Is This An Amish Thing or Is It An "English" Problem?

Just a thought, Can you pay for the yearlings to get out of the agreement? Perhaps using the parasite problem as the reason, "you don't want to infect his flock". This way he is not on your land or with your animals so you are happy, he gets money so hopefully that will make him happy and you all can still be "good" neighbors. Or perhaps the "the vet suggested the land rest to recover/get over the issue, so how about we just pay for the yearlings as the land won't be grazeable much of this year?" That way you can run your few on their with out him getting mad.

I don't know what kind of paperwork there is on this agreement so I don't know if any of these are feasible.

HTH

Carrie in SD

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We have a written agreement with Mr. Amish. Frankly though you have hit on a point. The land on his property next to ours is in about as sorry a shape as ours is. It should be rested. The only really good land right now is our 6 acres on BADLand South AKA Elmer. The grass is lush and green there. It can graze sheep for a few months before it is depleted. We are hoping to get the fencing up asap to move the flock to clean ground that hasn't been fouled by both sheep and cow feces nor has had a chance to have a parasite "bloom".

Yeah, what it boils down to is getting our sheep the heck out of Dodge. Won't be able to get that done though until after they lamb as we don't want them 5 miles away when that happens.

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You might want to find out what your County laws say about this. The most exciting "case" I got to sit through during jury duty was over a farmer who left a dead sheep in his pasture. I live in a small County....not much crime!

I, like some others here live very near to a large Amish community and know that they are like any other community of people....There are good and bad. There are the ones who will do anything for you and the ones who will back stab their own family members. They are just like people anywhere.

As far as the dead cow goes, I would tell your neighbor that he can either haul it off your property or pay for the bill when the rendering truck comes to get it. Otherwise, he sounds like a neighbor who needs to be kept at arms length!

Here is a list of renderers in Missouri. They may pick the cow up for free.

http://mda.mo.gov/animals/health/rendering.php

This is why if I'm not able to take care of my own animals I don't have them.Plain and simple!

big rockpile

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If you need to keep the sheep till they lamb, I would really consider getting a good guard dog. they won't tolerate coyotes or humans on their property, and they take such good care of the sheep. The nice thing about dealing with Amish, they won't go to court, so you can break the agreement and that will be the end of it. It's a shame, but, you live and learn, from all experiences. You really don't want to make an enemy of your neighbor, because someday you will be living there, so handle it gently, good luck, I know it's an uncomfortabe situation.
P.J.

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badlander,

It is not an Amish thing it is a people thing. I've had similar experiences with "English" which is why we currently don't have animals on our farm. There are responsible Amish and not so responsible Amish. I have Amish neighbors I think I might trust but at this point (after 2 bad experiences) I'm not interested in dealing with the issues involved for the time being.

If you have made clear how you want the animals managed and he is not taking care of them in the way that you agreed then it is not likely to get better.

Without knowing what the contract specifies it is hard to know if you have a cause for action in terminating it. If he ran his cattle on your land without permission that may be grounds. If not then you need to get by as best you can for the remainder of the agreement.

Personally I would take whatever steps needed to end the agreement and make other arrangements - even if it costs yo in the short run. I would politely explain that the arrangement is not working and that you are concerned for the well being of your herd.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

Horse poo wouldn't bother me, ruts would.

The dead cow wouldn't bother me. That's what we did with ours... pull them to the back of the pasture and let nature take its course.

The overgrazing and coccidia would bother me.

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Thanks Mike,

For the most part our experiences with our Amish neighbors have been good ones. They have warmly welcomed us into the community on many occasions and never hesitated to offer help when needed. I am hoping that this is an isolated experience but then hope blooms eternal.

Tonight my husband and I have been reading over the posts and trying to lay out a plan. As said somewhere in a response. We want to be gentle but firm about it.

Our main concern is for our remaining sheep. I fear that if they haven't been wormed properly, they probably have all sorts of creepy crawlies working away in their guts. I also doubt if they have been inoculated against anything. I'm all for organic but I also want these animals to be protected against disease. A good shepherd watches over his flock. With that thought in mind we are considering calling in a local vet while the animals are corralled and separating ours from the main flock so he can check them over and advise us as to what they need and how often they need it.

Then do it ourselves. He, Mr Amish, can manage the health care of his flock and we ours. We both have medical backgrounds. We can do that.

This would in no way cause a conflict with our grazing agreement and hopefully would help our remaining 6 sheep survive till the end of this one year agreement is up when we will politely decline to continue. Hopefully without causing any ill will between neighbors.

Hopefully our yearlings will produce a few lambs for us to replenish our little flock. We will keep all they produce, whether the males, buy a Llama or two to guard them when we are working and manage them ourselves. It will mean extra work of course, but isn't that what true homesteading is all about? Meeting these challenges and dealing with them on your own?

The land will recover given time and management.

Which still leaves the dead cow in our back pasture.....

I guess that should be beating a dead cow. The way we see it he put it there, unauthorized, therefore he should either 1) drag it away or 2) bury it, cover it with dirt, otherwise make it go away.

If he doesn't, well, I guess we will cross that bridge when we get to it. I think it's too late to have a cookout though.

Unless you have a hankering for really aged beef.

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Well , we havn`t talked in awhile, seems like Mr. amish may have worn out his welcome. And man I have never seen so many people that dislike the amish. Some amish are great people and livestockmen and some arn`t. I know amish that should noy have animals. And I kanow some that would give ya the shirt off their backs. I had one screw me on a horse deal last year, so I know they are not all good. Maybe you could have one of the other amish neighbors say something to him, as they are more than likely in the same church group. And just be plain and simple, lay it on the line this is what you expect and if he can`t or won`t do what you ask you are going to terminate the agrement. Don`t know if this will help, but good luck. Thanks Marc

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Sounds like you have a communication problem.

You ask me to watch your animals, that's exactly what I'm going to do. I see them once a day, I've watched them. If I hear coyotes, I fire off the rifle to either kill the yotes or run them off. If I saw a sick or dying one, I'd call... but I wouldn't be checking poop samples on a regular basis.

Sounds like you were wanting a vet tech to monitor the animals on a regular basis.

It's always been my feeling that a person shouldn't own any kind of animal unless they can see to them on a daily basis. Sell all of them. When you live on site, get what you want, and you can oversee them however you want.

Don't know diddly about Amish... as they're not any hereabouts, to my knowledge. So, I reckon it's a human problem.

Btw... you know you really don't own the land (in the eyes of the locals) till you actually live on the land full-time, right? So, the dead cow, some building materials, and some overgrazing are the complaints??? Be lucky your timber hasn't been cut and sold, your topsoil stripped and sold, and other things that can happen to absentee landowner land. Looked at from that angle, you might view your neighbor in a better light!

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The Amish around here will not hesitate to go to court especially over land issues.

Texican,

The grazing agreement was Mr Amish's idea, not ours. He was looking to expand his grazing possibilities after his sale of the land to us. We thought it over, liked the idea of our pastures being kept clean, liked the idea of sheep doing it and was given the impression that our partner knew what he was doing with his flock....until we got a call about sheep being sick and dying and he didn't know why or what to do.

We DO own the land. All 29 acres of it.And I didn't get into the timber where almost all of the old growth trees have been harvested or felled for lumber and firewood. Many have been harvested and a large number are still down waiting to be chained into firewood. It makes a person sick to go for a walk through their timber and see it looking like a park because all the undergrowth has been chewed down by cows and all of the old growth trees either gone or laying on the ground. So yes, we do know about timber being violated. It will take years for it to recover and the young growth trees to mature to the size of the ones that were taken.

Then go home for the weekend and find more cows in the same timber. Not to mention the dead one left behind.

Overgrazing is an issue when the land is continued to be overgrazed without any consideration being given to the health of the animals grazing it. Most sheep parasites live in the first two to three inches of grass. Ask any sheep farmer and they will tell you that the best grass for sheep is long and lush.

It's a matter of trust when all is said and done. Not a matter of asking anyone to watch animals. We didn't. It was volunteered. We agreed. We offered two pastures on site, one 5 miles away to be grazed. Three pastures on site were being used, one unauthorized for cattle, which were never part of the deal.

Fresh trash was found dumped in our creek bed from our neighbors building site.

We gave permission to another Amish family to go into our back pasture and clean out some of the fallen timber. They needed firewood, so did we. In exchange for every two wagon loads of firewood, they gave us one equaling a cord and a half of wood. We got a total of 3 cords more or less. Yes, that is how much wood was downed in the timber.

It's a simple matter of giving an inch and a mile being taken.

blufford:

Our Mr. Amish has said that their group doesn't sue anyone. I would expect that they would want some sort of restitution from anyone they had a claim against though.

The trick is that we do not want to cause any huge waves with this. Our Mr. Amish is the son of the orderung (I hope I spelled that right) founder in our area and it is a large family. We are business owners who hope to branch out in the area in the future, so yes, we want their good will and not to mention potential business. This puts us in the position of yes, being diplomatic yet firm with our desires concerning this situation.

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This may sound harsh but I totally agree. If you can't be there to watch your own animals and property maybe you should get rid of them. We have had similar problems with renters of a home we inherited in town. We live about 15 miles from there. After trying to keep the place rented out to pay the taxes on it we found that the renters had trashed the place. We finally "gave" it away to HUD. I know that there are a lot of good renters out there but some people have the attitude that if it isn't theirs then they don't care how things are treated.
I would especially make it a point to be there for lambing in case there are problems. It also doesn't sound like Mr. Amish gives a rip whether or not your land is trashed and overgrazed. I would end the agreement.

We do not rent the property (the house) to anyone. We live in it almost half the time, the other half is spent in our 'work' house when we are in our office. We have long distance rental property and know of the pain in the backside it can be. It is why we are trying to sell it even as I write.

It's a matter of being able to trust your neighbors. Nobody can be home 24/7 to watch over what they own. A good neighbor can be invaluable. I've had that relationship with my neighbors in the past and present. You can trust them to keep an eye on things for you should you be away or on vacation and you do the same for them. If they see a moving van backed up in your drive way loading things up, you know they will call the authorities as would you for them. You also know that they are not going to go on your property, leave deep ruts in your driveway, leave horse droppings in your yard and barn or leave dead cows in your woods....

We have decided to end the agreement after this year. In the mean time we are taking over the health care of our sheep and let the grazing agreement stand. They will lamb in May and hopefully we will be there for the event. We are keeping our 6 remaining sheep,and probably their lambs. The males will be castrated. At the most we will be left with 10 sheep when all is said and done...if we don't loose anymore before we can get them stabilized health wise.

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I think they are taking advantage of you. Treat 'em the same as you would any other bad tenant/neighbor and don't put up with it.

Good for you taking over the care of the sheep. It's a steep learning curve but you will know that they have been treated correctly. I wouldn't trust anyone else to look after my animals , Everyone has their own style of livestock management.