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12/01/09, 05:29 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danaus29
salmonslayer, I sure hope you never have to deal with someone who brings a leashed dog onto your property and then uses that dog to attack and kill or maim your animals. According to Ohio law any dog owner who commits such a crime (and using a dog to terrorize any domestic animal is a crime) is subject to charges of animal cruelty, dog fighting, and failure to control their dog. The op had a legal right to shoot the dog which was in her yard menacing her animals. That was her right. Since I also live in Ohio I also have the right to shoot any menacing animal which is on my property. I could also have the dog's owner put in jail. The dog owner has no right or respect for others (a fact for which he will pay dearly when he stands in judgement) when he uses his dog to menace livestock.
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Just to be clear, you don't have the right to endanger another person, even if you would otherwise be justified in shooting the dog. If the dog in question was in fact leashed, it was almost certainly close enough to its owner that shooting it would endanger the owner.
Besides, salmonslayer's posts were pretty clearly about what one SHOULD do, not what one MAY do.
Last edited by TurnerHill; 12/01/09 at 05:31 PM.
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12/01/09, 05:51 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerHill
Just to be clear, you don't have the right to endanger another person, even if you would otherwise be justified in shooting the dog. If the dog in question was in fact leashed, it was almost certainly close enough to its owner that shooting it would endanger the owner.
Besides, salmonslayer's posts were pretty clearly about what one SHOULD do, not what one MAY do.
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Just to be clear, it all depends on circumstances. A person may in fact shoot a leashed dog without endangering the owner. Depends on the length of the leash and the angle of the shot.
Your view are clearly colored by your opinions and we all know what opinions are like. It may be, given the nature of the circumstances that a person may have the right to endanger another person. Don't forget that Ohio has a Castle law.... not as strong as the one in Texas but a Castle law nonetheless.
As far as Salmonslayer opining what one SHOULD do.... yet another opinion. My opinion is that one should NOT go on other peoples property without permission. One SHOULD NOT harass other peoples livestock whether from on that persons property or off that persons property. Just because you are standing on the road doesn't mean you can sling rocks and someones animals with impunity.
Have you ever considered that if there were likely to be immediate and dire consequences to a persons abusive actions that people might be just a little more considerate?
Just a few opinions that will likely slide right past a few people.
Mike
Last edited by Mike in Ohio; 12/01/09 at 06:32 PM.
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12/01/09, 06:08 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 19,350
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TurnerHill, obviously you've never heard of a retractable leash. Most of those are over 20 feet long. More than enough space to shoot the dog without endangering the owner. If the dog was far enough that the op couldn't see it when she confronted the owner than the dog was far enough away to be shot without endangering the owner. The op asked about her rights.
Again I will post her rights:
Ohio Revised Codes, § 955.28 Dog may be killed for certain acts; owner liable for damages.
(A) Subject to divisions (A)(2) and (3) of section 955.261 [955.26.1] of the Revised Code, a dog that is chasing or approaching in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack, that attempts to bite or otherwise endanger, or that kills or injures a person or a dog that chases, injures, or kills livestock, poultry, other domestic animal, or other animal, that is the property of another person, except a cat or another dog, can be killed at the time of that chasing, approaching, attempt, killing, or injury. If, in attempting to kill such a dog, a person wounds it, he is not liable to prosecution under the penal laws which punish cruelty to animals.
(B) The owner, keeper, or harborer of a dog is liable in damages for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that is caused by the dog, unless the injury, death, or loss was caused to the person or property of an individual who, at the time, was committing or attempting to commit a trespass or other criminal offense on the property of the owner, keeper, or harborer, or was committing or attempting to commit a criminal offense against any person, or was teasing, tormenting, or abusing the dog on the owner's, keeper's, or harborer's property.
In truth the op could sue the dog owner just for the harasment of the livestock.
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12/01/09, 08:16 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Missouri Ozarks
Posts: 5,069
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Quote:
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Again I will post her rights:
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Please stop with the "why do you think its okay to trespass and harass livestock" rhetoric. I think some of you have lost sight of what the OP posted and no one on this entire thread has said that or implied that. You can prefer charges like the OP did but obviously the authorities declined to prosecute so her question is WHAT ARE MY RIGHTS NOW THAT THE AUTHORITIES HAVE DECLINED PROSECUTION so posting the Ohio Revised code tells me you didnt read the OP.
You will not likely prevail in civil court unless you can prove monetary damages or that the trespassing persists; the OP never says the turkeys were injured and she in fact sold them (or is intending to). The fact that you were irritated and upset that he was trespassing and accusing the guy of harassing your livestock isnt going to convince a judge to give you damages (the trespasser will deny the intent to harass and you have no proof of anything). Once confronted, he left the property so there is no continuing aggravation to mitigate.
Quote:
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Don't forget that Ohio has a Castle law
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Your castle law applies to structures and dwellings that the trespasser is attempting to gain access to and you or a family member have to be in the structure (2305.40 Ohio Revised Code). Not sure what that has to do with this situation but I wouldnt want to pin my hopes on that when the cops come (picture a dead dog, no wounded livestock, a crying preacher holding a leash, neighbors pointing out prior issues). More importantly, why would you want to do that anyway if she was able to get the guy and his dog to leave without shooting it? Is that how you deal with your neighbors in your area? I just dont think pulling a gun as a first course of action is wise.
She has gotten lots of advice and what makes the most sense to me is to move on and get over it. If you think she should keep beating this dead horse then that is your opinion and recommendation and while I dont agree with that, I dont begrudge you your opinion.
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12/01/09, 08:33 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 19,350
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My reason for posting the law is just in case the moron decides to come back. As for him leaving when confronted, no he didn't leave until the police were called. Her right since the local police decided not to take it further is to be able to call the county police or even the state proscecuting attorney and file charges against the trespasser if the op wishes to do so. There are a million ways to sue and win against such a person in civil court, if one wished to do so. Injured turkey pictures or pictures of a yard full of feathers would be helpful in such a case. In many cases the local police won't do a thing, in those cases you can go over their heads. I would persue having the "preacher" arrested for harboring a vicious dog and dog fighting. IMO, anybody who would sick a dog on livestock has more than a few screws loose.
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12/01/09, 09:38 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Missouri Ozarks
Posts: 5,069
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Danaus29, since the OP states the trespasser went back to SC shortly after the event I am curious what you mean about going over the cops heads to prosecute or to sue him in civil court. Do you mean you think the SC Police will prosecute him for an Ohio trespass that was not prosecuted in Ohio?
There was also nothing in the OP about "injured turkeys", a "yard full of feathers" and her post is clear she called the cops after he left; do you mean hypothetically?
I am not a poultry terrorist sympathizer....I just am realistic and believe that civil dialog with my neighbors (even when they do something stupid) is usually more productive than cursing, shooting leashed dogs and violence in general.
Kind of a vicious crowd here at HT when it comes to poultry; I am now afraid I would be lynched in the poultry forum!! I think I will stick with my cows
Last edited by salmonslayer; 12/01/09 at 09:41 PM.
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12/01/09, 10:02 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 19,350
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The injured turkey is hypothetical as is the yard full of feathers. The police were township police, townships are located in counties and the county sheriff would be more likely to persue a case. Charges can be filed in county courts and that is where the case (if the op wanted to do this) would be filed. The person with the dog is related to one of the neighbors and was visiting them when the incident occured. Chances are good that the person could return and do the same thing.
It has been my experience that you just can't reason with people who treat all the world as if it owes them and they should always have their way and do whatever they want.
Poultry owners are just like any other animal owner. We defend our animals, especially those we use to earn some money. Some animals can be terrorized to death by stupid acts such as the one performed in the original post. Rabbits would die from being chased like that. Pregnant horses and cows could abort or give birth to dead babies. If the turkeys were actively breeding the laying cycle could be thrown off. Turkeys that were meant to keep for future breeding could suffer from the stress of such an attack and never be safe to keep near any dog ever again. (a full grown turkey could attack and do quite a bit of damage to a small dog, too bad these didn't choose to do so) If you had even seen what happens to livestock after being harassed like that, count yourself lucky. It's bad enough when a loose dog attacks or harasses an animal, even worse when a person is egging that dog on. It can be enough to cause a formerly docile animal into attacking or running from people afterward. When you plan on keeping that animal and it gets terrorized into thinking people are it's enemy and then has to be put down it is a blow to your breeding program. How do you put a price on time and effort lost in such a case?
I'm probably quite a bit meaner about livestock harassment than some others here. I had a lovely heifer that had to be put down because she was harassed. Before she was terrorized I could lead her around and she would follow me like a puppy. Afterward I couldn't get anywhere near her or she would try to stomp on me. I have also lost some really good rabbits because of people who refused to keep their dogs off my property.
I feel very sorry for the people who live near the accused turkey terrorist. He probably does this stuff where he lives but no one has the nerve to stand up to him.
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12/02/09, 12:04 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Missouri Ozarks
Posts: 5,069
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Ohio is obviously a magnet for poultry terrorists and you have a higher threat level so your defensive posture is higher.
I lost all my poultry (save one nervous hen) to martins, eagles, and a raid by a black bear.
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12/02/09, 12:10 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salmonslayer
Ohio is obviously a magnet for poultry terrorists and you have a higher threat level so your defensive posture is higher.
I lost all my poultry (save one nervous hen) to martins, eagles, and a raid by a black bear.
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If you have turkey for Christmas dinner, the terrorists win.
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12/02/09, 03:01 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Okanagan Valley BC
Posts: 138
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salmonslayer you have a good point but you kind of ruin it by going off and insulting people who do not agree with you.
Probably the guys dog ran off and he was trying to get it. Probably the OP could have been more polite. But then again a woman by herself at 7am might be just a little spooked to have someone on her property she does not know.
The OP may have problems with her neighbors and they may be one of those annoying neighbors or it may be the other way around we don't have a whole lot of facts to go with.
What she asked was what are her rights against this trespasser? Her rights were given just because you disagree with the use of a weapon as a deterrent does not impact her right to use it or others rights to suggest the use of it.
If you would like to share positivity why you are against guns and how neighbors should get along by all means share. But please stop being a bad forum neighbor and insulting the OP and other posters. I realize you as well were insulted but it does not go well toward your stance of being a good neighbor when you fling the junk back just like those who you are against fling it at you.
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12/02/09, 07:07 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Alvin, Tx
Posts: 1,881
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Salmonslayer, I believe in a previous post you stated you are a man? I don't think you would be so quick to critizise her behavior if you were a woman who had ever felt a moment of fear. Why do you think woman are told never to go meet someone without their husband or another male? Because most people would think twice about pulling something with a man around.
Would preacherman have pulled such a stupid stunt if he thought OP's husband was home? Maybe, but I bet he would have left the first time asked and not laughed or waited until OP threatened to call police.
Until you have had to live near people who are like some of the neighbors described here, you can't imagine what it's like. I once moved into a neighborhood across from the neighborhood bully. Everyone had put up with him and just wanted to keep peace by being civil to him even though he was less than civil. Just as an example, he borrored tractor tires from another neighbor. Months later when asked to return them, he slashed them and threw them in the guy's yard. The guy should have sued but didn't. He just let it go.
I saw him shooting across a road into my next door neighbor's yard. He was trying to shoot one of their dogs. I called the neighbor who called the police. He denied it, the neighbor didn't push it and they all remained friendly. In retaliation for witnesses his deed and saying something, he shot my dog. I refused to be bullied though and did not back down. He left me alone. I was friendly with other neighbors but would have responded in the same way as OP if I found him or anyone from his home in my yard.
To the OP, I think you can at least call the DA or someone in a similar position about what happened. They might not be able to do anything to the tresspasser since he has since left the area, but might be able to talk to the officers involved about how to handle such a situation in the future.
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12/02/09, 07:31 AM
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Fair to adequate Mod
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Between Crosslake and Emily Minnesota
Posts: 13,728
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I believe this thread has had sufficient time for everyone concerned to express thier opinion. I don't want to see it deteriorate anymore than it already has.
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