lean-to on barn
 

We need to add a lean to on the barn this year. I notice that some barns like ours have a shingled roof - others have the metal roofs. Is there a reason to have each one, or is it up to the builder/owner what kind to put on. We do get piles of snow - can a metal roof withstand that with proper support? Would water condence on the underside of a metal roof and drip down on animals?

Depending on the slope, and as long as there is proper support, a metal roof can handle a lot of snow. It may also depend on which direction - a south or west side leanto on the sunny side will shed snow easier than an east or north leanto - less sun, less warmth.

Yes, a metal roof will condense and drip if there are animals under the roof, they are constantly giving off moisture in their breath, from their hide & manure. You may be able to minimize some of that condensation with good ventilation, but not all of it.

Callie; Yep condensation is going to be a problem with a metal roof, and you will have morning rain in the lean. We have put metal over our barn roof, but it had a shingle roof already, so they don`t have the moisture problems. Now if you want you can put plywood on your roof , then tar paper, then the metal, and this will stop the problem also. This way you will never have to reroof again. Good shingles will only last Twenty to thirty years, so depending how old you are that might not be long enough. If you need more enfo write back. Thanks Marc.

I wouldn't install a metal roof on any building unless it was sheathed under the metal with OSB or plywood. Just put a shed roof off the side of my existing building, metal over OSB with 16" spacing on rafters.

We had a pole barn put up about 5 years ago by a contractor. It has a metal roof. Then a little over a year ago we decided to add on to the barn for the goats. So we added what we call an addition to one side, also metal roof. Our buck & wether have a penned area attached to that side of the addition & therefore have a door where they can go in & out of the barn anytime they want to but only have about a third of the addition on the inside. There is condensation but not very much. they never get wet or there hay, bed's, etc. but I have seen water drip from the ceiling but not much & it hasn't been a problem for me or the goats.

Were farther north than you callieslamb & normally we get alot more snow than you do(other than this year) & it slides right off & weight hasn't been an issue either.

Call your Township Office to get the building codes. They have jurisdiction. A lot of them contract with Associated Government Services in Klamazoo to provide the codes, permit process, and inspections. Welcome to Michigan. Keep in good graces with your Township Officials. They da boss...........

Snow will slide off a metal roof but not so with shingles. They sell styrofoam sheets that you can install under a metal roof to control the condensation.
I've installed metal roofs with ring shank nails and screws (both have a special rubber washer) and I'd recommend screws. You order the steel in exactly the length you need, within an 1/8 inch. I've put up sheets that were 36 feet long.
You'll need properly designed roof trusses. How big is this lean-to? What is the pitch/slope?

Thanks everyone!
The size will be determined by the cost of the roof- I hope we can do 40 x 12 - the entire side of the barn. But if not, 30x 12 anyway. I want to allow my animals to get out of the weather while minimize the cleaning of stalls all winter! I think the south side would be best. wouldn't the north side mean I would have to close in the north side too to keep snow and wind out? The east side is also available, but the snow back there piled up over 4 feet tall.

thanks Geo! Got it - the township is my friend. I will call them on Monday and see if their are codes - maybe that is why all the barns here have shingles?

I think the advice is sound to put OSB board down, then tar, then the metal roof. I wonder if I can afford all that. bet the shingles are cheaper though (another reason the barns here have them?) The 2 parts of roofing I don't like - paying for the shingles and getting them up on top. The rest isn't so bad. Okay- the very edges aren't too comfy.

How many animals would it take to make the condensation a big concern. I will have 1 cow, a calf (sizing varying), 4 sheep and 2 llamas. Not all will have the use of the lean-to all the time. Is lean-to the right word?

Is there a way to shape the edge of the roof so that it doesn't create a pile of snow right at the opening? I can see the snow swirling over the barn and down and right into the lean to.

Again- thanks!

We just built a 30x12, south facing lean to with a metal roof. Condensation doesn't seem to be a big problem, but I think the slope of the roof allows any condensation to run to the lowest part of the roof then drip off there. We did have a concrete pad poured and it extends just past the roof drip line. We love it and the 3 horses and 2 mules won't get off it when it's really muddy in the paddock. It's height is about 10-11 feet next to the barn, sloping to around 8 or so feet.

We always had snow curling into our lean to, until we enclosed it. It is on the east wall.

concrete sounds good. Is that bad for the animals? Anyone slipping around on it? They slip around inside on it from time to time, so I am concerned. Did you brush it to make it less slick?

If you're concerned about concrete for animals and slipping finish it with a rake or board with nails after brooming.
A consideration on a shed roof is overhang and wind. If the wind comes from that side it can tear the whole roof off when it gets under it.

And if you pitch is too flat, you will get water backing up under your shingles, too ;)

Personally, I would rather have metal than shingles. I guess having roofs like this on my dad's dairy farm (in northern Michigan) for the 30+ years I was around/worked there has a "little" to do with my opinion :D

We finished the concrete with a very rough surface, lots of swirls, that kind of thing. The animals don't slip and it's not so rough that it's not hard to shovel the manure off. I feed the horses inside morning and night then they are locked out of the barn during the day. The mules hate being in the barn so are fed in the run-in. No one gets to go in the barn in the summer, so clean up consists of what the horses leave overnight in the winter and only the concrete pad to clean in the summer. I only think concrete would be bad for the animals if they had no other place to lay down. If that were the case here I would put stall mats down over the concrete. My farrier told me that one of her other clients has a concrete floor in their shed and their horses' hooves don't need to be trimmed as often as before.
The only drawback to the concrete pad (so far) was the expense.

we built a lean to onto our woodshed/furnace buildling last year..we have a shingle roof..when there is frost that comes through the nails, it will melt and drop through..so even a shingle roof you might get some ..less of a problem where there is some body heat or heat of some kind.

you'll only have a few drops off those nails..but there will be occasional drops
we have heavy snow here..but no problem with our shingled roofs

The height of the original barn wall and where you can tie into it will determine the slope(pitch) of the shed roof and the height of the outside shed wall. That, in turn will determine whether you can use shingles, or will have to go with continuous, seamless roofing materials--and probably metal roofing panels would be considered as such. Take into consideration, though, the length multiples of metal panels--8, 12, 14, etc. You'll need extra length for the pitch and overhang--or you'll be into cutting them to size. Same thing about overhang and putting a curtain wall down from the roof/ceiling to ward off blowing snow and rain--the original barn wall height will be the determining factor. I would not want to orient an open shed to the North. Probably wouldn't thaw out until late April, and your animals would be cheated out of the once a month sunny day(here in Michigan).

Whether you go with pole construction or concrete pad and then pole walls, you'll need to consider footers, frost lines, concrete thickness, possibly slope, reinforcing, all code items.

The barn is oriented with the long sides north and south (the roof top is pointed east and west) and the door on the east side. DH's shop is on the west end and I can't use those doors for animals. I don't want to put a lean-to on the north side since I would have to make it go around the NE corner to have the opening facing south or enclose it entirely. I don't want to enclose it- I have stalls inside the barn for that. I just want a place that most of the animals can go when it just mostly cold - not dangerously freezing. I hope it would also give a bit of shade in the summer. Being on the south side, I am not sure. We might also store some of the hay there since it would be easier to access - in both stacking and feeding.

The barn has shingles now. It is probably about 10 feet high at the eaves. I was hoping to start just under that height rather than tying into the original roof. I am not the builder and don't know what is easiest/best though. metal roofing the same as metal siding? We bought siding to match the barn when we built the hay feeder. I can order siding the length I want rather than a set size. I remember because I ordered it 7 ft for the feeder and we only needed 6ft. We had to cut them all by hand.

I am sure we will go with pole construction. The concrete probably won't happen since it would greatly add to the cost and it isn't necessary.
Thanks for all the help here.

I'd much much much prefer tin over asphault shingles these days. The tar is poor quality any more, they don't make good ones. Tim will last 40 years, more with a couple coats of paint when it gets old.

There is thinner cheap tin, and a bit thicker tin which is better for roofing.

It sounds like you are below the bottom of the low budgets, so - I'm sure you got the thinnner tin for siding, and it will work for roofing too. The thicker stuff would be better - but no point in mentioning it. :)

Sounds like you are doing a leanto roof only, no walls? So condensation won't be much of a deal at all. It will happen on any surface, moreso on tin, but without walls, not a big deal.

You'll have to tie the roof down well, as the wind will get under it without walls.

You say 10 feet high, and you want to go out 12 feet. What angle will you make the roof? (How high on the low side?) If you draw it out on paper, you will find you get into trouble pretty quick - the roof gets real shallow, or the lower wall gets real low....

Shallow roof isn't so bad in the south, but you are in snow country. You are going to have a wad of snow coming off the barn roof, dropping onto your lean to, which is a shallower pitch, and sit there. Piling up. Heavy.

All of this can be done, but you need to plan for it. You talk about coming off the east or south side - which one will dump snow on your leanto from the regular roof?

A tin roof is cheaper than asphault if you build each simpley. However, if you want the osb under the roof, then the costs will be similar I bet. Screws are much better to hold it down - you'll use nails, because they are cheaper. ;)

I don't think tar shingles will work because you will have the roof sloped too shallow. If it were me, there are 100 reasons to favor metal roof, and only one or 2 for a tar roof.....

--->Paul

The condensation problems from the respiration of animals is much worse in a closed area. An open sided or ended shed is going to have much more ventilation and much less (if any) of a problem. A thin layer of insulation over the rafters, can help a bunch with the condesation, and has the added advantage of the tin not radiating so much heat down in the summer which may pose a problem with the animals using it for shade.

I would go with some kind of insulation or sheathing in any case, because open sheds often tend to become closed-in sheds down the road when some other use is needed for them. Whether a sheathing or insulation board or something like the foil/bubble wrappings would be the "best" or the most economical, I can not say. That would take some further investigation on you part.

Thanks for the info. I do want to enclose the two short ends - just to keep the wind from whistling through there. We have looked tentatively at the canvass-like enclosures so it would be closed more in winter than in summer.

Do we need to use sheathing AND an insulation board? I am not sure just the insulation with roofing would be sturdy enough.

Economics come into play for us when we are trying to balance the cost against the gain. At some point a tractor would be just as useful to help clean stalls as the lean-to would be. I assume in comparing costs - it isn't even close though. We just gather our finds and have a little family summit meeting - to help decide which kind of farm addition would pay off for us the most and when. I am simply gathering info.

Callie,

Have you considered building a new barn? It seems like if you build a lean-to that you have already built half of a new barn.

This might give you a chance to design the barn for exactly what you want....and if you built it yourself, and did it yourself, you would have it done and paid for in no time.

FWIW, I can promise you that DH would like to have a new shop!!!!

Clove

Clovis I like your ideas. You are a thinking man! But I think 1/2 of a barn is cheaper than a whole one. I cannot brag on my math skills, but I think I am right. I am sure DH would like your idea too. But...here's the parts you don't know. We just moved here last year. DH has a new shop we worked really hard on - it is heated/ AC- the works. DH isn't the most highly energetic of men - a do over, even for a NEW shop.....not so sure... But I like the way you think! The barn is a really nice one. I couldn't ask for better - feel totally blessed to have this one. But you did make me think. Perhaps an addition to the garage on the house would be the answer? Move either the shop (OR that dang baby of a trailer that takes up 1/3 of the front of the barn).

It isn't just more space INSIDE the barn that I want - I can get that with some cheap rearranging. It is a lot of work to shovel the stalls out. I have to fork it in a little cart, push the cart and then fork it out of the cart. That is a lot of inefficiency. I have to cart it quite a ways to dump it. In 3 feet of snow, it becomes impossible to cart anything. So I use a tarp - does the picture of a mule come to your mind, as it does mine, when I am pulling the tarp? When there isn't snow, it isn't so hard. But - we haven't seen dirt since Christmas.

My goals are to make the stall clean out easier and storage for the hay. I could devote a stall to the hay, except they are full of animals that really don't need to be inside every night. I am going to start looking at building a free-standing shelter for the sheep and llamas. (Only their stalls aren't the hard ones to clean out...it's the dang yearling calves that are the mess!)

I measured the south side of the barn last night- it is only tall enough for a six foot deep lean-to. RATS! DH has offered to build one of those canvas-type buildings. I don't know what they are called. I don't like them....but ..we will discuss it at the next summit.

I also want to get the chickens out of the barn. I thought it was a good idea. They make everything so dusty - including the hay.

Pole buildings are cheap _if_ you build them right - as a pole building. Instead of nailing 2x4 or 2x6 together into a wall on 2 foot centers. You save time doing a pole setup.

A pole roof is metal over 2x4 purlins on eade, and nail the metal to those. It can be cheaper to use the more expensive metal, stronger metal, and use less 2x4s. Depends on the design. But sometimes using the cheapest materials means you need to use more of other things, and you end up spending more. Anyhow, this roof will work well for you with the open design, so there really is no need for osb or insulation if you want 'cheapest'. That is what a pole barn is.

Now, you want to add a bit of expense. Someday the leanto might be closed in, or the couple drips of condensation bother you. So you roll out one of those thing insulation rolls over the purlins before you nail the metal roof on. This will take care of the condensation 99%, and be fairly inexpensive. Sometimes birds like to peck through this insulation stuff tho. Over the years.

So, if you want better, then you put down OSB. Instead of the insulation. Cost more, but no bird issues.

But OSB won't like the moisture, will fall aprt over the years.

So, you use plywood instead of the osb. Costs more, but will last longer.

And so it goes.

If you want a really cheap open side leanto on your barn to slightly shelter your critters from weather, then build it really cheap. No roof boards or insulation, use nails, and keep the frills away. With open sided, the condensation will be nothing to ever worry about.

Use the advantage of pole construction, and build it cheaply. If you buy the stronger, more costly tin, you can use less 2x4 and less nails to hold it down and it will be just as strong, or stronger. Perhaps that ends up cheaper even than using the thinner metal and lots more wood and nails....

It seems like you are stuck on cheap. That's cool! :) I used to be cheap too.

I've learned, and shifted my goals a bit of late. I'm no longer cheap.

I'm now inexpensive. I look at the whole deal, and try to get a good end result for less money. That doesn't mean every item is the most cheapest thing you can buy. It means you buy really good values, and plan out what costs the least to give you a good product at the end.

Turns out some of these inexpensive projects of mine cost less than the cheap projects I used to do, and they seem to last a little longer.

Just having conversation, I see you are looking at doing this differently now, as the roof line must not have been high enough.

--->Paul

rambler, You are the one that has decided I am cheap. I certainly don't believe in spending more than I have to, but we usually manage to build things that last. I appreciate the info. The height of my barn isn't enough to accomodate a lean-to. I am looking at portable calf/animal huts right now as a means to the same ends.

I appologise if I said something wrong.

It seemed to me you were mentioning that saving money a whole lot, and I was just going along with you - in my mind anyhow.

I was trying to smile with you in a humorous way, but sorry if I misunderstood or said something that doesn't agree with you.

--->Paul

I really can't figure the whole Dripping thing... It's about as damp as it can be here and the roof never drips? Here is how we build them. You put your rafters. Then put 1X boards for support leaving every other board off. You will have plenty of air flow and support.

No offense...I do like to save money - always. Building cheaply doesn't alway save money! No need to spend it where you don't need to. Then you have more for other things!

The roof drips - but snow doesn't fall off of it. I thought the comment was snow will fall off the one roof and onto the lean to roof. We have a lot of dripping. We put up gutters to direct the dripping away from where the animals frequent. Is that what you were asking?

I still can't figure why it would drip inside. You have the roof vented right? That is the way they are installed here anyway. So the underside is always dry.

Do you all seal the roofing at the ends? Or do you leave them open for ventilation. If it's dripping inside, you need more ventilation. A livestock building should be well vented, dry, and draft free. If it's not than you need to change things.



Here the snow slides off if the pitch is greater than about 6 to 1. If it's flatter than that it lays.

Be thankful that you apparently live in an area that doesn't have this problem. Around us, even in machine sheds, if you don't have insulation on the ceiling, you get dripping. Yes, they have eave and ridge ventilation, but its still not enough. The larger the building, the more they seem to drip. Buildings with concrete floors drip less than dirt floors. With animals its worse, but if you have animals you should have even more/powered ventilation.

The dripping doesn't always happen. It takes certain conditions, but if you meet those conditions, its like a tropical jungle inside: constant dripping Fall is a bad time, since it's cooling down outside, the interior is warmer, and you get down to the dew point at night. Once the outside hits the dew point temperature, condensation starts on the inside of the ceiling.

I looked at your photos, but I couldn't find your post frame building. I saw the little goat shed, but a building that small typically doesn't have the condensation problem.

Michael

The old machine shed built in '64 doesn't drip.

So put one up this fall, and I see it does drip a bit. Frost is on the inside of the walls as well.

I'm hoping this is a funtion of the fresh dirt, wet fall, and that as the ground dries out under the building it will become a small problem.

The old shed has no venting at all. Never saw it drip anything at all inside it.

They are less than 100 feet from each other.

Interesting to watch this develop.

--->Paul

If a six foot lean to is out of the question, then you might want to consider building something separate from the present barn, but built and layed out for future expansion in mind....... To me, that might be a half-barn, clear enough to the east, west, and south to grow...... A half barn--with maybe an elevated tee loft or drive thru, like a horse stable (or a shed, pole style) would be the starter, and then all your wall materials would be reuseable as you expand..... The north wall could become the east- west sides of the new half, then if you grew the next direction, either east or west, those walls could move with it. If you build it to Township code, then no new prints are needed, you'll have all the same measurements, etc. , you'll know what materials to save for, buy, and store. Just include your final, expanded plans to accomodate codes for property line clearances and setbacks. And, a separate tromp shed(even an expanded one) would not add square footage costs to the insurance value of a heated, finished shop, housing tools, equipment, tractor, etc. Just remember to use screws for easier takedown when the time comes.

Sound like a plan? (There aren't too many people who don't go through "expansionitis" over the course of time....)

I'm sorry. My the roof doesn't drip inside right now. The snow melts - runs down to the gutter around and off to the lower north side of the barn. If you are referring to my original question - someone told me that you have to be careful with uninsulated metal roofs on barns due to condensation - warm, wet animal breath on the inside - cold on the outside = drips. I just wanted to know if anyone really had a problem with it. Seems to me that unless there were a TON of animals in a small, air tight space, condensation wouldn't be that big of a problem. However, I am not the brightest bulb on the tree when it comes to air/condensation/building. I have a 20x40 space for what will soon be 8 animals. 4 will be a small breed of sheep. There is a small loft over one side (2 stalls) but the other side is free to the roof. It was the roof in the lean to I was concerned about dripping. But - the barn is not tall enough for a good lean-to.

Oh well...back to the think tank.

Yes, it is a great plan, George! Who would of thought I would have wanted to expand after only 11 months though! LOL!!! TO expand much further, I am going to need that extra 5 acres..... A six foot lean-to would fit, but Dh would have to duck to get under it.....I wonder just how tall the cow will get as well as the llamas..... It isn't barn space I need though - it is animal space that is more easy to keep clean. I had a brain flash today.....It might be cheaper to just HIRE someone to clean the stalls!

My buildings are small, that is true. But the neighbor has a 250 head free stall. His fans run automatically due to temperature or humidity. He has 4 fans that are about 3ft in diameter. So yeah mechanical venting is needed.

But what's that got to do with it? Damp = wet. Wet = cold. Cold = at best production losses at worse disease. So once again if your barn is wet or damp, add more ventilation. Moisture/damp inside of a barn is caused by poor design. Would you accept dripping over your bed? Why would you accept it for your livestock?

I guess I'm confused. Why would anyone let condensation drip onto their animals? The whole point of the conversation was to say that it can be a problem, and insulation is one way to eliminate it. If you have animals in the building, ventilation is very important. Condensation still happens without animals.

Here's an example of why just ventilation isn't always going to solve the problem: I went to Menards this morning, and picked up some insulation from their new building. Post frame, uninsulated, probably around 200'x100' with 24' side walls. The eves are all open about 3'. Couldn't see the ridge, but it was probably vented. They still had condensation. I don't know if they shut and lock the doors at night, but they are open during the day. BIG doors, basically most of the endwalls. I don't know if they are going to have problems with dripping, but I thought I saw the purlin pattern faintly on the floor.

So, you can't say "just add proper ventilation, and you will not have dripping problems anywhere in the US." Sometimes its still not enough. Thats where the vapor barrier/insulation comes in.

Does your friends freestall barn have bare steel, or is it covered with something?

Michael