Is This An Amish Thing or Is It An "English" Problem?

I guess I don't understand why you made this agreement in the first place. You knew that this gentleman didn't take proper care of this land when he owned it. Now that you own it he has even less reason to care for it properly.

If you're concerned about making waves you might be well served by going to the people with whom you've had good agreements. It is Biblical to go to an individual and then when the problem hasn't been fixed to go to another. You and the other Amish person could then go to Mr. Amish and discuss the problem.

I really think that you should sell your livestock. The thing is....you're not there and there are bound to be problems with your livestock. They would have had at least the problems they experienced. They'd probably have had more problems if this gentleman hadn't been watching them. Livestock need someone's daily eyes.

Why don't you fence off the timber? You could put solar powered hot wire to keep out unwanted animals.

I would certainly cancel your current agreement. Why don't you live there and commute to your jobs? That seems to me to be the best option.

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-----DD

This is a terrible situation you are in.
Do you honestly think it is because he is Amish??I think he just does not manage the land and animals as you do/would and that is causing serious problems. I am not Amish, but I find that rather insulting to go on about any group like that...I have some neighbors who just seem to be downright nosey..always checking on the construction of our house to make sure it's the right size, color, etc...maybe they are Catholic..should that cause me to wonder if all Catholics are like that? My husbands boss happens to be an Hispanic female-she rubs a lot of people the wrong way--is that because Hispanics are just like that, Female..maybe that's it??? This seems to be a problem you have with this neighbor, I doubt it has anything to do with the fact that he's Amish.
Good luck with your land and animals anyway!

If your sheep do have a worm load and require worming. Putting them back in the pasture with unwormed sheep is not a good idea. Worm them all. Put them in the pasture that has been ungrazed the longest.

Joshie: We had no reason to doubt in our neighbors ability to care for animals. He lead us to believe that he was knowledgeable. We have since learned otherwise. Fool us once shame on you fool us twice shame on us so to speak

Our timber is fenced off but gated. That is going to be changed. It will be gated and locked after the mess of dead cow and discarded building supplies are dealt with.

We DO consider BADland our home. We ARE MO residents. Our medical practice is in another town however and we must deal with it as it is an old well established business in the area.

Littlebit: No, we DO NOT think that the problem is because he IS Amish. We live in the middle of an Amish community. ALL of our neighbors with the exception of one is Amish.

This has been a first for us as far as our dealings with them is concerned. We like, respect and admire the majority of our neighbors. They are decent, hard working, God fearing people who would give you the shirt off their backs. BUT! Their customs are different from ours. Their feel of the land and for animals is different from ours to a point. What I am saying, is this OUR (an English) problem or THEIRS (An Amish) problem due to differences in views concerning land and animals or is it just as mentioned, a PEOPLE problem in general?

I'm of Pennsylvania Dutch decent myself. Half in fact. The other half is Irish and Cherokee Indian. Sorry, I wouldn't leave a dead cow on anybody's land or dump my trash in their creek bed. Me being half PD has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of doing what is right opposed to doing what is wrong.

Bruce: Thought about that. We have a call into the Macon Co. Extension Offices Livestock specialist concerning our concerns. Waiting to hear back from him and ready to follow whatever advice he gives us even if it mean separating our remaining sheep from the flock.

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If you are concerned about parasite load, then you should be rotating the flock. Get some portable fencing and move the sheep every few days. This is also the best way to manage your pastures. The animals need to be kept on an amount of land that they will eat down over one to, say 5 days. How much they need will change as the pasture grows fast, then slower. Keep them off each section for three weeks or more. You can do that yourself.

As for lambing, the ewe should take care of things herself. If a ewe needs help you are counting on an off chance that the shepherd will be there when needed. Ask him about this. If the sheep are grained before 10 a.m. they will probably begin dropping at night.

Maura, thanks for the tips. We plan to begin rotation of the pastures before lambing occurs. The only 'clean' pasture we have is on our tillable land five miles away. Half of that is in thick, knee high grass, clover and brush. We need to get it fenced in and that will happen as soon as the sogginess dries up a bit. Our biggest fear is that the remaining 4 pastures that we are planning to graze the sheep on are badly contaminated and the shepherd let them graze VERY short new spring grass. We are hoping to get them on what we call the 'Elmer' pasture asap after lambing, get them wormed prior to that and hope for the best.

We are hoping to be there for lambing season. At least for part of it.

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Hi Badlander,
It sounds like a upsetting and stressful situation. Maybe you could ask your other Amish neighbor who takes good care of his things if he would be willing to look after your ewes on his place, if he has room for them, or if not at your place. You could then let your partner/neighbor off the hook about his obligation to care for your animals and then allow him to keep his animals on your land on the condition he will not overgraze your land for the duration of the agreement.


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Don't get me wrong...

You OWN the land, as far as the law is concerned... de jure... as far as the County Clerk and the local Tax Assessors are concerned.

Until you live on the land, you don't own it, as far as the locals are concerned... de facto...

I think a very huge percentage of absentee landowners suffer from this little known (at least to absentee owners) rule.

I didn't make the rule. Wished we lived in a perfect world, alas, we don't. If we started removing bad people's extemities, immediately, without appeal, the world would get better in a hurry. It's said that a virgin could ride a horse naked with a bag of gold coins down the Appian Way, without fear for her safety. Rome enforced the Laws mercilessly.

The devil you do know is better than a devil you don't know.

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Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

No problem Texican. There are a lot of part-timers in our area, I just have never heard that train of thought attached to anyone. Most just say, oh, they are there on weekends or every other weekend or once a month, whatever. No indication that they are considered 'less' residents than the full timers.

One of our big concerns it the thought that when the cats away the mice will play so to speak.

We are concerned about our land being overgrazed. We have a lot of concerns that have popped up since this whole thing broke open.

Right now, all our final decisions are going to hinge on what the USDA Livestock Extension Manager tells us when we talk to him sometime today. I'm awaiting a call back from him. If he tells us not to graze the land at all. So be it. If he can tell us how to safely graze the land we will do that also. We are flexible. We also are responsible land and animal owners. We will do nothing that will harm livestock or land. If he tells us not to graze the land for a year and let it recover, we will give up the sheep until next year and then start from scratch. We would like to keep the 6 sheep though and manage them ourselves but as I said, a lot is going to hinge on what the "Man" advises us to do.

I think that is where we are running into problems with our partner. The Amish have a tendency to follow Amish tradition. I think unwittingly and without malice, that is what has happened. Frankly, and believe me, I am NOT trying to 'dis' anyone's beliefs. But I just don't think he knows any better because he has never been taught any differently than the way he is doing things. It is simply the way his father, grandfather, uncles, down through generations have done it. We are hoping the USDA Livestock Agriculturist can help us there, too. If he can't we will have to wait, let the land recover and do it on our own, hopefully the right way.

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UPDATE: We received a letter regarding the dead cow this morning. To make a long story short, it fell through ice on our pond and died. It was drug clear of the pond and left where we found it. It has now been moved.

We will receive assistance in removing the debris from the ravine where it was left. Reasonable offer. We will accept it.

And as of this date the sheep are doing well. We are still waiting for a call from our extension officer who raises sheep himself but is home sick with a cold.

Are we happy with the co-operation. I'm doing a happy dance even as I type.

We have been told that we have to be open, honest and direct with our Amish Neighbors and they will be the same with us. Maybe this is good advice. Hope so I know we have to lay down some ground rules and make sure they are followed.

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Badlander,
There's a great book A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23 written by Phillip Keller who is a Shepherd. He also did the illustrations in it which were quite good. He contrasts the "Good Shepherd" (Jesus) who feeds and cares for the sheep with the "bad shepherd" (Satan) who allows the sheep to be parasite ridden and to drink muddy fouled water. Maybe you could buy your neighbor that book and he might take the hint! They have 37 cheap copies of the new books available.

http://www.amazon.com/Shepherd-Looks.../dp/0310274419


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Good symbolism. Tempting and appropriate under these circumstances. Unfortunately, Amish, I don't think, are allowed to read religious material outside of their 'church' setting and then it has to be read (the bible) by one of their religious leaders. I don't think they even own their own bibles.

What a shame. So much of the bible is open to personal interpretation. I'd hate it if somebody was telling me what I had to believe and how I had to interpret anything I read. Let alone my religious beliefs.

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That's so sad, especially since the truth sets men free!

If you are curious about the Amish and their tradition/beliefs, try reading a book called:

Rumspringa-To Be or Not To Be Amish.

I enjoyed it very much and learned a lot about my neighbors religious/social beliefs in it. I could not be Amish, especially being a woman. It is so limiting and demanding, not so much physically, which it is, but emotionally and spiritually.

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I am sorry but that is simply not a true statement. They can read whatever their little heart desires. They even have their own printing house which prints magazines for different age groups and story books. One of the magazines is the Young Companion. I got these magazines for many years when my children were growing up.

Being Mennonite, I run into Amish and know that none of your statement is true. On off Sundays, OO AMish have church services every 2 weeks and the week they don't have church is an off Sunday, they are supposed to read the Bible with their famalies. They also have family devotions every day and would read the Bible then as well as for personal devotions.
Which is why some leave the church. Their interpretation starts differing from their church and they leave to find another one.

If my data is incorrect, I do apologize. What I read about this was in the book I mentioned earlier. It stated that Amish did not have bibles in their home, but all their 'biblical' information came from what their religious leaders told them during their every other Sunday church service. The same book stated that a lot of Amish youth drift from the church when they go through Rumspringa, attend a church service outside the Amish Faith with an English friend and discover the freedom of reading the bible on their own. Perhaps the data in the book is in error. Dunno. But I do appreciate the view on the subject from a person of the Mennonite persuasion. I know our neighbor has told us that their order use the off Sundays to spend time with family and friends or catch up on farm work.

Yep, I do know about that. Our neighbors sometimes to to another 'community' on those off Sundays for service.

I have never seen a bible in any of our Amish neighbors homes. I have seen the hymnals but that is all. Just figured what I was reading was true. Sorry if I am in error.

Perhaps there is variation among the orders and communities. I don't know. I was just going by what I have read. Frankly, we do not talk religion with our neighbors other than the Golden Rule.

I think that is universal amongst both English and Amish, and should be for everyone no matter what your religious affiliation is or even isn't.

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I'm in my own little world, but it's ok. They know me here!