Evicted!!!

I appreciate the reply by the person who is the debate coach, but simply saying that something is "irrelevant" does not mean it is. A court of law will consider all of the relevent facts, and make determinations based on the totality of circumstances. The Court of Appeal may or may not think it's relevant, but it doesn't matter anyway. It IS relevant that there was no one living in the trailer before we applied for the permit. It means that it's NOT a dwelling!

In any case, the development officer said that we could add an addition to our mobile, and we'll share the bathrooms/kitchen etc. Not the greatest solution, but it is -20 degrees outside so we need something BEFORE winter!

Can you imagine the county coming in and forcibly evicting these children into the snow? I know they have the right to, but I doubt they would do it.

__________________
Go Big or Go Home!!
1 Tim 3:2-3 "Preach the Word. Be ready in season and out. Convince, Rebuke, Exhort with all long-suffering and teaching."

They wouldn't evict the children into the snow, but they could get social services to remove children from parents custody. Then the parents would have even bigger problems to deal with.

Here's a link to Alberta Civil Liberties Research Center, maybe you can make enquiries and find some answers there: http://www.aclrc.com/

You never mentioned if you and your family are living on the property. If you aren't on the property then by you allowing a different family in trailer on the property you could be at risk of them claiming squatter's rights if they aren't paying rent. If you are living on the property and the regulations are for single family dwelling, by having another family living on the property in a separate dwelling sets the property up as a potential slum with you as a slum-lord. All the rules and regulations are set up for your protection, you need to find out exactly what they all are.

This is irrelevant - different province, different laws (and there is no such thing as public property in Canada - it either belongs to 'somebody' or it belongs to the crown) - and if you were to research further you'd see they're only allowed to set up camp for a maximum of 2 weeks, then they have to pull up stakes and move. This is strictly enforced in this province.

.

I live in an area that has a zoning ordinance.
In an effort to limit tar paper shacks, a dwelling must have 700 square feet on the first floor. They figured if it were that big, you'd have to get a loan and some standards would be met. But people are going to try to get around the rules. So what we see now is that people haul in travel trailers, nasty, old, eyesores and stay in those. When the zoning was written, no one thought about travel trailers. If your area already has had trouble with nasty run down campers, the local officials wouldn't want to bend for you and have other use that variance to support their eyesore.

Seems like every time they allow something "for just a little while", it never changes.
Lots of different things may be going on with your situation. Perhaps a "What can we do to make this work?" needs to be presented to the local officials.
Please keep us posted.

Well, it wouldn't be such a problem if it there weren't 7 foot snowdrifts, and -20 degree weather. Then, they shorten the time allowed to 14 days from 30!

It is not irrelevant that BC has allowed homeless people to camp in city parks. It's a precedent of valuing human life over all other considerations. An Alberta court can consider a decision made by a higher court in a similar situation, even if that court is in another province. I know this, because I have been working in law-enforcement for a long time.
Regardless of how wrong we may have been, it would be even worse for these people to take the only home they have away!

We're going to ask them to hold off for 1 month so we can get our stuff together.

__________________
Go Big or Go Home!!
1 Tim 3:2-3 "Preach the Word. Be ready in season and out. Convince, Rebuke, Exhort with all long-suffering and teaching."

I'm sorry, I had to post a response to this. I mean no disrespect to the original poster, I respect your right to think that I'm wrong. Here's me showing that I'm actually right

Quote: by Alice in TX/MO
Let me explain that I'm a debate coach, so I'm going to address this as a debate rebuttal, point by point. If you will read carefully, you will discover that you shoot down your own claims.

Your post:

The main issue seems to centre around the trailer being "designed for vacation use only, not for residence". (This is true.)

"The principle statute, which is called the Municipal Government Act defines a travel trailer as a manufactured home, which is the same as saying that it can be used as a residence
In reality, people are living in dumpy trailers all around the county (Irrelevant to your situation)

"Very relevant, as it demonstrates that the county IS allowing people to use these trailers as residences. That was the contested issue in this appeal."
(in campgrounds) (True), and this thing is a $50,000 fully equipped model. Everything onboard, generator, septic, you name it. (Irrelevant)
"Part of the objection to using the trailer was that it wasn't suitable for habitation in the winter. This is practically a park model, which is actually designed for residence."

We did everything properly (No you didn't, as evidenced by the rest of your sentence),
"Yes we did. Storing a travel trailer in preparation for using it as a residence is not illegal in any way. The contested issue is the claim that it was lived in before we asked for the permit, and it was NOT."
but the county is alleging that we violated the bylaw by having the trailers on site first. The funny thing is, we were never charged or convicted of an offense,(The gov didn't want to waste time with that process.) they simply punished us outside of the court system by denying the permit. (This is true and within the rights of your local government.)
"Definitely NOT the right of any gov't, including yours. Section 11(d) of the Canadian Charter of Rights guarantees presumption of innocence unless convicted of an offense by a court of law. Otherwise the county is acting as the prosecutor and judge, and issuing a penalty that is not prescribed by statute. Gov't have to follow a specific procedure to punish an offense, and this is not the proper procedure!"

At the time of the application, our friends had a home in the city, and were actually just storing the trailers on our land! Then, their lease ran out, but no decision had been given yet. So, we let them basically dry-camp.(This is where you made the big error. Did you ask for a variance, ask for the process to be accelerated, communicate with the powers that be?)

"We did all of the above. We wrote numerous letters, attended council meetings, asked for special permission...always being told "It shouldn't be a problem, just (write this letter, etc), and you should be fine."
There aren't any prohibitions about camping, and it's obviously not permanent, so... (Irrelevant. The government doesn't care.)
"It is relevant. If something is not illegal, then it's legal. Our bylaws are silent on this subject."

I'm looking into the law, and I notice that the BC Supreme Court has allowed homeless people the right to camp on public property, and set up a tent as well. (Irrelevant to your situation)

"Very relevant, it demonstrates that people's right to live is important to Canadian Courts, and is a consideration when considering the extent that bylaws can restrict where people sleep."

Surely there must be some inherent right to allow camping on private property for a short period of time?? (Inherent right? You have only the rights allowed by the local government.)

"There are many inherent rights available to land owners, the right to use a firearm, the right to graze livestock, the right to build a fence, the right to hunt. These are rights that are independent of local governments, and are found in the so called "common-law", which is basically an unwritten set of rules that governs all western lawmakers back to the Magna Carta. Other rights can be found in other provincial or federal statutes, for example, using a firearm on private land."

*End Quote and my replies *

Notwithstanding that we may be correct in our view of the law, we are choosing to basically stand down, and take a less adversarial path.
Really, this is an issue that could be decided in court, but should we take it there? No. I've already got several things that I can take to the county to support a future attempt at this, which we will be doing.

Thanks to everyone who replied, even those of you who were wrong (tongue in cheek).

See my blog at www.sunset-meadows.blogspot.com for more updates.

__________________
Go Big or Go Home!!
1 Tim 3:2-3 "Preach the Word. Be ready in season and out. Convince, Rebuke, Exhort with all long-suffering and teaching."

Since you already know it all, why are you posting asking for help?

(Hint: That was what debate coaches might call a "rhetorical question")

also some areas will only allow travel trailers for a very limited time..even in parks..some don't care..but most will limit them to 60 or 90 days

Y'all got Walmarts up there?
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/7-12-2005-73042.asp

Or better yet contact your local provincial parks - here in the states, you can campground host and volunteer at parks (state and national) for a few hours of volunteer time. In exchange-you get free parking, free electric, etc. You contact the parks directly asking if they need a host.......

We traveled around the county for 2 years doing this - worked well for us!

__________________
Be a fountain, not a drain!

^()^
http://tubbsfarmstead.com/

I appreciate your humor.

As to the issue, you are in for a long & hard life.

You are wrong. Period. Alice had a very good analysis of your issues. You are not making your points very well. That always makes a person 'wrong' even if what you are trying to say is in some grey area....

I just had to chuckle at the portable septic system the trailer had - you kinda lose the argument right there.

Arguing such things as this require a great deal of accuracy, all ducks in a row, and so forth. Yuo don't have any of that.

You & your friends started down the path assuming you could do what you wanted, and planned & plotted to do so before you had any approval to do so.

The govt has called your bluff on that.

I'm not saying the govt is right or wrong to have such regulations.

They appear to have then tho, and you knew about them.

You & your friends did what you wanted to do, while trying to get a varrience.

Your timing was all messed up.

Either you try to do what you want & ignore the laws. See if you can get away with it.

Or you follow the laws to the letter, and don't do things on your own while you are trying to get a varrience. This is the part that is the instant death to your plan.

Doing both - asking for an exception to the rules everyone else has to follow, but at the same time going around those laws before getting your exception - that was dumb.

Now you have to do something different.

Good luck in life. It's a long road when you don't understand the game.

--->Paul

I probably shouldn't poke my nose into this, but there are some questions that beg to be asked (and the curiosity is killing me):

No where is it stated that this family living on adamtheha's property is indigent. If I read correctly, the had a home in the city (and presumably a source of income) and when the lease ran out they chose to move to the land and live in the trailer until a new house is built. My understanding is they bought the trailer in advance, and had this plan all worked out.

Sounds to me like they are tenants, and were just staying in the trailer waiting for a new house to be built. Obviously that plan didn't work out, so why can't they rent an apartment back in town? Or move the trailer to another location? Have they been paying to live on that land or was it a barter situation, perhaps that they would help you build the new house in exchange for a period of free rent?

I guess I'm confused as to the real issue here, and the relationships between the parties. Are the permits that were denied building-permits for the house that was supposed to be built in spring, or a permit to legally have a trailer used as a residence? If the latter, why would these people expect that they could take up residence before the permits were granted? Or did adamtheha (the landowner/landlord) represent that he had it all taken are of?

I live in an area of the country that has a lot of trailer parks. Nevertheless, in most counties here you cannot just decide to pull a trailer onto your land and have folks living there, whether it is a travel trailer or a double-wide. It matters not that there are other folks living in trailers, and some of the trailers are old and ratty. We learned about the the zoning ordinances before purchasing property in this county.

It's very cold today. I hope your friends are doing okay in this weather.

I lived in southern Alberta until two years ago. You couldn't pay me enough to live in a travel trailer through an Alberta winter. I understand EXACTLY why there are bylaws against this practice: because it's insane. Travel trailers are NOT MADE to be lived in through a Canadian winter.

You cannot do an end run around the rules in Alberta. You might get lucky and not get caught, thereby getting away with it, but if you do get noticed, the authorities WILL ENFORCE THE RULES. Trust me on this. I speak from experience. They *WILL* evict your tenant, they *WILL* remove the children from the home and remove them from the parent's guardianship, and you *WILL* find yourself in a very deep pot of hot water. The fact of the matter is you tried to do something that isn't allowed to be done, and a further fact is, they will stop you.

Temperatures in southern Alberta can, and do, reach -40, and with wind chill I've seen it reach -50. Living in something that is built for summer usage in conditions like this is the equivalent of suicide.

__________________
Ignorance is the true enemy.

I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my children.

www.newcenturyhomestead.com

The solution is easy.

Make a photocopy of the notice or letter that "Demands" that they leave. Give a copy to the occupants of the motor home and tell them that they must leave. Say have a nice day.

Now it is not a "WE" problem it is a "THEY" problem.

Take a nap.

I only have a few questions and am not so sure I can be of any help to you. But after reading the blog, I am just a little confused and don't like to remain in that state of mind for too long, so I thought I would ask.

Did you get a permit for the first trailer you put on the property?
Did you have to get a permit for the building (shed) you put up?
How close are your neighbors? Have you had problems with them? You mentioned they were calling and reporting you for the Llamas and such. If you are at odds with the neighbors AND the code folks.... you will have problems every step you take.

Also, did they come and tell you they had a problem with you putting a trailer out there with a permit (the first one) before you had the second one put on the property?

I was just curious about those issues. Luckily I have not had to deal with codes and permits and such in the area that I live in. I have however, dealt with doing things the wrong way and having everything fall apart and bring much trauma into my life.

At this point all I can think of is get the second trailer off the property, share the first trailer with your friends (you'd be surprised how many folks can live in a small space for awhile), aologize your backside off to the code folks, go have a heart to heart and tell them you are sorry you did not follow strict codes before you made the move, that your heart over ruled your head or something. Hope for the best.

As a individual who has made some MAJOR mistakes in not making sure things were in order before moving ahead on projects, I can tell you....it will bring you much heartache and grief. What is done is done however and all you can do at this point in try to rectify the situation and MAKE SURE every law, code, permit, etc. is followed and in writing before you make an other move on anything. It can save you a world of grief in the end...and a lot of money as well. Trust me on this one....I know from experience.

People of independent spirit had better stay aware of the growing government desire to protect all us citizens from our "poor" choices. Add to that the HMOs and nosey folks , rude and idle enough to search for some of your business to butt into. When freedom about my home and hearth are on the line, I'll spend extra money and really work hard at my due dilligence to avoid any unwanted attention or future developments.

My impression is that you were generally aware that all these goverment busy bodys could come down on you and and make certain you would make your home and live your life the way they know you should. You appear to have made a choice that won't be allowed. Shucks, sell out that cold land and come to Texas where freedom still exists if you look for it. I'll use all my experience to help you get located...Glen

__________________
The more a man travels, acquires wisdom and learns about life, the more likely he is to marry a Country Girl.

"As a individual who has made some MAJOR mistakes in not making sure things were in order before moving ahead on projects, I can tell you....it will bring you much heartache and grief. What is done is done however and all you can do at this point in try to rectify the situation and MAKE SURE every law, code, permit, etc. is followed and in writing before you make an other move on anything. It can save you a world of grief in the end...and a lot of money as well. Trust me on this one....I know from experience."

You have learned well, grasshopper.

Congratulations on your diploma from the school of hard knocks, and entry into the teaching phase of life. We all get to learn even more in that phase. The bruises make for stronger skin.

Threads like this remind of one more good reason I love living out here with these hillbillies in Kentucky.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

You are adorable. Stronger skin indeed, but I had to back up and make sure it just left strong skin and not some tough leather that the warmest of hearts could not penetrate. You go through phases when you mess up real bad. I think I am finally at a point where I can be open about my mistake and admit it was my own fault, learn from it, and hope that others don't ever do something like that.

So, like whats up with this situation?

Besides telling adamtheha that this was a screw up from the start, I guess I didn't see too many possible solutions presented.

Codes, rules etc can be a relative thing,(personal experience) seems there are different rules for "locals" than "outsiders". Hard to get by sometimes..........seems the outsiders sorta stepped in it.
But it would interest most of us to see what the solution might be????????