Extreme Composting

SueMc · #**541** 07/27/10, 05:30 PM

Many yrs ago National Geographic did a very nice article and their cover on compost. There were great photos of the microbes, worms ect., that do all the hard work breaking down the materials. This thread has inspired me to dig through my nat geo boxes in the attic (yeah, I'm one of those!) and find that issue. It's time for a re-read.
Thanks FR for good advice all the way around.

NEMarvin · #**542** 07/27/10, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

Whereas our resident problem child will not moderate it's own attitude, and, whereas the HT administration is gracious enough to allow such subtle malicious undertone to persist, (undoubtedly in the spirit of fairness and forgiveness, two worthy concepts to which I do subscribe) I will hereby cease acknowledging the presence of said problem child either in answer or response, and I strongly encourage all other posters in this thread to do the same.
Said problem child has instigated conflict in other threads, with the unwitting assistance of otherwise good people, (though perhaps lacking a bit of patience and necessary temperance) to the end that good and worthy threads have been closed.
I have no doubt that said problem child intends the same end here, all paper thin and soothing expressions on it's part to the contrary aside.....
Ignore the problem, folks, and though it may take time, it will have no choice but to go away. If we refuse to engage it, the mods will be free to eliminate the problem rather than close the thread.

Many other boards have a feature that allows you to "Ignore This User." vBulletin (software this forum is based in) may or may not, but I believe that it probably does. Perhaps the administrator/moderator could be persuaded to add this feature (usually just and administrative change on the control panel), and we could make it easier to ignore said problem child.

ChristieAcres · #**543** 07/27/10, 10:01 PM

Compost update:

All of the chicken manure/straw was processed very well under the rabbit hutches. There was no sign of the veggies and other materials that were put in, even the kits who didn't make it during a cold snap- no sign of even bones. I believe the heat of those piles helped keep my rabbits warmer during the colder nights, too.

My garden compost pile is doing more than provide extra nutrients...downhill slightly to the Delicata Squash... It dawned on me just today that pile has been providing additional heat at night, which is why I am getting such excellent growth. I couldn't have planned that one better!

Remembering the gal who ran that Angora farm... Her barn was on a grade...on one side was an enormous grapevine that bore hundreds of pounds of fruit. Maybe I should move my rabbit hutch in the garden OR plant some grapes on the downhill side of them...

silverbackMP · #**544** 07/27/10, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyld thang

Well, hey, if the safe handling of pathogens is of no concern, then handle away. I'm not thinking particularly of the INSIDE of a compost pile, but the edges, where temps are much less consistant. Out west here springs and ground water get CONTAMINATED by cow dung(e coli for instance), as well as in other areas with porous soils. If a caution about handling pathogens in areas different from Forerunner's conditions is silly and irrelevant and an issue to be ignored, then that is Forerunner's perogative to do so.

And I really don't care if you ignore me, Forerunner. The moderators are free to delete my posts about tools used to handle compost, composting done on a county wide scale and run by county government, a caution that dead things and poop should not be handled willy nilly, nor the epiphany that despite all one's efforts to steward the land and make it perform like a trick pony, weather will bite you in the butt--and maybe an ear to nature will help you tweak your plans to get some food to grow.

Having bit my tounge until now, I'm pretty sure the ground water contamination that you speak of is primarily from huge feedlot/confinement operations were said manures (more so with hogs) go into huge sludge pools and become ANEROBIC. In cases such as this, with the right subsoil and water table, I'm sure water contamination is a concern.

I doubt these AEROBITIC composting operations are much of a concern; if they are, then I am very frightened (tounge in cheek) thinking about all those dead deer, elk, moose, and other animals that die a natural death/killed by predators and are left to rot on the forest/meadow floor.

It boils down to simple soil science--bacteria and fungi are the bedrock of all living things, and given an aerobotic environment, bacterias and fungi and higher organisms will outcompete or, in some cases, prey on the bad forms of ecoli (some forms are good--like those in your gut) and most other "bad" organisms.

I am now going to take Forerunner's advice.

Forerunner · #**545** 07/27/10, 10:58 PM

Lori, I just want someone to tell me where the finish line is....
At what point does fertility level off and never show further improvement.....?
If I just had that one little detail, I might take an occasional day off or something.

Forerunner · #**546** 07/27/10, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverbackMP

Having bit my tounge until now, I'm pretty sure the ground water contamination that you speak of is primarily from huge feedlot/confinement operations were said manures (more so with hogs) go into huge sludge pools and become anerobic. In cases such as this, with the right subsoil and water table, I'm sure water contamination is a concern.

I doubt these AEROBITIC composting operations are much of a concern; if they are, then I am very frightened (tounge in cheek) thinking about all those dead deer, elk, moose, and other animals that die a natural death/killed by predators and are left to rot on the forest flow.

It boils down to simple soil science--bacteria and fungus are the bedrock of all living things, and given a aerobotic environment, bacterias and fungus will outcompete the bad forms of ecoli (some forms are good) and most other "bad" organisms.

I am now going to take forerunners advice.

silverbackMP · #**547** 07/28/10, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyld thang

First off, I said I'm not concerned with the INSIDE of the pile where the temp is more consistant and hotter(which I already said. It's the EDGES of the pile, the POROSITY of the underlying soil, and the NEARNESS to groundwater that immediately supplies potable water that concerns me

I was not talking about feedlots, I was talking about OPEN RANGE, on porous pumice soils in particular(SE side of Mt Hood in ponderosa pine forest). A spring up in the mountains that we use for water when we go there(and take home water for beer btw), is closed occasionally because it tests positive for fecal bacteria contamination from when cows happen to poop on top of the immediate area of the spring and there happens to be more rainfall etc than usual and it gets washed fast into the groundwater. No, the springs are not fenced. The cow poop plops on the ground and "composts" in. In that particular spot it's all the luck of the draw with when the poop gets deposited, and add the rain to soak it in before the sun can kill it/dry it enough. Eventually the spring washes itself out clean. But not so convienient if someone depended on that water, eh?

Obviously, in this case, it doesn't take much to contaminate a spring when you have cows pooping on the ground above/upwind of it, then a thunderstorm comes right through and dumps rain to wash that down into the spring.

Animals that die in the forest have their bones picked clean in a matter of days. If it's a healthy ecosystem with predators and scavengers of course.

My question AGAIN, on the EDGES of the compost piles, where it doesn't get hot, are there any health precautions worth being mindful of?

I know I said I was going to take Forerunner's advice but....

Sounds like a localized issue to me; I am a fan of voluntarily fencing off bodies of water to livestock and utilizing watering systems. Note that for some environmentally sensitive areas this should be mandatory (which I thought it was in Oregon).

Yes, animals that die in the forest is a healthy ecosystem but so is cow manure in a field environemnt (except for localized issues such as the one your describe); they are just replacing what buffalo would have done 200 years ago. Compost is just speeding up this process and as long as there is not a fractured bedrock type situation (very localized issue) there should be no issue.

I am pretty sure Forerunner's area (not sure on where in Illinois) does not contain a base of fracture bedrock but is probably--from top to bottom--clay/loam, clay, bentonite clay (spelling?), and solid limestone (which is a heck of a natural filter), may also have a little coal deep down (which is also a natural filter). Clay, by its nature, is anerobic ("bad" organisms)--any addition of humus (i.e. lignin and cellulose) will open up the clay and allow the "good" organisms to thrive (with proper nutrients also found in compost) which also creates further aeration. Bottom line; environments are different and "best management practices" may need to be adapted to various environments/climates/local conditions. What is good for the grain belt may not work in an irrigated high desert.

As far as the answer to your question; most compost piles get turned at least once which re-activate the high temps; also different bacterias, fungi, nematodes, and earth worms work the outside edges which should eliminate most any problems. Note that earthworm's main diet is bacteria and that there are many many kinds of predatory bacteria, nematodes, and other critters (even some pedatory fungi). I doubt that there as many bacteria (and thus earth worms) in a high desert (I'm assuming your in Western Oregon) as there are in the eastern part of the US (middle of Kansas and east). Again--best managment practices may vary by environment.

Note that I am not (yet) an expert but my thoughts come from observation, common sense, and mucho book learning I've undertaken as I'm getting ready to establish my chestnut orchard and future cow/sheep operation and preparing to start a dual masters from Texas AM (distance) in January (Masters in Natural Resources and another in Agricultural Development--the GI Bill is paying for most of it). I wish I could get a degree in Soil Science but that requires lab work and actually being "in college"--I still need a day job.

My observation is from watching much row crop ground having the life sucked out of it by conventional farming; my farm (currently share rented to a friend-of-the-family "big" farmer and in Soybeans) has about 0% humus from eyeballing it vs my grandmother CRP farms (in CRP about 20 years now) that are right down the road; her "CRP Farms" have a black rich oxigenated healthy soil. I suspect that if cattle were run on the CRP farms in a intentensive grazing situation, the soil/grass would be even better. Other observations on agricultural practices come from experiences in China, Korea, Japan, and middle east where they have been sucessfully farming "small scale" for millenia. My other life observation is hauling mucho organic material into my parents garden since I was kid. They have switched to notill BTW and are utilzing a complete mulch of spoiled hay.

I'm for anything organic, sustainable, permaculture, intensive grazing, low input, no till, low till, value added, insert current buzzword that can be scaled up--a permaculture "cobb village" is not going to feed the world but a complete rethinking of agriculture might.

ChristieAcres · #**548** 07/28/10, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Lori, I just want someone to tell me where the finish line is....
At what point does fertility level off and never show further improvement.....?
If I just had that one little detail, I might take an occasional day off or something.

The problem with a finish line? It means the race is over. What fun is that?!

Q- When the field is ready to plant. You'll have to make that call. What we may see as improvement, may be more than what is necessary. Sometimes, less is more. Other times, more is just right. When I plant Nasturtiums, I know I will get more blooms if I plant in somewhat average soil conditions. If I plant them in rich soil, I get huge leaves and lots of growth, and less blooms. Where I plant Blueberries is higher acid soil than what some of the other varieties prefer. I have to adjust conditions to meet what I am growing and can't use a blanket approach. Paquebot (Martin) speaks of this when he wrote about planting tomatoes. He digs a hole, don't remember the depth, and adds his rich mix specific for tomatoes. I like to dig at least a foot down, and add a few inches of rotting compost, then fill the hole with 1/2 compost/1/2 soil. I'd do something like that for corn, too, or any heavy feeder.

The answer also likely lies in the depth of fertility you are going for. Would I prepare a field, rather than my beds, for planting, I would determine the depth of the rich topsoil needed to sustain the crops I choose to plant there. Once I reached the conditions required for that particular crop, I would then plant the field, concentrating the richest soil in the wide-rows, rather than the paths. As needed, I would add compost, manure tea, green manure tea (i.e. Comfrey or Nettle as natural fertilizer), otherwise calling that field "done for that year." Using Intensive planting techniques in wide-row would be my preference. I would still be Companion Planting, even in a larger field, rotating crops, and preparing the area at the end of the growing season, to overwinter. I would include a schedule to plant green manures, also.

A great deal can be said for the supporting points of SilverbackMP's post (regarding small scale farming), i.e. :

Quote:

I'm for anything organic, sustainable, permaculture, intensive grazing, low input, no till, low till, value added, insert current buzzword that can be scaled up--a permaculture "cobb village" is not going to feed the world but a complete rethinking of agriculture might.

I would consider much applicable for small scale, however, larger scale farming utilizing these principles, requires some sort of equipment and/or a lot more hands. What you have is what you have and you work it accordingly. We would like to get a small tractor, too, to utilize for dirt work (our property is mildly to moderately, to rolling in slopes). We don't have any actual level areas unless we make them that way.

Since mine is "small scale," I have adapted to much of this, using no-till, increasingly self-sustaining (with a little help from my friends- rabbits/chickens). I have 40 Comfrey Plants and plenty of Nettles (in our back 5 acre forest, where they should stay...), have (10) rabbits or more at a time w/the compost operation under their hutches, and a few compost piles. Our (16) chickens produce plenty of eggs for us to use and we sell the extra. Their bedding must go somewhere, right? When I clean the chicken house (yes, me, my job), I spread all the straw/manure under the rabbit hutches, and some I dump right on the compost pile. That is being layered.

Important to note here. We have our compost piles away from our source of water and there is no way they can leach into any flowing water. When it rains, they are out of the path of the drainage. I am not concerned about some leaching into the soil where I have these piles (due to our topography, rocky soil conditions beneath, and the water table? You get Artesian Water almost 300 feet down...).

I don't believe there is a broad brush approach you can apply to all of this. One of the reasons I posted my gardening thread was to show the difference in our climate, weather, and the methods I am using. They work for me, HERE, but sure won't work for some climates. If I lived elsewhere, I wouldn't necessarily be gardening in raised beds (French Intensive in wide rows would be my choice).

Back to manure... You would think it a problem for that Rabbit Breeder to have 50-100 rabbits in a barn, with alot of the urine/manure leaching into the soil... She bagged up the manure and gave it away to local gardeners/farmers. She would regularly spray under the rabbit cages, towards the back of the barn, where it would then drain into the ground, where that enormous grapevine grew. How much was too much for that grapevine? It was flourishing and producing hundreds of pounds of delicious juicy grapes. My take? I believe the grapevine adjusted to the conditions and flourished due to them. I have seen evergreens die due to manures being highly concentrated. A grapevine isn't an evergreen.

mickm · #**549** 07/28/10, 11:52 AM

Found this a few days ago and have spent way toooooo much time reading it. Composting my mind and enthusiasm, you might say!

I live in KS, and have room, almost unlimited materialand enthusiasm. I have started my own version of "extreme" composting , and am a little worried about moisture. Gets awfully hot, dry and windy here. I know I read where forerunner mentioned the moisture of a "semi-wet sponge" Should that be the whole pile? Should I wet it down?

In my smaller compost piles, I always covered and turned. Should I cover my extreme pile?

I have a large supply of horse manure and old hay, both from neighbors. I would love to be able to get a good amount of this ready to put on my garden sometime this winter or early spring, what would be a suggestion from the available gurus?

Soil here is very clay like, it does not drain well at all. I have always grown a small garden, but I would like to greatly increase it next year. Any suggestions on the smartest way to do this would be greatly appreciated!

mickm · #**550** 07/28/10, 11:54 AM

Oh yeah, congrats to everyone suppling information on this post!

Not the least of which is of course, Forerunner. A driven man, who can express himself is a great commodity! Amazed by the very good writing and instructions, absolute GREAT STUFF!

Forerunner · #**551** 07/28/10, 12:03 PM

Welcome aboard, Mick.
Arid Kansas would be a gratifying challenge to make grow.

Yes, that whole pile should be lightly moist, never wet and never dry.
If you build the pile with just a little excess moisture, just a little.... it will crust over with a thatch on the outer portion that will keep the interior moist enough in the driest conditions. If you have a way to cover the pile, it would benefit. Shade is an option....keep that sun off when possible. I use my benign carbon layer to protect the more nutrient rich material within.
If I were in your situation, I'd let that pile rot down well before spreading. The rich black that you'll end up with will really perk up that clay you mentioned.
What means of tillage and compost incorporation do you have at your disposal ?

mickm · #**552** 07/28/10, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

Welcome aboard, Mick.
Arid Kansas would be a gratifying challenge to make grow.

Yes, that whole pile should be lightly moist, never wet and never dry.
If you build the pile with just a little excess moisture, just a little.... it will crust over with a thatch on the outer portion that will keep the interior moist enough in the driest conditions. If you have a way to cover the pile, it would benefit. Shade is an option....keep that sun off when possible. I use my benign carbon layer to protect the more nutrient rich material within.
If I were in your situation, I'd let that pile rot down well before spreading. The rich black that you'll end up with will really perk up that clay you mentioned.
What means of tillage and compost incorporation do you have at your disposal ?

A very old and tired, but very dependable Gravely tractor, with a rotary plow and skid, and my 44 year old back! Sometimes my back is less dependable! I also have all the normal garden stuff, and could probably borrow a tractor from a local farmer who is glad for me to take his moldy hay. He even brought down several round bales the other day.

I am afraid my funding does not equal my enthusiasm!

**Cabin Fever** · #**553** 07/28/10, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyld thang

My question AGAIN, on the EDGES of the compost piles, where it doesn't get hot, are there any health precautions worth being mindful of?

My first post on this thread! I can answer your question. My background is a soil scientist (MS degree). My 30 years of professional experince has involved the management of human waste where pathogens are a primary concern! I worked for 13 years for the largest wastewater treatment facility in the upper midwest where we did do some sludge composting. For the other 17 years of my experince, I've regulated, on the state level, the treatment and disposal of sewage sludge (biosolids), assisted in writing rules and regulation for such, and even helped write the Minnesota rules for solid waste and yard waste composting. Lastly, I have written articles for BioCycle Magazine and know the editors fairly well.

Now that I have your attention, let's talk pathogens. There are three primary categories of composting that result in destroying all pathogens...I hate saying "all"....so, lets just say destroying enough human pathogens so the compost is allowed to be used in vegetable gardens, residential lawns and parks.

Method 1: Window composting where the feedstocks arw layed out in long windows. The compost heats up and the windrow is mechanically turned with a compost turner. The process of heating up and turning is repeated several times to ensure that all particles of the compost feedstock reside in the hot center part of the window for a sufficient amount of time to kill pathogens.

Method 2: Static aerated pile composting. With this method the feedstocks are mixed and stacked in large piles on top of a porous bed ..ususally woodchips. The outside of these piles are insulated with a thick cover of already finished compost. Air is pumped into the piles via a gridwork of perforated piping that is buried in the bottom layer of woodchips. All particles of the compost feedstock experince high pathogen-killing temperatures due to the pile being insulated.

Method 3: "In-vessel" composting. Compost feedstocks are placed inside of a large drum or tank-like vessel. The feedstocks are continuouly mixed and aerated assuring that all particles experince high temperatures. Some methods use large augers placed within the vessel for turning...other methods simply rotate the large drum for the mixing.

All of these method have very specific time and temperature monitoring requirements to ensure pathogen kill.

ETA: since you live in Oregon, you should know that the City of Portland has been composting biosolds for many years. I've known the City's Biosolids Program Manager, Mark Ronayne, for many years.

ChristieAcres · #**554** 07/28/10, 02:35 PM

Cabin Fever and/or Forerunner- Love to get your takes!

Wouldn't the addition of thin layers of manure, layered with straw, rotting veggies, soil on occasion, grass, Comfrey, and being completely enveloped in all the aforementioned...wouldn't that achieve a hot enough pile? This is a slow pile, constantly being added to. Would there be a concern about pathogens? Anything else I should do or have done?

Another question. I had researched online and decided to compost the chicken house debris under the rabbit hutches. In addition to the regular additions of fresh rabbit manure, urine, water was added, straw, veggies, etc... I let it compost there for 5 months, a bit longer than I planned. When I began shoveling it out from under there, no sign of the chicken manure at all. In one of these piles, 2 months ago, I buried (6) baby rabbits. The kits completely composted in that time, not even bones to be found. Should I have a concern about any pathogens? That isn't something I had thought about before.

Forerunner · #**555** 07/29/10, 07:50 AM

Generally, I use the gradual layering method in my personal compost piles (including the one I commune with). Joseph Jenkins recommends this method, adding his toilet contents each day and burying the same in carbon. My own experience is that you can "lead" a hot pile any direction you want it to go. Just add material in that direction and the heat will follow. Joseph also demonstrates that a prolonged temp of 110 plus, which is hard to avoid, let alone easy to maintain, is sufficient to kill pathogens.
My piles are typically 120+ within a foot of the surface. The key is to cover with carbon, which insulates the heating action and eliminates odors and most varmint activity.
When Western Illinois University sent out two biology majors to test multiple samples of my water (several classes of students, usually Anthropology-related, come out to tour and talk about homesteading/composting/food production/political tendencies, etc. each spring and fall) the three of us had a hard time coming up with identifiable strains of bacteria in most samples. The spring is devoid of bacterial activity. My primary hydrant, gravity-fed from the pond, had only one, very benign strain of bacteria show up, and that with effort. The pond, itself, was extremely clean.
The main upper pond, into which the lion's share of compost runoff flows, sported six different strains of bacteria, none of which were identified as harmful to man.
In desperation, we tested a very dark puddle that had recently accumulated right outside of a cow stall. EUREKA!!!! We finally found a scant trace of E coli.

Now mind you, all of this took some small time in the lab before results came back, but they visited several times and took several dozen samples from different locations, two or more, at different times, from each location.
I was greatly relieved when the E coli was finally identified. I was coming to think that I was some sort of an oddity, eyeball deep in rotting corpses and no E coli.

I guess it's safe to say that I don't worry about pathogens, ever.
There are far greater sources of nuisance to the working man.

Back to Cabin Fever's informative contribution.....

Shortly after the city of Canton welcomed me with open arms, and not really expecting to change any long standing traditions in the municipal sewage waste world, I mentioned to the men I was working with the fact that they had enough carbon coming into the yard waste disposal area to easily soak up and cover the two weekly tandem truck loads of raw sewage solids that they pay nearly 500 bucks each to dispose of some 50 miles away......
They, of course, only raised an eyebrow.
The man in charge did mention that it wasn't so long ago that they mixed the stuff with a form of lime and were "allowed" to spread the resultant blend on local farmer's fields.
People slowly lost interest and they just started hauling it to the Peoria county landfill.
Now I wonder if the current budget would cover the cost and maintenance of a tub grinder to reduce all that brush that gets burned every week to mulch....so that said mulch and grass clippings and fall leaves could all be mixed with two tandem loads of sewage solids each week into a most gorgeous blend of black richness.
Wow. Makes my mouth water and my hands shake.

Wasted resources really hurt my feelings.

**Cabin Fever** · #**556** 07/29/10, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorichristie

Cabin Fever and/or Forerunner- Love to get your takes!

Wouldn't the addition of thin layers of manure, layered with straw, rotting veggies, soil on occasion, grass, Comfrey, and being completely enveloped in all the aforementioned...wouldn't that achieve a hot enough pile? This is a slow pile, constantly being added to. Would there be a concern about pathogens? Anything else I should do or have done?....

In your scenario, the pathogens would come from livestock manure. Generally people are not too concern about this pathogen source. As you know, many gardeners add uncomposted manure directly to their vegetable gardens without a problem. Don';t get me wrong, there is a slight chance of humans getting sick from pathogens in livestock manure...but the risk is very low.

With that said, what is considered a complete pathogen kill in compost is when every particle of feedstock (manure in this case) is exposed to a temperature of 55ºC for three days.

If you are super concerned about pathogens from your manure, I'd recommend two things: (1) the purchase of a long-stemmed compost thermometer and monitoring temperatures in your pile paying particular attention to the temps near the outside edges and (2) composting in batches so you're not "reinfecting" the pile each time you add fresh manure.

ChristieAcres · #**557** 07/29/10, 12:10 PM

Forerunner and Cabin Fever, thank you both for all the helpful information!

I went out yesterday to remove all the spent potato plants, intending to dig up about 10#s of them. The All Blues, which look purple...wonder at that name, were the 1st and in a bed with the least compost (I am growing Herbs in this bed and will be removing all the potatoes by this Fall). These potatoes were small to medium sized. I then began to dig some CO Rose potatoes, which we both really enjoy the taste of. They were in the first upper bed which had more compost added in the Spring (growing Pole Beans & Bush Beans in it, too). These first CO Rose potatoes were a nice medium size. I then dug up some of the same type in the front of this same bed (where I had forgotten to remove a very rich compost/manure compost mix pile). This had been placed there when I was spreading it over the Asparagus beds. When I dug under this, I found very large potatoes. I stopped digging potatoes when I was up to 5 of these babies. Here is a picture of Swiss Chard, Zucchini, and Beets grown in beds rather well amended with compost (notice the avg sized potato next to the large one---same age, watering, light---only difference was the extra compost):

Extreme Composting - Homesteading Questions

Extreme Composting - Homesteading Questions

The topic of how much compost came up and I am wondering about the yearly application, already am familiar with cover cropping using green manures, and rotation. I use manure teas, green manure teas, and don't add purchased fertilizers. I believe the concern was Phosphorus buildup from compost. If this is the case, how much would cause that and over what period of time?

ca2devri · #**558** 07/30/10, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

sewage solids

Isn't one of the issues with sewage solids all the other (non-organic) stuff that comes along with it? Many older cities and homes have lead sewer pipes that leach into the sewage, not to mention the stuff people pour down their drains. Which is all too bad that it turns all that organic material into a toxic substance that needs to be dealt with in a landfill.

I'm not sure I would go so far as to put humanure on crops grown for direct consumption though, even if the above was not an issue. I know it's technically doable (the Chinese have done it for millenniums), but I would want 1 more degree of separation from it myself. For example, growing a cover crop or animal forage with the manure first.

Chris

Forerunner · #**559** 07/30/10, 10:06 AM

I certainly understand the prejudice, Chris. I was there, myself, long ago.
The Chinese do practice direct application, to the degree that the smell of those fields is commonly brought back in the stories of those who have traveled there.
The one glaring shortcoming in the Chinese approach is the failure to compost the material before applying it to the fields.
You mention a desire to implement just one more step between manure and human consumption..... that step is composting. (Funny that no one has made a thread

)

Lead pipe residue would be minimal for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that, in the case of old cast iron sewer pipe, the lead is used primarily as an adhesive in the joints and does not generally come into contact with the waste material.
The second reason is the stabilizing/reducing effect that composting has on heavy metals. As for old, lead water pipe, if there is a problem, it may well lie more in the buildup of that metal in the bodies of those that consume the water that flows through it. To date, I've yet to compost a bona-fide city slicker....
Now if anyone reading this thread has ready access to a quantity of dead city slickers,
and intends to use them in their composting operation, lead might be a concern.
Given the lethargic state of society, I suppose there is a real likelihood that most of them suffer from an alarming buildup of lead in their a***s
Even so, the wide variety of microbes that will be assisting in your effort have an awful lot to say about the quality of their collective finished product. I trust them to remediate the heavy metal issues.

Having witnessed Canton's sewage treatment facility firsthand, I took detailed notice of the various processes that the material went through before being sent to the landfill.
Funny that one of those processes was the mechanical removal of plastics and other foreign debris. If I were to have the opportunity to compost municipal sewage, it would be that plastic, etc. that would aggravate me the most.
If there was not adequate carbon and other benign organic materials to mix with that sewage, I'd be a little concerned about using it/making compost from it. But in Canton's situation, and I suspect this would be the norm across the country (funny how some of these things just work out so) there is enough yard waste generated to facilitate a blend of well over 20/1, yard waste/sewage. Imagine how much more benign material would be available if cities could be convinced of the value of recycling all paper, cardboard, restaurant waste, etc. on down the line.
Over time, given such a strongly encouraged and widely popularized approach to recycling and soil refurbishment, most folks would start paying much closer attention to what they throw away and how they dispose of certain legitimate waste products.
Landfills were established only to make those mysterious friends of high level politicians rich. There has always been a better way to dispose of (recycle) waste, and there has always been a place for not consuming so much waste-generating material in the first place. Landfills have served, as most other popular and near forced conveniences over the last 100 years, to remove people just that much further from some sustainable semblance of reality.

I'd like to see all combustible noncompostables incinerated at very high heat for the purpose of generating local, steam produced electricity.
I'd like to see all compostables turned over to the private sector where they would be duly and immediately composted and used very locally to produce food.
Too bad that such a drastic measure would result in denying big government the opportunity to instigate food shortages on command......
Obviously the waste metals issue takes care of itself, for the most part.
I'd like to see all hazardous wastes composted--even the EPA is coming to admit that they've known all along the extreme value of composting in reducing the toxicity of most hazardous wastes-- though I don't know what best use might be made of them after going through that process.
Anyhow..... I'm going out to recycle stuff.
See you all later.

MullersLaneFarm · #**560** 07/30/10, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

I was coming to think that I was some sort of an oddity,

Forerunner might be an oddity