Extreme Composting

Trisha in WA · #**521** 07/25/10, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

My poor thread.

Been thinking that for a while now...and it had been going along so nice.

Lloyd J. · #**522** 07/25/10, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

My poor thread.

Being a new dude to the forum, I am not cognisant of the history some people may or may not have but I still like this thread!

Seeing others not only ponder the acquisition of organics for the purpose of composting, but go out and do it, gives me inspiration. Different methods and sources all gives me more things to think about.

Seriously, you guys rock!

Lloyd

ChristieAcres · #**523** 07/25/10, 06:45 PM

Announcing bunny/chicken compost experiment WORKED! I shut the chickens out of the orchard and am out to shovel the garden gold. There are areas of the garden that could use some, but some may go on the mixed dirt pile, to further enrich it with some on top of the garden compost pile. This one is being overtaken by some very happy Delicata Squash growing nearby...since the compost pile is slightly uphill, any rain brings extra nutrients down to the roots.

Some friends were over and the wife remarked, "After seeing that garden, I think you ought to tell your rabbits to slow down..."

Now, if I could figure out how to get some of those heat lovers to produce faster... Never know in my zone what kind of gardening results we will get. This was a great year for cool weather veggies, terrible for orchards, and now shaping up for the heat lovers.

Homesteader at Heart · #**524** 07/26/10, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

My poor thread.

Yeah, where is a moderator when you need one?

**highlands** · #**525** 07/26/10, 10:47 AM

Speaking of extreme, I just finished composting one of our largest boars. It took two months and all that are left are a few bones. (no pieces of skin - sorry Tom Lehrer.) I had placed him on a thick layer (1'?) of hay and then covered him with about 1' to 2' of hay. There he lay. He was about 1,200 to 1,600 pounds - the tractor argues for him being on the upper end of that scale compared with picking up the very heavy large round bales of hay. He was a heft. I was surprised at how quickly he went since I hadn't been able to move him into our usual larger compost piles and had to do him alone out in the field.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa

wyld thang · #**526** 07/26/10, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homesteader at Heart

Yeah, where is a moderator when you need one?

the little yellow triangle at the upper right hand corner of the post--click on it to report a post you think is not up to your snuff

just do it

rugerman1 · #**527** 07/26/10, 10:37 PM

We're trying to learn about composting and you're being flippant? I think it's time for you to fly!

wyld thang · #**528** 07/26/10, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rugerman1

We're trying to learn about composting and you're being flippant? I think it's time for you to fly!

he/she asked "where is a moderator" I told them how to find one and make a complaint. being helpful.

wyld thang · #**529** 07/26/10, 11:12 PM

highlands, did any animals get into it? do you have vultures there? just curious, cuz vultures are supposed to have a super keen sense of smell--I wonder if they would get into some hay like that? (we have cultures here, if the animal is not by the side of the road where they get chased off by cars, it takes the 3-4 days to strip the bones)

(sigh, not that I'm trying to disagree that vultures/scavengers are "better" than composting something dead--although that's how it happens in the wild--I am just curious if something will dig into the hay? like if people have vultures or coyotes etc around)

HIghlands, did you get to butcher stuff off the pig first, or was it not usable? if so sorry.

mudburn · #**530** 07/27/10, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlands

Speaking of extreme, I just finished composting one of our largest boars.

It's great that you could turn your loss into a usable resource. Personally, I would have used more carbon material than what you describe.

I've got 4 large cows in my compost pile now. Last week when I picked up two of them from the stock yard, a member of one of the county boards (I don't remember which one) drove up and asked if I wanted more. The county has been reimbursing farmers the $65 pickup fee they were paying to the rendering plant when they came to get their dead cows. Now that there is no one to take the dead cows, they're trying to figure out what to do. I don't want to be collecting cows for composting every day of the week, nor am I set up for doing so, anyway.

I've put between 2 and 3 feet of sawdust under the cows and try to cover them with as much. That results in a lot of sawdust around them, not just over and under. I won't be digging into the pile for a while, but I am keeping an eye on it watching for coyotes or other varmints digging into it. I also keep performing the smell test -- I don't want it stinking.

I do need to bring in a lot more sawdust just to keep up with the rate at which the stock yard is supplying me with these dead critters.

mudburn

Homesteader at Heart · #**531** 07/27/10, 07:00 AM

Forerunner, this is a great thread, and the only one that I keep coming back to again and again.

This may have been covered earlier, but I have a question for you and Mudburn. Since you are composting dead animals which may have died from who knows what disease, is there any chance of disease organisms surviving the process and being passed on to other animals? Or do you feel that a hot pile destroys all the bad bugs?

Thanks again for keeping this going.

Forerunner · #**532** 07/27/10, 08:10 AM

Joe Jenkins is my second favorite hero, next to Ehrenfried Pfeiffer..... for it was Joe's book,
"The Humanure Handbook", that laid out an awful lot of the science behind my madness.
Apparently, anything pathogenic to a mammal will cook off at a mere (sustained) 110 degrees. This makes sense given the fact that our bodies are meant to sustain 105 or so when fighting off pathogens.
Jenkins gives tables and charts with required times and temps; the hotter the temp, the less time required to kill the pathogen. So, use your imagination and envision a happily munching pathogen, basking in the immense satisfaction of having just killed yet another animal a million times it's size.... laying there in the pile.... pleasantly warm........ when the sound of marching boots slowly begins to register.
A rare pathogen it would be who would immediately recognize that cadence.
Apparently Providence made certain that a non-existent pathogen it is who could survive it. It is the sound of the thermophilic military moving in to commit genocide and occupy until all pathogens are reduced to benign soil improvements.

I like to imagine the slow building crescendo of little pathogen screams as the bloodbath ensues.

Mudburn's above-described liberal use of carbon is the key to composting dead livestock. There is an developing and unbalanced "market" in the dead animal industry.
Sale barns and farmers are being required to pay between one hundred and three hundred per animal for disposal. I doubt I will ever charge for the service that I am providing, but there are many around the country who could and should, for it would make a great business while building very high quality soil.
Mudburn's mention of an interested county official reminds me of some of my experience here, of late. We oddballs are now being sought out for our assistance rather than being harassed by local government, at times. That is a good thing for everyone.
I've yet to see any evidence of predators or scavengers digging into an animal that is buried over two feet deep in carbon.
As for scavengers being preferred simply for a preference toward the "natural" order of things, I don't know what Eden was like before the fall, but we have since been given the admonition to till the soil and wisely steward the land. We have also been given a tremendous array of resources and technologies to facilitate that end to perfection.
The natural order will suffice in the absence of man, but man was given to steward the earth, and that doesn't come over a cup of coffee steaming in the hands of an arm chair quarterback.

Aintlifegrand · #**533** 07/27/10, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

The natural order will suffice in the absence of man, but man was given to steward the earth, and that doesn't come over a cup of coffee steaming in the hands of an arm chair quarterback.

It is such as this that makes this thread so interesting.

I asked for and received Jenkin's Humanure book for my birthday last week..(LOL..hubby stays confused never knowing what is next)..I look forward to reading it.

Homesteader at Heart · #**534** 07/27/10, 01:07 PM

Thanks, Forerunner, for a great explanation.

wyld thang · #**535** 07/27/10, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

The natural order will suffice in the absence of man, but man was given to steward the earth, and that doesn't come over a cup of coffee steaming in the hands of an arm chair quarterback.

snort at the natural order at your own expense, but stewardship doesn't mean making it over in your own image

and I think you need to be a little more detailed about how long it takes piles to kill bacteria and viruses...and prions if you want to go there(mad cow anyone?) e coli and salmonella can be killed by cooking to a certain temp("fast" heat), but slow heat takes longer, and I would think the longer demands a little more precaution in handling the piles(or situating them, or keeping things away) with pathogens in the process of dying within(and looking for salvation). Do you protect such piles from runoff and contaminating water supplies? (ponds, streams, springs, wells).

highlands, where did you situate this pig pile? was it remote? did you allow your kids to play on it?

I have a dog I know would dig through hell itself to get to some good dead goo so she can roll in it.

silverbackMP · #**536** 07/27/10, 01:52 PM

I just bought a book that I think most in this thread would be interested in--"Teaming with Microbes; the Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web (revised edition)" by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis.

Goes into a great amount of detail about bacteria, fungus, nematodes, worms, compost, etc. I really like the detailed explanations of bacteria vs fungus and how to prep your compost to the benifit of one or the other; this will be very useful when I prep my first 36 acre chestnut orchard.

Got my copy at Barnes and Nobles.

sgl42 · #**537** 07/27/10, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

So, use your imagination and envision a happily munching pathogen, basking in the immense satisfaction of having just killed yet another animal a million times it's size.... laying there in the pile.... pleasantly warm........ when the sound of marching boots slowly begins to register.
A rare pathogen it would be who would immediately recognize that cadence.
Apparently Providence made certain that a non-existent pathogen it is who could survive it. It is the sound of the thermophilic military moving in to commit genocide and occupy until all pathogens are reduced to benign soil improvements.

I like to imagine the slow building crescendo of little pathogen screams as the bloodbath ensues.

i love the above anthropomorphic description. very evocative! you really should (in your copious free time!) make some sort of childrens book or something to explain lifecycles and recycling and composting in a way that kids would love. it would be a riot!

--sgl

Forerunner · #**538** 07/27/10, 03:09 PM

Whereas our resident problem child will not moderate it's own attitude, and, whereas the HT administration is gracious enough to allow such subtle malicious undertone to persist, (undoubtedly in the spirit of fairness and forgiveness, two worthy concepts to which I do subscribe) I will hereby cease acknowledging the presence of said problem child either in answer or response, and I strongly encourage all other posters in this thread to do the same.
Said problem child has instigated conflict in other threads, with the unwitting assistance of otherwise good people, (though perhaps lacking a bit of patience and necessary temperance) to the end that good and worthy threads have been closed.
I have no doubt that said problem child intends the same end here, all paper thin and soothing expressions on it's part to the contrary aside.....
Ignore the problem, folks, and though it may take time, it will have no choice but to go away. If we refuse to engage it, the mods will be free to eliminate the problem rather than close the thread.

Forerunner · #**539** 07/27/10, 03:23 PM

Sgl..... I have considered such an endeavor as you describe...and can't help but agree; it would be a riot.

Silverback... Sounds like good winter reading. I am ever further amazed at the detail of the interworkings of this good earth, and how the entire composting process fits so well into its healing and maintenance. I have to admit, though.... anymore this whole endeavor is so routine, I just build 'em right and let 'em cook.
I'm getting into the old black stuff at the yard waste disposal site in Canton.
It's been there for years, has a few sticks and a little trash mixed in.... and is black as coal. They just keep digging it out from where they shoved it all over the hill and piling it next to the new stuff that comes in every day..... and they just keep smiling and shaking their heads as I gladly dispose of it to everyone's delight.
I've offered to load up several mildly interested individuals who enquire as to my madness, but they all come up with some goofy excuse or another as to why they don't make or use compost. Crazy.

Aintlifegrand...... your appreciation inspires me. Keep putting the rubber to the road down there.

wyld thang · #**540** 07/27/10, 03:59 PM

Well, hey, if the safe handling of pathogens is of no concern, then handle away. I'm not thinking particularly of the INSIDE of a compost pile, but the edges, where temps are much less consistant. Out west here springs and ground water get CONTAMINATED by cow dung(e coli for instance), as well as in other areas with porous soils. If a caution about handling pathogens in areas different from Forerunner's conditions is silly and irrelevant and an issue to be ignored, then that is Forerunner's perogative to do so.

And I really don't care if you ignore me, Forerunner. The moderators are free to delete my posts about tools used to handle compost, composting done on a county wide scale and run by county government, a caution that dead things and poop should not be handled willy nilly, nor the epiphany that despite all one's efforts to steward the land and make it perform like a trick pony, weather will bite you in the butt--and maybe an ear to nature will help you tweak your plans to get some food to grow.