Why did hot water radiator heating go out of favor?

ozark mike · #21 01/14/10, 12:33 AM

my grandpa was a steamfitter and boiler operator, the way he explained it to me is they were coal fed and you know what direction coal went, natural gas and propane replaced it because of convenience reasons, but some unit were converted to gas, ours was oil fed...and second reason for the demise was that they had an expansion tank with a pressure valve that had to be watched just as you do a pressure cooker and a certain water level had to be maintained...they could be dangerous, the tanks not the radiators themselves...and they did get hot enough to do some damage to the human body...

haypoint · #22 01/14/10, 12:36 AM

The hot water, wood fired furnace in the farmhouse is safe and efficient.
The outside of the furnace is neverr too hot to lay a hand on, unlike non-boiler systems. There are two large, 2" pipes that come out the top and go to two "runs" horizonal lines. All the radiators are piped to them. The cold water return comes into the base of the furnace. Each radiator is sized to heat the room, those in the large living foom are big, those in the upper bedrooms are quite small. This whole thing runs without and pumps or electricity.

It even had a non-electric damper. On the top of the furnace there is a "teeter-totter" looking thing. A fine chain hooked to one end goes to the air intake, at the bottom of the furnace. At the other end, a rod goes to damper (a round plate in the furnace opening where the stove pipe attaches). It is balanced. Inside the center is a thing like a thermostat in a brooder. When the water in the furnace gets hot, it closes the air intake and closes the damper, too. Since hot water rises, the furnace doesn't get hot until the water in all the pipes is hot, then the non-electric temperature control dampers down the fire.

If I've been gone for awhile, let the fire go out, it takes time to get all that water and cast iron hot. The heat is so even, I had to learn that if I wait until I notice the house cooling off, it might be too late and the fire would be burned out.

There was a pipe that went up to the bathroom, on the second floor to a 10 gal. tank. The top of the tank was vented by a small pipe into the attic. When the system was full, the water in the tank would be just about 2/3 full. Hot or cold, it didn't vary much. But it kept air out of the system and prevented any internal pressure. There is a guage on the furnace that gives temp and pressure. When the water is filled all the way to the tank, it shows on the guage. Water weight, I think, never any pressure.

I'd guess this system would be too costly today.

Anyone buying used radiators, beware. There are plenty for sale that were left undrained, froze and have cracks where you might not see them.

ChristieAcres · #23 01/14/10, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Haypoint-
Anyone buying used radiators, beware. There are plenty for sale that were left undrained, froze and have cracks where you might not see them.

Do you have any recommendations for evaluating a radiator? If so, this would be a good thread to post them on

DH & I were discussing also installing an exterior wood boiler system. We figure in the warmer months, we won't want to run our wood stove. Many years ago, DH built a thermal siphon system. Those are great if you have a multi-story house. My grandfather had a 2-story farmhouse with a basement and a wood fired furnace. Loved visiting and staying with them over the whole summer break most years. They were on 90 acres, and had a wonderful ranch.

In our case, on one level. So, can't get away from using a pump & couldn't go with a thermal siphon. The draw is about 1/3 of a light bulb, with a backup propane generator with switch-relay, we are in good shape.

ozark mike · #24 01/14/10, 01:00 AM

haypoint, I also rented a place that had the pressure system with an in line pump at the furnace...when the temp got to where the furnace would kick on, via wall thermostat, it would ignite the burner and the pump would start... the one you explained is not under pressure but is an air lock and I would think a better unit, safer anyway

MELOC · #25 01/14/10, 01:38 AM

you can have radiators pressure tested. systems that use them really don't run at a high pressure, but it is good way to check for leaks if the unit has been sitting for a while or is in unknown condition. it is fairly simple (i said simple and not easy, lol) to disassemble and rebuild one. you can also increase or decrease the size as they are made of segments that are bolted together. i have lived in a house with radiators for 40 years and i have never seen one leak.

Shagbarkmtcatle · #26 01/14/10, 05:55 AM

Stef,

We remove them (plumbing company) because, our society has changed and the most reasons they gave us is they don't like the way they look. Also, they take up room. The legits of it are, they are a very efficient way to heat because of the cast iron construction, once they have been heated, they conduct heat for a long time without using additional energy.

Radiators can be heated by any type of fuel system, the boiler doesn't have anything to do with the radiator, it's simply the source of energy for the heat.

If you happend to be blessed with radiators but would still like AC, don't remove the radiators to get AC, just add the AC system. YOu just have two
But it is true in new applications that it's more cost efficient (for installation)to go with a dual heating/AC system now days.

stanb999 · #27 01/14/10, 07:55 AM

All I know is I had a BIG one at our old house... It was 48" tall, 60" wide, and a foot deep. It heated the whole basement without getting more than warm to the touch. Just wonderful. See the thing with radiators is larger is cooler. So go big.

Jenn · #28 01/14/10, 08:21 AM

Am I that much older or that much more Northern than all of you? I had radiators everywhere until living in the South. Always natural gas run boilers but bet some of the old houses in Pittsburgh and Mass. they'd been converted from coal. We did not have AC any of those homes.

I always regretted that: the best place to put it is under a window (to preserve wall space for furniture) which has to pour more heat out window than it would further away. I haven't felt the ones we had in England- pretty futuristic no boiler in the basement, it was a 2x3' unit on the wall in the laundry nook- got so hot they were dangerous, but in Pgh they sure did.

The knocking is air in the lines. We would take the vent off the end of the radiator to let the air escape but then put it back on real quick before the steam burns ya. In my freezing third floor bedroom (ice INSIDE the windows some mornings) I'd take the vent off to get the steam up quicker. If I fell back asleep (guess Dad got up and turned up the thermostat that time of morning) I'd have a steam bath and a problem getting the vent screwed back down.

I had always thought radiant floor heating solved this problem and loved the old rural resort hotel where I stayed once which had that. Dunno how well it can cool- need to ask brother whose home has geothermal radiant floor stuff, dunno if they also have air ducts. In MD and his housemates are builders who built it in the last 15 years IIRC so I'm sure they cool the home.

geo in mi · #29 01/14/10, 09:02 AM

I got st---eam heat, I got steam heat, and I don't need love to keep away the cold........

When the power goes out and the temperature goes down, you gotta dump the water or you got a frozen pipe situation on your hands. High maintenance, high installation costs, leaky, not automatic like forced air.

But take your bread and the government butter, lay it on the old radiator, and you could make a pretty good toasted sandwich between noon hour and last recess. If you didn't mind the smell of hot sox and boots........

fantasymaker · #30 01/14/10, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorichristie

We were given an old dozer that is beyond repair. DH is cutting it up for scrap. In one week, hard work & 3 trips... that scrap is worth net after expenses $2,000! .

CRAIGS LIST and EBAY the parts! Most dozers are worth WAY more than that in parts. Heck maybe even just ONE part could be worth more than that.

clsmith15 · #31 01/14/10, 09:22 AM

Most places I lived in back in NY had radiator heat and it was the best heat! Here in GA it's all forced air and the house I'm in now is electric heat pump which is very inefficient below 30 degrees. I'm thankful I have a wood stove. Although it does not heat the whole house it does heat up the living room/kitchen so there is a room to warm up in.

MELOC · #32 01/14/10, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

I always regretted that: the best place to put it is under a window (to preserve wall space for furniture) which has to pour more heat out window than it would further away.

i think the idea is to warm any cool draft that comes from the window. even if the window is airtight, the cold window itself cools the air it touches and the cold air drops straight to the floor. all of the radiators in my home are placed under windows and there is one beside the stairs that lead to the second floor that helps to warm the cool air that falls from the second floor.

**highlands** · #33 01/14/10, 12:18 PM

Loud.
Leaks.
Maintenance.

I had a house with this.
I would rather not.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
Save 30% off Pastured Pork with free processing: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop

stef · #34 01/14/10, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorichristie

Stef, I agree it is a real shame they went of use. But that doesn't mean they have to stay out of use! The coldest room in our home was our bedroom. DH was given a big old RADIATOR:banana02: He restored it, tested it, sandblasted it, and then painted it. No before shots

But, hey, took a picture of it before we put the desk back over it. WHAT DID YOU SAY?

That is right, we have this radiator in our bedroom and there is a desk over it.

Doesn't it get hot? Not possible to get hotter than our thermostat control allows it to. The water heater has a maximum temperature it reaches. Our wood stove heats our water and there are multiple pressure relief valves. When it is on, I can not only touch it, but I can certainly hold my hand against it for as long as I want. Excellent for warming hands

The old fashioned kinds weren't as heat controlled. Well I remember those, yikes! They WERE

We are now enjoying the warmth that radiates throughout our bedroom. I love it

There is a concern about the interiors of old radiators. The water should never circulate to being used for consumption unless they are rated safe for drinking water.

Here is our radiator that is NOT hot. It

s!!!

Why did hot water radiator heating go out of favor? - Homesteading Questions

I can't tell you how good that picture looks to me!

Thanks for posting.

(o:

stef

joseph97297 · #35 01/14/10, 12:18 PM

It hasn't gone out of favor....

here are my babies that I am working on:

Why did hot water radiator heating go out of favor? - Homesteading Questions

rivenoak · #36 01/14/10, 01:00 PM

Joseph's radiator picture has at least two of the kinds we had in the house I grew up in. It was built in the 1920s, in the suburbs of Detroit.

They got warm, but not hot enough to burn. I used to lay clothes on them in the winter so they'd be warm to put on in the a.m.

The house had no A/C, but we rarely would've needed it, anyhow.

I adored radiator heat!

haypoint · #37 01/14/10, 01:47 PM

Steam heat can bang and clank, but hot water is silent. Steam heat is under pressure and would leak about as often as your pressurized household hot water. Hot water heat has no pressure beyond the weight of the water and rarely leak.
Some systems have a pump, some don't. That's the only upkeep I can think of. Oh, you also have to be sure the system is full of water.

mdharris68 · #38 01/14/10, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stef

This is just out of curiosity.

The best, most even heat I've ever enjoyed was six years ago when I lived in an apartment building heated with those old iron hot water radiators.

The thermostat was in the basement and only the maintainance man had access to it. But, oh, it was so wonderfully, consistently warm in my place.

Did that type of heating go out of use for some mechanical reason? Or was it because the newer heating systems did a better job? (Although I couldn't vouch for that, after having luxuriated in the aformentioned heat.)

stef

Stef, they are so comfortable because they have a large surface area and they radiate heat very well while retaining the heat long after the fuel stops heating the water/steam. Steam heat is similar but with out the proper maintenance they are noisy and expensive to have. I would argue that hot water heat is possibly the most cost efficient way to heat a house. Although I don't have it, I am waiting to recycle some good used radiators after we remove them from some house that wants to ditch the hot water heat and replace it with forced air. Years ago when I started I removed a lot of them with a sledgehammer and back brace. If I only would have been planning......