth a try. Sorry I'm not much help.

I try to empty and clean saws before they set for long periods, but doing that each and every time I use one isnt going to happen.

I dont see "alcohol-free gas" signs anywhere in my area. As I say around here they post "MAY contain upto 10% ethanol" on every pump so even if they got a load of alcohol-free, no way I would know it.

Yea something like your friends solution but would have to find some alcohol friendly rubber. Probably something salvaged off emissions stuff or possibly couple chunks of gas tank filler neck hose. I know regular rubber wouldnt hold up.

I think once you lock a chainsaw engine up, you pretty much have to rebuild it with new cylinder and piston. Or get another saw. Even if you get a seized engine broke free again, there will be lot scuffing and scratches on cylinder.

I have an old Roper I used before I got the Shindaiwas. Been using it some recently, runs, but needs carb kit. Not big surprise as its set lot years. No chain brake and its on the heavy side so not safest saw out there though its a good cutter. I already replaced the fuel line with modern bulk line on it few years back. And I have a bargain Craftsman-Poulan 3.3 that I picked up really cheap way back then never used it. Ran well when I bought it, but imagine it needs carb kit and new fuel line in it. Probably some other old saws out in my stash of stuff, but take lot messing to get one going then wouldnt be particularly reliable. The Shindaiwas have been very reliable and good cutters. No messing with them constantly.

Most of the Exxion Stations in Arkansas have regular gas not the blended. Some of them do have blended but not many. I use the Exxion from Clinton and from Harrison and have no problem with them.

I think Permatex RTV would probably work well:

http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...sket_Maker.htm

They have been running 10% alcohol here for 20 years and I've never had a problem. Could it be due to the fact that your fuel lines were 20 years old?

BTW, I'm running a Stihl made in the 70's.

The gas lines on my Stihl saws are very similiar. I'm at work and not sure of the size of the hole they go through in the gas tank but it is very close. Also Stihl had a lot of problems with the new gas disolving their gas lines. They changed the composition of the gas lines. The new material designed for the newly formulated gas are green colored lines. If I was in your place I would check with a Stihl dealer with your old line in hand. John

Thanks for the info. Hole in tank is just shade over 3/4 inch, sure there is an exact metric metric size, but measuring tape that is handy only has American and I am too lazy to hunt up something with metric on it.

As much as I seem to like to re-engineer stuff, on something like this really rather do it the factory way, but not wanting to take this apart every little bit so have to make it alcohol resistant first time out.

Age tends to make lines brittle so they crack, leak gas, and suck air. Age doesnt make lines dissolve into black goo like mine did.

And could your success be due to the fact that your saws have newer Stihl "green fuel line" as poster "Caz" suggested to me? Apparently Stihl is on the ball. Japanese companies tend to set rather short factory support period for their products, whether cars or chainsaws, and dont go back and re-engineer 10+ year old parts to meet changing conditions. They consider lifespan over for product at that point and you should buy new and improved.

I've certainly used silicone on things like oil pan gaskets and valve cover gaskets to very good effect as long as surfaces its applied to are spotlessly clean and oil free. Once cured, then its oil resistant. Silicone has been oil resistant for decades. However in my experience, its not the thing to use around gasoline. Just doesnt hold up. Its motor oil resistant, but not gasoline resistant. Plain non-alcohol gasoline eats it up, so however good it is with alcohol (?), the gasoline component of fuel will eat it.

But for how long is alcohol free gas going to be available assuming it is available at my local Exxon station? I think the alcohol blends are going to be around long time and will be the rule rather than the exception. Better if possible just to make my saw's fuel line alcohol friendly now than having to continually seek out the holy grail of non-alcohol gasoline.

Hmmm...interesting... We have an old Homelite saw from '86 and we've been running it on 20% alcohol fuel with NO problems at all. Fuel lines are fine, carburetor is fine. Our 2 year old Stihl saw just passed its break-in period and it has been running on 10% alcohol fuel with no problems either.

When our made-in-china Husqvarna saw seized up 1 hour after the first time we fired it up, we finished the job with the Homelite. Obviously, the made-in-china piece of crap was returned the next day.

I'm not a chainsaw expert, but I think a LOT has to do with the manufacturer and the types of parts they use. Which is the reason why we keep that old, heavy, well-used Homelite around. Made in the USA used to mean something...

RVcook

RVcook

What a waste of time. Been looking at various fuel tank grommets and most of them are just some part number and no specs. Closest Stihl part I found pic for is 4112-350-3500 for an FS80 trimmer and it does look like the Shindaiwa part, but no idea if same size. And nobody has the genuine Stihl part, they are either translated into an Oregon part number or a Stens part number. Or some mystery part of unknown origin. The Stens at least gives the disclaimer that its not to be used with fuel having alcohol content over 5%.

Did find a Kawasaki two hole 15/16 inch fuel tank grommet with the lines attached. No idea what its for and they want over $16 for it.

At this point am thinking maybe get the original Shindaiwa replacement, cut off the fuel line, just using the grommet part. Insert grommet into the hole in tank, then force a short lenght of 1/8 copper pipe through the hole. Connect the aftermarket bulk fuel line to the copper pipe at both ends. It eliminates problem with fuel line disintegrating/collapsing/dissolving. The grommet part probably disintegrate like current one, but maybe last few years????

I see more and more stations with signs " NO ETHANOL " . People tend to avoid the other stations even though the fuel is usually 4 or 5 cents cheaper.( You lose it on the poor milage anyway).
I don't believe we have to accept that it will eventually be in all fuel as people realize how stupid it is.

Anything sold new in the last 10 to 15 years should be compatible with alcohol thus not surprising your 2 year old Stihl works fine.

As to your antique Homelite (well I dont consider 80s era that old), are you really claiming it has never had fuel line replaced or a new carb kit? If so then all I can say is wow, they sure knew how to build them back then......

If it has been replaced in last 20 years, then I assume it was with alcohol resistant carb parts and modern bulk fuel line. Thus no problem with alcohol disintegrating them....

And I can appreciate old saw, mentioned my old Roper (from early 70s I think) which still cuts well, but I replaced line with modern alcohol resistant bulk line and am about to rebuild the carb on it once again. The old saws however are heavy and have no safety built in like chain brake. And yep chain brake has saved me from several injuries. Hmm, when did Homelite start using chain brake, they went forever with the little funny shield on end of bar as excuse not to though everybody that bought one immediately removed the shield. The old Homelite SuperXL was decent saw by way, design probably very comparable to the Roper. Homelite and McCulloch both killed themselves off by competing for cheap saw market and forgetting their professional saw market. At one point they sold professional saws with good reputation and if they had focussed on engineering and quality, could have competed with the Swedish and German companies, but instead tried to cheapen what they did sell. The Mexican made McCullochs were a sad thing to see. Roper and Poulan and Pioneer were smaller companies and bought up by Electrolux conglomerate who also finally bought Husqvarna. They ruined the Poulan reputation making it into cheap consumer level name like Homelite and McCulloch did with theirs. And they just dropped the Roper and Pioneer and other small independent names they had bought. Their cheap stuff got sold as Poulan and the higher end stuff as Husqvarna.

Back when I attended the Jonsered school we told that alcohol and 2 cycle engines was strict no-no. The alcohol breaks down your oil. If you have to use ethanol I suggest you mix a bit heavier- 30-1 instead of 40-1 for instance. Plugs will foul more and she may not rev as high, but I think it's worth it.

Well, it was made in the 70's. I replaced a diaphragm a coupler years ago but I chalk that up to age and wear and tear.

As far as I know, no rebuilds on the Homelite! The saw was my father's who used it mostly for yard clean up and on occasion for some of his landscaping jobs. It was in very good shape when we received it and other than losing the spark plug boot, the thing just runs and runs without issue. Of course it is really hard starting and weighs a TON (especially when compared to our newer Stihl), but for a lower-end model (cost about $85 in the 80's), the saw has earned its keep and then some. 'Antique' is a relative term since I too have been conditioned to expect that I'll be forced to replace it in less than 5 years of use...ughh!!!!

DH likes the reliability so much, he bought an identical one used (which also runs like a champ) just for parts!

You're right about cheapening the product brand by trying to compete with a lower-end consumer market. We were sorely disappointed with the Husky...OK, completely ticked-off is probably a better explanation. As companies try for a bigger share of the market, we have just come to expect that what was a reliable brand in the past has little or nothing to do with the brand now. Electrolux (vacuums) buying Husqvarna is akin to AMF (bowling balls) buying Harley-Davidson.

RVcook

My Shindaiwas are older and both say 25:1 right on the saw. I've had no problem with plug fouling. I use the 25:1 mix for my Roper too though imagine company probably recommended 16:1 or maybe 20:1 for it back in the day. Course way back in 60s and early 70s then there wasnt 2cycle oil, you used non-detergent 30w motor oil to mix with the gas.

And its just the times, when there is no way to know if alcohol is in the gas, you can either stop using gas altogether and just toss the saw on the scrap heap, or use it and live with whatever happens. I'll use it until saws stop working then find another saw I guess, probably a saw thats designed to use it.

Well finally decided to buy the Shindaiwa part of fuel line with the molded in grommet. Ordered 2 of them and with shipping cost close to $20. Like I said, will just use the grommet part, cut off the hose and run piece metal line through the hole, then attach bulk line to the metal on both ends. I tried to think up other homemade work arounds but this way is far less time consuming and pretty sure to work for a while until grommet dissolves. If I am real lucky the new line will be alcohol friendly and this wont be problem rest of life of the saw.

I've made plugs out of RTV silicone, that don't dissolve or leak, provided it was minimal fuel pressure.

Just an aside... My wife an I purchased a hybrid vehicle 2 years ago... 1st new car we have ever had.....it got great gas milage. Then the state madated 10% ethanol. In order to see how well the hybrid worked we keep detailed fill-up and milage reports.

We get 10% LESS mpg with 10%-ethanol than with regular.

Please help me with this figuring...in case I am messing up. If I use 10% more gas to drive the same miles, then I am using 9% more petroleum. That is, I must buy 110 gallons of 10%ethanol to drive the same distance I would drive with 100 gallons of straight gasoline. 90 gallons of the original 100 is petroleum, and 9 gallons of the extra 10 gallons is petroleum. I have, in fact, then saved only 1 gallon of petoleum and burned 11 extra gallons of ethanol, to go the same milage. How is this beneficail to either the environment or the trade deficit.... especially when the farmer used petroleum to plant harvest and fertilize that corn. I am pro-farmer, but this is ridiculous.

oh, btw, I like to use epoxy for the new fitting and some non-alcohol-deteriorating rubber fuel tubing.

Ethanol is mostly a boondoggle, benefitting corn growers, ethanol producers and corn state Politicians.

Taxpayers and vehicle owners mostly take it in the shorts.

Ethanol is doing nothing to reduce our dependance on foreign oil.

These plastic gas tanks arent friendly to any known adhesive, at least not any available to average person. If replacement tank werent so expensive, I might experiment using soldering iron to "plastic weld" a patch in the hole. I have had good luck doing this with plastic battery cases and even with common 5 gallon plastic bucket. But take some experimenting if this gas tank is a kind of plastic that this would be possible. I suppose theoretically possible to make a replacement tank from bent and soldered sheet metal.

I am not fond of alcohol fuels but one has to deal with whats available in real world, not what one wishes were available.

I cant see where an electric vehicle or a hybrid electric vehicle will ever be practical or economical to my circumstances. I drive so few miles anymore, even if gas went to $10 a gallon, it wouldnt impact me in fueling my vehicles that much, just on big price increase on supplies I buy. In that case, I might start driving zero miles just cause it would be pointless to go to town.

Ethanol made from CORN is doing nothing.... I can see where if experiments to make ethanol from algae are successful, that could be economical and energy positive. Corn grown in this country itself is petroleum dependent, from the chemicals used to grow it to the diesel used for tractors to plant and harvest it to the transportation costs of moving it around.

To find out if there's alcohol in the gas get a graduated tube of some sort or a a measuring cup. Add, for instance, 3 cc of fuel and then add 3cc of water. If the water isn't separating from the fuel at the 3cc mark then you have alcohol in the fuel. The higher the separation line, the more alcohol since the alcohol will mix with the water.


To the best of my knowledge there are no 2 cycle engines "made for' ethanol fuels. There are some that give a certain warranty as long as you run the named oil at the proper mix. What you need to find is an oil that resists alcohols characteristics. I'd look around www.aboristsite.com for more info.

Nice trick with the graduated cylinder, but when gas at pump is labelled "MAY contain...", do I just go around to all the gas stations on a particular day and ask to test their gas? Unless gas is sold "contains NO alcohol", its really a losing game.

I should have said alcohol tolerant, not made specifically FOR alcohol. If any manufacturers have their heads so deep in sand they cant understand alcohol is fact of life, then they simply wont sell many saws in the brave new world where ALL gasoline will be an alcohol blend. I think already they are actually working on 4cycle chainsaws as EPA hates 2cycle. Dont they already have couple trimmers or blowers out there with 4cycle?

I would never consider mixing gas 40:1.... 30:1 is the max..and I like 25:1 even better... I will spend an extra 50 cents to make sure it has plenty of oil mix in the fuel...

I have never, ever ruined a saw...and Most stations all have the ethanol fuel:grit:..I think Marathon advertised that they only sell ethanol free gasoline.

If you want a source of alcohol free gas go to your local small /private plane air strip and see if you can get some aviation gas.

It doesn't contain alcohol becase it will cause vapor lock problems with altitude changes so I am told.

It has different grades just like automotive gas and the lower octane rating is usually between 95-105 octane. With a little extra oil in the mix you shouldn't have any problems with most saws. My limited experence with this has been good so far.

I have 2 Stils (041 farmboss and 009), 2 Poulans (245 from aprox. 1970, 3400 from the '80s), and 3 Huskys (372xp, 350, 340). The poulans only get used once in awhile to keep them limbered up, they belonged to my father so they are looked at more than anything. The 041 is a early '60s model Dad had also, it has a bow blade on it.

The Stihls and Huskys have all done fine on a diet of this. It costs more for this a gallon but it works when I run out of non-ethanol gas that can still be found in the areas away from the cities. The difference in price is still cheaper than a locked up saw repair.

Your mileage may vary, but this is just my .02 cents worth.

You are messing it up. Ethanol contains 34% less energy per volume unit than gasoline. Thus a 10% ethanol/gasoline mix would contain 3.4% less energy per unit than a 100% gasoline mix.

So, you should be getting 3.4% less gas mileage, not 10% less. If you are getting 10% less, you have a problem with your car.

That said, I agree that ethanol is a complete joke.

Pete