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Well Pump question
We are having issues with our well pump, maybe you can shed some light on the problem.
When you turn the faucet on, the water is at high pressure - higher than normal - but after a few minutes it slows way down, and if you try to turn on more than one usage, there is not enough water for anything. We have replaced the well pump - and now we have no water. Any clues where to look? DH says there are no cracks in the piping. Well is 360 feet deep. There is water in the well. They tried bleeding the bladder? |
Is the new pump running?? If it's running, and there is no water you need a well man on the job.
Is it a submersable pump? If the new pump doesn't turn on it might be the pressure switch not working. |
It sounds like the pressure tank. Does the pump kick on shortly after you turn on the water? It usually is a blue tank that holds water and creates water pressure with an air bladder. Here is a link explaining more and gives some troubleshooting. http://www.doh.wa.gov/ehp/dw/Publica...42_4-18-06.pdf
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I agree with the pressure tank. Unless your Well is going dry. Any sediment coming out of the faucet (check your faucet screen)
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Have you replaced the filter since replacing the pump?
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What others said - I'd look @ the filter replacement, possibly your bladder tank being/going bad, or the pressure switch going bad.
Does your pressure switch close (thereby causing your pump to kick in) when it hits the low end of your pressure switch's settings? |
Saffron
You have not provided enough info to generate a reply with any confidence that it will fix your problem. Is this a jet pump or a submersible pump? Since you stated well pump, is it a dug, drilled or sandpoint? Do you have a bladder tank or a conventional storage tank? How many gallons per minute is the well capable of delivering? Does the system have a working pressure gauge on it? Are you in a location with freezing temperatures at this time? Is there a shutoff valve between the well pump and the home? Has the system been working properly up to this failure? Any available history of this system? |
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The new pump is running, apparently the pump we put in the other day was bad - Still have the same problem though. It is a submersible pump A new pressure switch has been installed and is working Quote:
The tank is not leaking. It is holding at pressure and kicks on at a certain point, but the pressure does not rise unless we turn the water off. Quote:
No sediment in the lines at all. Well is good, pumping water. |
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Yes, the pressure switch is kicking in and we have replaced it just to be sure. Quote:
We have checked all lines for leaks/cracks/breaks The well is downhill from the pumphouse and the opinion lately seems to be that this pump (Flotec 1 hp) is not as strong as the Jacuzzi (1hp) and therefore is not strong enough once the water is turned on. I watched the pressure gauge today - Pressure is nice and high. Turn valve on and pressure starts dropping - switch kicks in but pressure holds for 5-10 secs and then pressure drops to zero. Shut valve off and SLOWLY, SLOWLY the pressure builds back up again and holds until you repeat the process. |
You need someone that can read a pump chart to compare the Flotec to the Jacuzzi.
Either there is a leak in the down pipe in the casing or the Flotec is not properly selected for the task. I think since you can make pressure with the valve closed that the pump is OK. More water is exiting the lines than the pump can pump IMO. Is there a checkvalve between the pump and the pressure switch? If so, there is a hole in the down pipe. A suggestion, just barely open the valve that feeds water to the home. Let the pump run for a duration to see if you can eventually fill the whole system. Once the system fills, if there is a leak from the valve to the home, the pressure switch will start cycling with no water being consumed in the home. You could have two problems. A burst pipe at the home and a leak in the down pipe in the well. I wish I could be more exact but it is difficult to "see" what is happening from here. You did an excellent job of describing the problem however. |
Have you ever had the screen cleaned?
I neglected to do that and my pump ran out of water. That caused the internal parts of the pump to slam down and wreck the thrust bearing when the water filled up the pipe again. The well company came out and used compressed air to clean the screen. It looked like an orange paint geyser shooting up into the air from all the rust that had clogged the screen. |
Now we have no water again.
ugh Power is off to the pumphouse and everything. I will check and get the info regarding the recent suggestion. Thank you for the input so far |
This is what I would do. Turn off the electric. Make sure the line and load wires are connected to the pressures switch correctly. If wired correctly, remove wires from pressure switch and pigtail together (line to load and line to load). Have someone go to the well and pull the pipe up and away from the pitless adapter. The other person turns on the electric. If there is a steady flow from the now detached pipe from the pitless adapter you can rule out pump, dry well, sediment blocking the pump. Next, turn off the electric. Put the pipe back into the pitless adapter slot. Go to the shut off valve that you stated was between the well and the house. Break the line on the house side of the shut off valve. Have someone turn on the electric. If water is flowing then the shut off valve is good. Shut off the electric and reconnect pipe to shut off valve. Next open an outside faucet. Use CAUTION at this point because you do not have the pressure switch in the system at this time. Have someone turn on the electric. If you have flow you know water is getting through the system. The outside faucet will not have any screens to restrict the flow if there is sediment in the lines. Turn off the electric. At this point you can unscrew the pressure switch from the T at the storage tank. Check that no sediment is in the riser tube or the inlet of the pressure switch. Reinstall the pressure switch in the T. Reconnect the electric wires making sure you have both line and load wires connected properly. Turn on the electric and watch the pressure gauge on the storage tank. If you still have problems you can try to recharge the storage tank or just replace it. Storage tanks do need to be replaced over time.
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maybe object in line and only at certain point allowing water to flow than obstructing at other times lodging and dislodging due to pressure fluctuations
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i think the winning answer is agmantoos the flotec pump you have is only able to do 300 feet of depth at 4.2 gallens a minute either replace the pump or can you fill storage tank lower than pump house than use a booster pump to pump the water out of the tank
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You earlier stated the well is downhill from the pump house. Is the pump house downhill from the home?
As William G did some research so did I. The 1 HP Jacuzzi I researched is capable of delivering water from a depth that is greater by 60 feet than the Flotec can deliver. If you are going to stay with the Flotec, either raise the position of the 10GPM Flotec or get a 7 GPM Flotec. Goulds pumps are also good pumps if you cannot find a Jacuzzi. A Goulds 7G10 with 20 stages would be a good match IMO for your system.. |
I see you have a 380' well with the pump at 355'.....what's the water level?
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We did replace the storage tank a while back, hopefully it is not needing it again. The pump house is level with the home. Question - why would I get a 7gpm instead of a 10 gpm? A friend has a new pump that is top of the line (he said) I can't remember the name - they are going to install it tomorrow afternoon and see what happens. Apparently it needs a control box and another wire run down? My neighbor tried today to raise the pressure and could not get it past 20lbs. He got it that high and shut the power off, came back later and the pressure was still at 20lbs. So wouldn't that indicate no leakage in the lines from the pump to the bladder tank? I do know the pressure switch does not cycle unless the water is physically on at the valve or the house faucets. I did find out that when we had the freeze, apparently a chunk of ice was stuck in the pipes and kept moving back and forth causing issues. They poured very warm water down the pipes to melt the ice so the water would start up again. While it was frozen - it was not discovered immediately and the thought is that the pump started burning out from pressure buildup as it was spurting to relieve pressure at the well head (relief valve?) |
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The number of stages in the 7 gallon per minute unit will allow the pump to deliver water from a deeper depth. You need to do some studying on pump charts and you will better understand the delivery of water from various depths and the volume of water delivered at specific pressures.
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I have WATER!
Knock on wood The new pump is installed, it is an F&W 1 hp Got it all done and turned on the switches and it didn't work - turned out it had airlocked, they bled it at the wellhead and now it works! Sediment in the line so I am going around cleaning all the household filters. But there is WATER. |
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Saffron
What is the model # of the Flint and Walling? |
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OK - We are truly stumped. No water this morning. Had plenty of water last night, I was able to wash a med load of clothes. No showers (though we should have). This morning no water - go to pump house - no pressure. My neighbor comes over, take well cap off, we check - the control box is working, etc. Switch the power off. He opens the valve at the top of the line there and it lets out pressure. I flip the power back on, it starts to work - he said he could hear and feel the water start through the lines. Pressure starts to build at the pump house. Then it stops again. Pressure wouldn't get higher than 10. Neighbor is wondering if the pressure valve at the head is not working right? |
sorry - not a Q should be a 1
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Saffron,
You have taken the marginal Flotec out and installed a F & W that is comparable. Both of these pumps are the entry level pump in the 1 HP submersible pump group that compete on price and give up performance. I too am also interested in good value but good value in low in pumps seldom happens. I do not think you have followed my advice in doing some research on the pump performance charts and I see you remain with the 10 GPM 1 HP specs. I obviously am not there to have a full understanding of what is going on but I do have the experience to tell you to consider going to the 7 GPM 1 HP. You seemingly do not want to do this for some reason but it will match your well and should fix your problem and you will have plenty of water to run a household. The pump performance chart is posted to assist in such issues as you have. At this point you could raise the pump about 50 ft and get by or you can stay with a 10GPM pump and increase the HP to 1 1/2 HP. I did some research on Jaccuzzi pumps, your old one, and in the 1 HP range I could only locate a pump chart for a 7 GPM one. If Jacuzzzi made a 10 GPM 1 HP pump I was unable to locate a chart on the internet without a model number. |
In post #19 you state that you have water when you performed those tests. Did you let the pump run when you had the line open to see how long the pump would pump water? Did you have a container or containers to catch the output in to measure the volume?
IMO, you have more pump than the well will supply. Well recharge rates do change over time. The 7 gpm pump that has been suggested will not draw the well down as fast as the 10 gpm pump. Been there, done that. |
If you go to this page http://www.wwpp.com/products/redjack...acketpumps.htm
and look about halfway down, highlighted in green, you'll see their selection, and there are 2 links for each one called "performance curves" and "selection chart" That will show you what performance you can expect from each of the pumps on that page, as to height of the head, pressure at the head, etc. Now, if you look at their "20G8" "selection chart", you can see that all 1 horsepower pumps are not created equal. On that chart you have 5 separate 1hp pumps with different capabilities. You need to look at the depth and the discharge pressure. You can see that their pump model 6G24 will deliver 5.6 gpm at 20 pounds pressure from 300 ft deep. 8G21 will deliver 7.1 gpm under the same set of circumstances. 12G14, 7.9 gpm. Their pump 20G8 and 25G7 wont pump it that high. yet all are 1 hp pumps. The difference is in "stages" which is something you don't need to worry about, but you can look at this chart, and almost any other company will have something similar, you can pick out the pump that will do exactly what you want. |
OK - I think we have figured the problem
It appears to be happening according to the split straw theory (My name for it) Changed out the pressure switch and pressure gauge. Let the air pressure of at the head, we get pressure and water. Let it sit - everything is fine. Turned water on - everything is fine, switch kicks in, pump starts, pressure builds. Ran the water for a bit and the pressure started dropping again - not bottoming like before - pump kicks in pressure builds to 28, stays there. Turn water off pressure builds to 30 and stops. If we turn the water on at that point pressure will bottom. Go down to the head and bleed the air off, turn power to pump on and pressure builds back up. Apparently, we have a leak/crack in the pipe, probably within the first 100 feet of the water level, and when the water hits that leak/crack it sucks air and cause it to airlock. Sound plausible? LOL We are pulling the pipe today and testing it and are going to replace the pipe where needed. We had ruled this out because it would build pressure and hold the pressure and never lose pressure, so there didn't appear to be a leak. Any other ideas before we pull the pipe? |
when you get the pump out of the well, get a drum full of water, put the pump in it(water line still attached), turn the power to the pump on. if you have a split in the pipe, it'll spray out. You'll know where and how big it is.
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Agmantoo, It is not that I don't follow your advice - it is that I am female and I am having to deal with a dh who prefers to work with the other men in figuring things out, especially since I am not well versed in this territory - although I am learning. I pass the information on and am told if it has been tried or not and whether they are going to try it. The most recent pump was given to us to try, and I was told it was a better pump than the Flotecs - so I don't know. That is why I come here, hoping to find experience that I can rely on for information. Which you and others have been very kind in providing. I greatly appreciate all help and when I am present, I "nag" until they try what I have received here. Unfortunately, my dh's father is dying in the hospital and he has gone to his bedside, so over the last 2-3 days I have not been able to "nag" and give them the new information to try. So I have left in in their hands until tomorrow. I have checked to find a 7 gpm pump and there is not one available near me, but I will be down where one is and if they pull the line and there is not any cracks/leaks, I will be picking it up for them to change out before they put the pump back down. I will get you a model number on the Jacuzzi when I get home this evening. |
A reduced amount of delivery or no delivery is a symptom of a leaking or burst down pipe. The submersible pump is in the water and any crack in the pipe is above. I asked early on about a check valve between the tank and the pump to eliminate a crack/leak. Without a check valve in that location the pipe if cracked would leak water back into the well and the pump would cycle. When the pump cycles that indicates water is going somewhere and that pressure is dropping. A pump that holds pressure but will not climb in pressure either has the inlet to the pump clogged, the pump itself worn excessively or the pump is incapable of overcoming the head. The two pumps, the F & W and the Flotec are sitting at the ragged edge of their maximum performance capability
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Saffron
Did you get water to pumping? If so, what was the problem? |
It may need a check valve to prevent the water from draining back into the well and losing its prime. I suggest it be installed just above the pump.
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There is a check valve located just above the well pump.
There were several cracks in the down pipe, although they could not determine if they "went through", but they were located at joints. They replace all the down piping - it needed it badly. We would have water and then it would stop again - as before, just not as quickly - an airlock. My neighbor was coming over to remove the airlock for me until we could get another pressure valve for the top of the well. He tightened the one that was on there first and that seems to have fixed the airlock issue. He figures that the washer in the valve went bad. So for the last couple of days we have had water off and on and since yesterday it has been as it should be. Thank you for your help. I greatly appreciate being able to get additional input and a new set of eyes on the problem. My dh is dealing with the loss of his father this past week so I was able to address many of the possibilities brought up here to the men who were helping us. I am also in the process of locating a 7gpm pump to put into the well instead. Thank you for that advice and the links. |
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Thank you very much. I brought this to their attention at the time you suggested it, but I was told that the pressure was holding so it couldn't be a leak. The water never drained out and the pressure never leaked even after several hours. I do not know how serious the cracks in the down pipe were, but when it would stop delivering water and the pressure would not rise past 20, it was definitely getting air in the lines somehow. Very frustrating when they pull the pump at least 6 times and wouldn't check for leaks in the piping at any of those times when I asked. Additionally, I was told the pressure valve at the top of the well was working, but apparently it was only sporadic. |
Saffron,
With the correct pump for the application I have never seen an air lock in a submersible pump. With too much of a head on an incorrectly selected pump you will think you have an air lock because that is how it behaves. Air locks happen mostly in jet pumps. Did you ever get the Jacuzzi pump information? |
Agmantoo,
The number on the Jacuzzi is:2445089003 It does say Franklin on it, but it also has Jacuzzi. Another question: is a pressure relief valve at the top of the head necessary or can you use a plug? I ask because the pressure relief valve there went out and we can not find one rated for our well? Advice on that is greatly appreciated (Who am I kidding, advice on any of it s always appreciated) |
The number you provided is for the Franklin motor.
In your situation with the deep well it is not necessary to have the pressure relief valve. If it were mine I would plug it. Plugging it could help your problem depending on how badly it is malfunctioning. I rarely see a system with a relief valve anymore. |
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