CDL, DOT, log book for tractors...

.................This kinda highlights the fact that there , ARE , Too many laws , too much regulation , Too much interference by the feds in our private business and affairs . We need Less complexity , not more ! And , too think I've been advocating passage of the Health care bill . Too many folks sucking on the Federal Itty Tay , lol ! , fordy

Doggone it! I just washed the mud off the UDLX and was gonna take Ma into town to the fish fry tonight.

Umm... The regs I was referring to, that are currently in force, aren't the feds-- They're state.
And I happen to think they should exist.

We worked on a ranch once that was connected to a large farm. (The owner is one of the largest, single subsidy recipients in the country, btw).
In Nebraska, so long as you aren't on a public roadway, your trucks don't need to meet any kind of standards. (Or, if you're on a public roadway that isn't likely to be patrolled...) Most of the roads the guys drove were private ones, owned by the farm itself. But they were often on the county roads as well.

Consequently, the farm's trucks were driven by completely unlicensed drivers. (I mean not only did they not have CDLs, they didn't have basic drivers licenses). Not a single truck would have passed a DOT inspection. None of them had brakes. One didn't have any lights except headlights. They used $2 WalMart flashlights, duct taped to the top of the trailer, for tail lights after it got rear ended by another truck... The trailers were literally falling apart. That is, they would leave pieces on the road. And so on and so forth.


I have no problems whatsoever with the requirements outlined.

And I just mean that most people in this thread aren't in farming to the scale that would be affected. (Or already is, for those of us who live in states that already have these regulations). Consequently, there are a lot of people who've commented that really don't understand what would be affected.

__________________
~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

Erin, I don't know how to say this any plainer. Any truck in a farm op over 10K GVWR IS a CMV. Now your State may have exemptions for all farm trucks in intrastate travel or maybe you never broke the 150 mi exemption under the Fed regs, but using the Fed regs as outlined in the OP and applying them to the State- there's no way you can avoid being a CMV! NY did what this article is talking about more or less- adopted the Fed regs as State law. So now every farm vehicle over 10K is a CMV and has to fly USDOT # and company name, comply with equipment regs, etc. But the Fed Reg has exemptions for licensing or Farm vehicles and other requirements.

You can twist it any way you want, but facts are facts.

The feds have a massive amount of laws regulating travel on the roads for business. Farming - including hauling a couple crates of garden produce to a eamers market - is business.

Many states offer various exemptions to the fedral regulation. The law is there, but the local folk don't bother to enforce it.

What is happening in Pennsylvania - and 4 other states to some degree - is a real change on that.

The feds are saying to the state comply with the whole thick book of rules on everyone - right down to the fella or gal with a few boxes of pickles going to market - or lose fed tax money.

If the states comply, they get to write a whole lot of tickets to offenders. It does make money for the state.

Looking at the tax fix all the states are in....

How do you think this is gonna go, Erinp?

Really?

There are about 20 different plans & counter plans for Penn floating around. I'm sure you've seen a rather 'gentle' version.

But there are also some much more 'harsh' versions that are just as likely to be law.

And yea, it will affect you. Most people get their food from real farmers. If costs go up, if restrictions increase on who can drive a tractor - then food prices are going to go up.

Perhaps we are just not understanding each other, but I really don't quite follow your train of thought on this. If you like the heavy regulation & tax collection and rising food prices, that's cool. But you seem to want it both ways - all the books thrown at all farmers, but it shouldn't affect anyone because your local county hasn't bothered to enforce anything.

Well - that's the point. _That_ will change if this test pilot law comes to be, and will then expand to the other 49 states.


--->Paul

Actually, we don't have any facts. All we have is a second-hand article.

Does anyone have a link to the proposed regulations?

For pickups, yes.
My state as well as every other state in the region...
However, it's all moot unless we have a copy of the actual proposal, rather than second hand hysteria...

__________________
~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

You need to make up your mind Erin. The facts we have are the current FMCSR rules as applied to interstate commerce. What we don't have is a clear understanding of the exact proposed rules in PA. Trying to use KS or NE local law to say what the rest of the country does gets you no where. If they intend to adopt the FMCSR as State law, as NY and other states have done, then I can give first hand information on just what changed. If you prefer to go guess and by gosh- fine.

(Or SD, or ND, or CO, or WY.... lol
Like I said, every other state in the region...)

Does this mean you have no clue either of what the proposed reg.s are?
Surely if this going into effect today, there's something available to read? (Other than a second-hand article)
Otherwise it just seems silly to waste a good panic...

__________________
~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

Most states, in order to use state enforcement personel and obtain federal MCSAP funding to finance DOT truck inspections in their state, HAVE already adopted FMCSR regulations 'In Toto' a legal way of saying the whole magula...

The Feds have a 150 mile exemption for farm equipment transporting the farmer's actual products.

Now they want the states to enforce what laws they have already adopted. Their way of making this happen is to threaten to withdrawl Federal Highway Funding money...

That's how the made the states return to a 21 yr old drinking age, adopt 0.08 BAC for DWI, etc.

Pennsylvania is already trying to balance the budget by fining the truckers. Most DOT inspections don't result in multiple tickets; some states never fine as a result of out of service items found in inspections. Some, like Ohio, focus on one issue and fine you for that. PA has started issuing a ticket for EACH OOS infraction found, it is now common to collect 5 - 10 $150.00 tickets from one bad inspection. This will be another revenue producer and all the have to do is adopt a resolution to enforce laws they already have in place. It's a Win - Win for Gov. Spendel...

B.O.H.I.C.A....Bend Over, Here it comes...Again!

Well if that's what it is, it's already in effect in every state I've ever lived in...

One of the exemptions I was referring to (because, afterall, how many farmers go more than 150 miles from their place for work-related trips?)

Also, wrt to a CMV:
It's an easy argument that a bi-annual trip to the sale barn, 200 miles away, is not the "regular use" of one's 1 ton pickup. Ie, an exemption.
But, if someone makes it part of their business to deliver cattle to Denver once a week, 200 miles away, that's an obvious commercial use of their vehicle.

However, there is a differentiation between trucks and pickups.
A pickup can haul within that 150 mile range with essentially no changes, but a semi still has to meet DOT inspection, have a CDL driver, etc.

__________________
~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

Erin, more importantly, how many farmers are hauling just their own stuff??? Haul a load of your neighbors corn ten feet and you are operating a CMV outside the exemption...

Interesting little legal detail that is true in many places: we own the road to the center of the road. Since we own the land on both sides of the road, as is common with many farms, that means we own the whole road. The public merely has a right of way to travel on our land. (We get taxed on the land right to the center of the road, both sides - this is all in the books.) This means that when I'm driving from one of my fields to another I'm always on my own land, even if I'm driving right down the middle of the road. I'm quite greatfull that the town plows my six miles of road but I'm not required to get any special license to drive on my land. It says so right in the law books. The only vehicle I have registered, inspected and licensed is the vehicle I take off our land - our delivery vehicle.

Feds may have a tough time with this on a states rights issue. Some states pushed back when the feds tried to impose a federal speed limit and just stopped accepting federal highway funds.

__________________
SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

Of course. That would make a commercial enterprise, beyond just the vehicle.

__________________
~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

The key word in the definition is "or", as in "a motor vehicle designed OR...". If you want to argue the FMCSR definitions and regs you need to know how to read them. Also, that definition is not normal definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle which sates the GVWR or CGRWR over 10K.

BTW- There is NO differentiation between a "pickup" and "truck". Please, go to the FMCSR and find a definition that shows a difference between a "pickup" and a "truck". You can't because it's not in there. There is no differentiation because the definition is keyed on GVWR not body design. And just to be clear, that semi can haul within 150 miles and be within the exemption. No DOT inspection unless the State allows it (NY used to not allow it for instance) and the licensing is a State issue, not a Federal issue.

You seem to want to apply State laws and Federal laws as it fits your argument. It doesn't work that way.

Umm... I pulled those quotes directly from FMCSR website. I'm not sure how much more official it gets...

However, you seem to be getting ruder and ruder.
I'm not sure what I've said to deserve it, but I try not to converse with people who can't mind their manners.

__________________
~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

Many 3/4 ton and most all 1 ton pickups are over the 10,000 level.

A 1/2 ton pickup with the right trailer behind it may cross the 10,000 rule.

Your argument on all this is lost on me, you seem to go in circles, without a point. As mentioned, you argue for either state or fedral laws depending on which suits your argument.

The issue I brought up is that, whatever your local state rules are, the fed govt is coming looking for you, to impose the fedral rules.

Your argument back is that, well, where you are, the state rules are pretty lax, and on top of that the local counties don't even enforce the lax state rules.

My point was, _that_ is going to change.

I'm not really understanding your repeating that your local and state laws are not nearly so strict?

I know.

I understand that.

The Feds are coming, and they are coming for you & me.

Somewhere, we must be on a different world, because what you are saying here just doesn't seem to apply to the issue. State & local law & attitudes won't no longer apply. So you can talk all you want about how nice your state is.

Doesn't matter.

The Feds are changing the rules, and trying very hard to apply cross country commercial trucker rules to any farm activity.

That is _their_ intent.

They've started with 5 states, Pennsylvania got on the hook the worst because there are more per capita road accidents with farmers (Amish situation) in Pennsylvania, and so the battle starts there.

The Fed view is to apply DOT regs to any farm vehicle of any kind any time it gets on or crosses any road. And collect as much tax & fines as you can from these activities.

It matters nothing what your state currently does.

The Feds are coming.

I'm not interested in posting 100 links to 'prove' that to you. It just is how it is. You can look around yourself if you need more proof. We the people, or we the states, can be prepared & push back on this if we don't like it.

Or we can do nothing.

Talking about what your state currently allows seems pointless? I don't mean that to be rude to you in any way, but - I really don't get any of your point at all in this thread?

My point is that the Fedral folks want to make all the states toe the line and add fines, inspections, and DOT rules to practically every ag implement. They are strating with a test state or 5, and will expand from there. Current rules have gotten to apply to vehicles over 10,000lb (pickups trucks trailers), or implements of husbandry over 17,000lbs - but the rules are written to apply to any size, any vehicle. How bad will this hurt family farms when they can't drive their grain, hay, or tractors from field to field or to market unless they spend _lots_ more? The intent of the rule is to apply to everyone, and as the states think it over, there can be a lot of money to be made from the inspections, licences, and fines..... This is _not_ good for any of us farming, including hauling a few greens to a farmer's market......

Nothing you have said really relates to that issue (that I can understand), and without meaning anything rude at all, what _is_ it you are really talking about?

I just don't understand, perhaps if you would start over with what you point is? I'm sorry I don't get it. I am interested in your thoughts, I just don't understand? Perhaps I'm really dense, but you need to outline your point for me a little better.

Thank you,

--->Paul

Please don't anyone tell our Governor here in Mass. about this , We are getting hammered enough with Taxes and Fees .
Effective March 1st , Caddy Devil imposed a FEE of $ 5.00 if You have to Go to a Registry of Motor Vehicles and/or Talk to a RMV Employee on the Phone or in Person.
He also Authorized No Public Notice of this new fee , as it cost $$$$.
They Legislation found out when they read it in the Boston Herald over the weekend .
Bob
This is why We want to leave Mass. for either Nh. or Tn.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/pol...ome&position=1

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/pol...ome&position=6

Get pulled over by an officer that has a little bit of knowledge and wants to prove it. Then after you're parked and issued citations you can find out the interpretation of the law.

Still want to know why a "farmer" should be above laws on public roads.

__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self confidence"
Robert Frost

Erin, I'm not trying to be rude, but as Rambler points out, you talk in circles and seem intent on trying to prove your point by using parts of this and parts of that. The definition you give may have come from the FMCSR, but there are parts of the FMCSR that are used for different applications, so without having the correct definition or realizing the differences you can read something and walk off believing you have the proper information and be completely wrong.

FWIW- I spent nearly 6 years as a New York State Police CVEU DOT Inspector, the last 6 of my 23 year career. I completed numerous courses to keep my federal credentials (the NYSP dumps any member who fails any test, no "do overs", no one else does that!) and spent many weeks in Albany at training sessions and at the Mass SP Academy for further training. I was instructed by FMCSR rules committee members on our Staff, Instructors from Rhode Island, Wyoming, Delaware and other States. This was no walk in the park and required constant review and updating throughout my time on the CVEU.

The point is the FMCSR, like it or not, is not a simple set of rules and trying to apply local enforcement practices as the "norm" elsewhere just doesn't work. What your local Inspectors or police may or may not do has little to no bearing on what happens elsewhere. Your argument lacks the simple foundation of a knowledge of the FMCSR and how it's supposed to be applied and practiced. Although anecdotal evidence suggests that each DOT Inspector seems to have his own set of rules to go by, the goal is and has been to have uniform enforcement through out the country and every Inspector I've dealt with has tried to reach that goal.

So if I came off as rude then you have my apology, but without the needed information you can't make a coherent argument on how things may or may not work out.

They should not. That is the point of all this. Currently they are not above the law, nor should they be.

Over the road truckers haul cargo long distances, for long periods of time. They travel at high speeds, with heavy monolithic items. They can be a long way from home on unfamiliar roads.

Farmers tend to travel short distances in short routes on secondary roads with grains or other flowable loads. Tractors & large wagons travel at slow speeds - under 30 mph. They are typically on roads they are very familiar with.

It does not seem unreasonable to me that the different situations can - and should - be governed by different rules?

There are many rules for farmers. We are not in any way 'above the law' as you put it.

--->Paul