CDL, DOT, log book for tractors...

blooba · #21 02/26/10, 08:26 AM

ok, bret its always good to have a 2nd pair of eyes on things and share their knowledge.

Quote:

PennDOT and FMSCA offered assurances that farm tractors are exempt from all of the new motor carrier regulations during a recent meeting before the state House and Senate Transportation Committees.

Although it does look like implements pulled by truck do apply. I can't find any wording of whether its intrastate or interstate.

And why it is only applying to PA so far is because

Quote:

In 2007, the Federal Motor Carrier Administration of the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) did an audit of
Pennsylvania’s state highway safety regulations (beyond just farm
vehicle issues) and determined that they are “less stringent” than
federal standards. Pennsylvania is one of only five states that have been
audited to date. It appears however, that those other states have
managed to work out some agreements with the USDOT that
avoid the extreme restrictions and regulations described here without losing funding.

james dilley · #22 02/26/10, 08:59 AM

Great story on this , in the Farm & Dairy online newspaper. Looks like P a was s elected because, of the number of the Amish residents. in the state.

Beeman · #23 02/26/10, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Okay, as a recently retired NYSP DOT Inspector I'm finding some drastic holes in this story. First off, unless PA adopts the FMCSA rules then the Regs have no effect on INTRASTATE trucking. A commercial vehicle is any vehicle engaged in a commercial enterprise (the opportunity for compensation exists) with a GVWR or combined GVWR exceeding 10,000 lbs. That includes farmers, stock cars, lawn and garden, etc. Now my first question would be if the story is talking about tractors or truck-tractors. A farm tractor seldom meets the definition of a motor vehicle. The same thing goes for implements, although IIRC they are mentioned when engaged in interstate travel.

Logs are not required for travel under 100 air miles for vehicles over 26K GVWr and 150miles for those 10-26K last I knew. So unless something has changed the Fed rules do not apply when staying within a state and 100-150 miles. Same for the Federal Medical card requirements. Same for licensing.

Before everyone goes off you need to find the actual information and see what it says. If PA did like NY a few years back and just adopts the FMCSA rules entirely as State Law then that's not a Federal issue but a State issue.

Now there you go throwing truth and common sense into a discussion, what a party pooper. Better we yell and scream and jump to conclusions about the gov't killing the family farm.

What is it about farms that make them so above the law and below taxing?

Wis Bang 2 · #24 02/26/10, 01:23 PM

FMCSR [Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations] has a few exemptions for CMV over 26,000GVWR. PA, like MOST states has already adopted the FMCSR 'in toto' regarding CMV.

Farmers are exempt from FMCSR when transporting their OWN products within 150 miles of the farm...the problem is too many farm tractor trailers [CMVs] are also used to transport farm products that do not belong to the farmer.

The state Motor Carrier Enforcement personel have not been checking 'farm' tractor trailers; most likely because they will have a hard time figuring out if it is the farmer's corn; or his neighbors. The Feds want this 'loophole' closed.

CMV drivers must meet 'qualifications' [FMCSR Part 391] by being over 21, physically [medical] certified, etc.

So a farmer w/ storage and a dryer can buy corn from his neighbor, load it in his dump trailer and haul it home, dry it, store it and deliver it to market [within 150 miles] without a CDL and Med Cert. Hauling that same load for his neighbor without taking ownership is commerce and lies outside the exemption.

Traveling w/ farm implements shouldn't be affected but legiscritters need to do something. Here they are passing a law that is already in the books from their adoption fo the FMCSR so I guess they had to add some feel good 'protect the children' stuff too...I think that part is foolish and will be more diffficult to enforce.

BTW CMV drivers can drive 11 hours and work 14 hours [including the driving] and then must take ten hours off.

Those who stay within a 100 air-mile radius [114.3 miles as the crow flys] are exempt from a log IF...they return to their start point within 12 consecutive hours and take ten hours off b/4 returning to work another shift. That won't work for plowing, planting & harvesting...

Bret4207 · #25 02/26/10, 06:05 PM

FMCSR regs still only apply for INTERSTATE commerce. The sticker is if your state adopts those rules. I urge caution in jumping to conclusions in this till you have the whole story. Simple things like "tractor" mean the thing what pulls a semi trailer in the FMCSR, not a farm tractor. Things like that often get misconstrued.

rambler · #26 02/26/10, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

FMCSR regs still only apply for INTERSTATE commerce. The sticker is if your state adopts those rules. I urge caution in jumping to conclusions in this till you have the whole story. Simple things like "tractor" mean the thing what pulls a semi trailer in the FMCSR, not a farm tractor. Things like that often get misconstrued.

If you look at the long history of this, at times all ag vehicles, including farm tractors, were included in it. At this time it is not understood that they are, indeed, _excluded_. Some people have made some promises, but that doesn't mean things will be written the way they are 'promised'.

Ag intrests have worked long & hard to get things modified to where they are. What you are seeing is not what was originally begun.

As you know with politics, things can quickly flip back to what was.....

=====
Why is ag treated differently? People in the USA want cheap food. With cheap food, politicians get re-elected. So, things are different in the ag world.

Most farmers transport big loads for short distances in fall on backwards roads. This is vastly different than cross state or cross country transport of grain to a port. As different as it is, it probably should be regulated differently? As the old system did?

--->Paul

fordy · #27 02/26/10, 11:20 PM

..............In Tx the Ag(state) limit on hay and cattle trailers is 34,000 . I can just visualize a DOT officer pulling over an old rancher and asking him for his log book , he might hear some very strong language ! , fordy

Bret4207 · #28 02/27/10, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

If you look at the long history of this, at times all ag vehicles, including farm tractors, were included in it.

--->Paul

At what period in time were farm tractors included in the Interstate Commerce rules for highway travel? I'm unaware of any period or place in this country where farm tractors are or ever where licensed as motor vehicles.

Let me repeat- NONE of the Federal regs apply unless there is interstate commerce OR your State adopts the Federal regs as their law.

ErinP · #29 02/27/10, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

I do understand your concern as to semi trucks.

It seems rediculous for tractors, or even 'straight trucks' from pickups to twin screw trucks.

These trucks only run 5 - 20 mile trips most of the time, hauling the grain to the nearest elevator in between combining it.

Logs & timebooks and CDL seems beyond silly for that sort of road use. There is a difference between 8 hour shift driving, and short hauls in smaller trucks.

Rules & regulations should reflect those differences.

--->Paul

They do.

(How many of you actually read this??)

Let's recap, from the article (since I can't find it anywhere else):

Quote:

– Age restrictions: No one under the age of 18 will be able to drive a farm vehicle, including implements, with a combined weight of more than 17,000 pounds.

17K lbs is a big tractor. It's not just a 4020 that many of us drove when we were young...

Quote:

– Medical certification: Drivers must receive a valid medical certificate to determine if they are physically qualified to drive. Drivers of farm vehicles weighing more than 17,000 pounds will also need a certification whenever the truck is operated more than 150 miles from the farm.

Many ag. states already have similar regs. for the same reason.

If you're going to be driving like a pro, you should be licensed like a pro. BTW, there's really nothing to a DOT physical...
A "truck" btw, does not refer to your little 1 ton diesel pickup (or smaller) it refers to a truck. A straight truck or a semi.

Quote:

– Driver’s logs: Drivers will be subject to similar hours of service as trucking companies. Those standards include break time and keeping a log of driver’s activity.

Again, if you're going to be driving like a pro, you should be regulated like a pro.

Quote:

– Vehicle inspection: Farmers will be required to conduct pre-trip inspections and complete written post-trip safety reports.

As mentioned, many ag. states already have regulations for this. If you're on the highway, your truck will meet DOT regs. or you will be fined accordingly. Or shut down.

And I'm not seeing where tractors are considered "vehicles."

Bret4207 · #30 02/27/10, 03:51 PM

Actually your 1 ton dually may well have a GVWR over 10K and be a commercial vehicle, just like a Kenworth.

ErinP · #31 02/27/10, 04:44 PM

That would probably depend upon usage/purpose and existing state regs.

But for the purpose of this article, pickups are not considered "trucks."

Beeman · #32 02/27/10, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Actually your 1 ton dually may well have a GVWR over 10K and be a commercial vehicle, just like a Kenworth.

Especially if it's towing a trailer with a high GVW. Actual weight doesn't matter only weight rating, you can be empty.

liquorlawman · #33 02/27/10, 07:01 PM

for those with health issues like diabetes and high blood pressure this is going to change things. There are strict rules about this to obtain a CDL.

liquorlawman · #34 02/27/10, 07:01 PM

and to those that refuse to do the inspections and paperwork...well if you like paying large fines you do not have to do either

Bret4207 · #35 02/28/10, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

That would probably depend upon usage/purpose and existing state regs.

But for the purpose of this article, pickups are not considered "trucks."

We're not talking State Regs, we're talking Federal regs being used by the State and I can assure you, having spent the last 5 years of my career as a DOT Inspector, that a "pickup" can most certainly be a Commercial Motor Vehicle as can a Honda Civic or even a Motorcycle if it's carrying certain HazMat. A half ton pickup with a GVWR of 7200 lbs and trailer with a GVWR of 3500 lbs engaged in a commercial operation IS a CMV under Federal rules and some State rules.

I don't mean to be rude or argumentative, but this is one area where I do have an intimate knowledge of the laws and rules. Trust me on this one.

ErinP · #36 02/28/10, 10:01 AM

I'm not disagreeing with you. Reread my post.

I'm just saying that just because you have a 1 ton pickup, with a trailer on it, does not mean you'll be regulated by DOT requirements anymore than you are now in states that already have similar regs. on the books.

And if you were a DOT inspector, then you know as well as I that a 1 ton pickup is not usually included in the regs. unless it's a commercial business. (Hauling campers for dealerships, for example).
Ie, it depends upon usage/purpose.

A pickup is not a "truck".

Bret4207 · #37 02/28/10, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

I'm not disagreeing with you. Reread my post.

I'm just saying that just because you have a 1 ton pickup, with a trailer on it, does not mean you'll be regulated by DOT requirements anymore than you are now in states that already have similar regs. on the books.

And if you were a DOT inspector, then you know as well as I that a 1 ton pickup is not usually included in the regs. unless it's a commercial business. (Hauling campers for dealerships, for example).
Ie, it depends upon usage/purpose.

A pickup is not a "truck".

Well, it appears you are disagreeing. ANY vehicle or combination of vehicles with a GVWR or CGVWR over 10K engaged in a commercial operation (lawn and garden, contractor, garbage pickup, farmer, etc) IS a CMV. That part is simple. The issue seems to be some people are trying to apply Federal Regs to state law and vice versa and failing to make simple distinctions such as the difference between a tractor (Kenworth/Pete/etc) and a tractor (Deere/Case/IH).

edcopp · #38 02/28/10, 10:38 AM

Sounds like just another source of taxation for our government agencies, which are being run (into the ground) by a band of incompetents.

Seems to be directed toward the Amish. Sounds like a discrimination issue, complete with taxation. Issuing of a license is a tax. Most Amish do not want to be photographed (for a drivers license). Until now this has been their right protected by the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Keeping of a LOG BOOK is a never ending source of fines if the LEO reading the book knows how to read it (most do not).

Keeping a log would require an entry each time that the farm vehicle goes on to the public road. At that point the fuel used would be subject to fuel taxes for road use. At this point ag fuel is not taxed for road use. So somebody would get the job of stopping and making a log entry each and every time that the vehicle enters or/and leaves the public road. $$$ for the tax collector. Now this seperation of uses for the fuel should be somewhat complicated, and would no doubt require government oversight. In other words you figure out how much fuel was used on the public road, and what the tax is on that, pay the tax in a timely manner. Then the newly created job of oversight inspector assumes that you are cheating and does it all again. The constant battle begins.

Now comes the matter of insurance. Since you as a farmer are now operating a commercial motor vehicle on the public road at least some of the time you will need to be insured. Insurance agents, companies, adjusters, inspectors and so on love this kind of talk $$$ it is just money in the bank.

The medical examiners card was mentioned. Here is another source of revenue for the medical professionals. They are having a hard time right now and could use some extra income. Not to mention that this card must be carried on the person of the operator. If not he/she will be subject to a fine $$$ money for the government, they are having a hard time too.

The proposal is clear to me. More fees and expenses to fatten the pockets of the government and big business. They will create more useless jobs for paper shufflers, and the cost will have to be passed on to the public. There is no other place to get the money to operate.

Oh Well, taxation without representation is what got us where we are today.

ErinP · #39 02/28/10, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

ANY vehicle or combination of vehicles with a GVWR or CGVWR over 10K engaged in a commercial operation (lawn and garden, contractor, garbage pickup, farmer, etc) IS a CMV. T

That's what I keep saying! lol

However, farming is not usually considered in the same category as other commercial enterprises. (There are numerous exemptions for precisely this reason)

I live in a state that already has regulations like those mentioned in the article.
Yet when we haul several tons of salt on the flatbed with our 1 ton pickup, we are not considered a truck.

Are there states that don't differentiate? I'm sure there are. However, there was nothing in that article to indicate that's what would be in the regs. for any federal legislation. Particularly since it looks a lot like a lot of states' regs. already in existence.

ErinP · #40 02/28/10, 11:21 AM

Actually, what this entire conversation looks like is too many people who simply don't understand the laws that already exist.
But then, if you don't have things like a semi, a large straight truck, grain carts, etc. there's no reason you should...