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  #61  
Old 11/29/09, 01:59 AM
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Just for those that think something can't turn deadly fast. Locally a man shot and killed his ex-wife's unarmed boy friend with a .357 while he tried to take cover behind a car about thirty feet away. The man's father was in the trailer aiming a rifle at the boyfriend at the same time. The upshot was the killer was convicted of the lowest level of manslaughter which is a misdemeanor in WV. He got off with time served.

The victim was standing on a state highway when he was shot and killed. I don't mean that's good. I'm posting it to show that unless you're familiar with an area you don't know what you can possibly be facing. On occasion I have a reason to knock on doors. Today it was cattle in the road. Regardless I pay strict attention and heed no trespassing signs.

There are places in this country you don't mess around. It is a fact of life. In the situation I mentioned, the killer was obviously very willing to shoot. FWIW he lives about fifty feet from a state police office.

To show how stupid people are, his ex-wife's latest boyfriend was driving by yelling that he wasn't afraid. Local law enforcement had a talk with the boyfriend. Part of which was explaining how the murderer would probably get off again after he was killed.

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  #62  
Old 11/29/09, 02:16 AM
 
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I've stayed out of this one, but I call BS on that last post.

Docket number, please.

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  #63  
Old 11/29/09, 06:04 AM
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Axe handle up side the head!!!!!

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  #64  
Old 11/29/09, 10:18 AM
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TurnerHill check your private messages. It's not BS.

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  #65  
Old 11/29/09, 02:22 PM
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Just the title of the post "what are my rights" sort of sets the theme for the rest of the posts. In any social situation there are the laws and then there are the enforcement of the laws. The laws are there so folks can hopefully get along with each other in a peaceable manner. When investigating "what are my rights" there is sort of a presumption of expecting the law to make things right and that doesn't work in all social situations.

IMHO, the original poster has no respect from her neighbors in her area. I don't know if she ever will get respect from them, it seems doubtful. Mostly my opinion is based on what I think her nature may be, but this is a very limited view since we only see what she writes.

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  #66  
Old 11/29/09, 03:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotzcatz View Post
IMHO, the original poster has no respect from her neighbors in her area. I don't know if she ever will get respect from them, it seems doubtful. Mostly my opinion is based on what I think her nature may be, but this is a very limited view since we only see what she writes.
I don't respect one of my neighbors. I also don't walk onto his land unannounced and unwanted.

This is not meant to apply to the OP. Jerks have the same rights as everyone else in this country.
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  #67  
Old 11/29/09, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Norman View Post
I don't respect one of my neighbors. I also don't walk onto his land unannounced and unwanted.

This is not meant to apply to the OP. Jerks have the same rights as everyone else in this country.
THANK YOU! That is the point I was tryng to make!
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  #68  
Old 11/29/09, 04:58 PM
 
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In this case, after telling the guy to leave my animals alone and he was trespassing,please leave, and he still stood there laughing ( assuming I got the story straight), I would have shot the dog for harassing livestock. Let him laugh then.

As a landowner:

1) I will warn you once to leave the premises. After that, it's an ass kickin. I have a great story about a college kid selling books door to door who wouldn't leave after fair warning. When I threw down my shovel and started for him, he got more of an education than the university was giving him I suspect. The look on my wife's face when she came out of the house and there's some kid running across our lawn was priceless.

2) Animals harassing my livestock will be shot. Mine are fenced or stay where they belong, I expect the same. UNLESS I know whose it is, then I will give fair warning to keep good relations. After that, SSS.

3) I got rid of the four wheeler problem when we bought our land by suprising the heck out of the kids from town by meeting them on the trail and telling them sternly to leave the property and don't come back. To maintain that peace, I let slip that there's 2x4's with nails in them buried in the woods, and they believe it.

4) As for hunters, I have a "you wash my back I'll wash yours" policy. You can feel free to cross onto my property while hunting so long as I can yours. It's neighborly and we all get more land to hunt on that way. I have very little problem with trespassers as we all watch out for each other.

I'm actually pretty easy going about my property, but do expect certain courtesies as the owner, and give them to my neighbors in kind. And I never feel the need to brandish a firearm, although I certainly would if I felt threatened.

I do not tolerate anyone antagonizing my animals, not even invited guests. I certainly aint gonna tolerate it from a trespassing stranger.

It's all about respect. I expect it and give it until provoked otherwise. Provoke me and I don't need to be nice, we're already past that stage.

Just my .02. Pretty simple, really.

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  #69  
Old 11/29/09, 05:52 PM
 
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>>>>So in a very colorful language fashion, I went out the door and yelled what the ...are you doing? He laughed and stood there. So i yelled get the ...off my property. Your tresspassing. he laughed again, staying put. So then I told him I would press charges if he did not leave and went on about how this is country but we still have laws and rules. Go back to the city...blah blah insert lots of colorful language. he left the proerty and went to the property he came from North of mine.<<<<

NChemungGuy, You are absolutely correct. Respect gains respect, disrespect does not.

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  #70  
Old 11/29/09, 06:43 PM
 
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I probably would have went out with a shotgun and confronted the good minister. And when he laughs at the situation that he finds himself in I would have very likely shot the dog. Now it's my turn to laugh, yet cry because it wasn't the little dog's fault but a simple stupid man's error who obviously believes he is covered under the good Lord's grace for any stupidity or sin he may commit. What an a**hat. Actually the worse kind there is to be honest.

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  #71  
Old 11/29/09, 07:14 PM
 
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I suspect that some posters have a lot of issues with trespassers and neighbors which colors their view but terrorizing a college kid or shooting a leashed dog? Sorry, you need to be in jail.

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  #72  
Old 11/29/09, 07:16 PM
 
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Quote:
I probably would have went out with a shotgun and confronted the good minister. And when he laughs at the situation that he finds himself in I would have very likely shot the dog. Now it's my turn to laugh, yet cry because it wasn't the little dog's fault but a simple stupid man's error who obviously believes he is covered under the good Lord's grace for any stupidity or sin he may commit. What an a**hat. Actually the worse kind there is to be honest.
I just read on the Internet (seems to not be reported on by the MSM) that the FBI is looking for renegade Episcopalian preacher Olaf "Grampa Ole" Winkleman from Brainerd Minnesota who is the reported head of a poultry terrorist group. He is described as a normal looking guy wearing a cardigan and carrying a bible so maybe there is more to this than first meets the eye.
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  #73  
Old 11/29/09, 07:55 PM
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Lololol

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  #74  
Old 11/29/09, 08:53 PM
 
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So that Jack Russell look alike was actually a well trained fox, eh?

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  #75  
Old 11/30/09, 10:08 AM
 
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Terrorizing a college kid ? No, more like following through after repeatedly telling him I was not interested in his products and I wanted him off my property NOW. How long should one tolerate disrespect on their own land when they're trying to get some work done before the rain, and be told I HAVE to peruse his products and let my kids look at his children's books before you think it's reasonable to get mad ? Same goes for harassing livestock.

have hardly any trouble with trespassers or door to door salesmen because I don't put up with anyone's crap, and most know it. Those that don't, soon find out.

Some on here may feel it's ok to be kind and gentle to those who are disrespectful to you as a landowner. I however, disagree, and am not one of those who then go online to complain about troubles I could have avoided.

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  #76  
Old 11/30/09, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie L View Post
A preacher of WHAT? .....
If he had a mustache and goatee and was laughing like the Devil, I'd say he was from the Universal Church of Satan!

If he had a forked tail and a pitchfork, I'd have gotten the shotgun!
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  #77  
Old 11/30/09, 02:07 PM
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More seriously... It sounds like maybe his dog got loose on the property and he was trying to get it back.

He probably realized he was in a bad situation and was hoping that a big friendly smile might diffuse it.

Would it have been better if he were scowling angrily?

Ultimately, he owes the land owner an apology.

I would have smiled and said "Hey there! Sorry, my dog ran onto your property and I can't get him! We'll be outta here soon as I calm him down. Sorry for the intrusion."

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  #78  
Old 11/30/09, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NChemungGuy View Post

I have hardly any trouble with trespassers or door to door salesmen because I don't put up with anyone's crap, and most know it. Those that don't, soon find out.
How do you deal with Jehovah's Witnesses?
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  #79  
Old 11/30/09, 07:51 PM
 
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I actually have a sign on my door "No Solicitors" for a couple reasons. One, my wife works nights, and it helps keep the salesmen from waking her up. We also have guys that go around and sell meat out of a pickup, probably stolen by the looks of them. They see the sign and leave.

Occasionally someone will ignore the sign on the door and ring anyway. I say hello, and ask them what's up. I just say "not interested" and shut the door, I don't believe I owe them any more of an explanation.

Kids, I will buy from, they don't know what the sign means anyway.

May be the same for the Jehovah's Witnesses. However, assuming one came to the door, I wouldn't be a jerk about it, just tell them I understand what they're doing, but I've got my beliefs as well and I'm not interested in discussing it. If they hand me a "Watchtower", I take it and just throw it away when I come back inside.

Someone I know once said to just tell them you'll give them 15 minutes if they give you 15 minutes, and home field advantage dictates you go first.

I'm not an A- hole until I absolutely need to be.

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  #80  
Old 12/01/09, 03:28 PM
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salmonslayer, I sure hope you never have to deal with someone who brings a leashed dog onto your property and then uses that dog to attack and kill or maim your animals. According to Ohio law any dog owner who commits such a crime (and using a dog to terrorize any domestic animal is a crime) is subject to charges of animal cruelty, dog fighting, and failure to control their dog. The op had a legal right to shoot the dog which was in her yard menacing her animals. That was her right. Since I also live in Ohio I also have the right to shoot any menacing animal which is on my property. I could also have the dog's owner put in jail. The dog owner has no right or respect for others (a fact for which he will pay dearly when he stands in judgement) when he uses his dog to menace livestock.

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  #81  
Old 12/01/09, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danaus29 View Post
salmonslayer, I sure hope you never have to deal with someone who brings a leashed dog onto your property and then uses that dog to attack and kill or maim your animals. According to Ohio law any dog owner who commits such a crime (and using a dog to terrorize any domestic animal is a crime) is subject to charges of animal cruelty, dog fighting, and failure to control their dog. The op had a legal right to shoot the dog which was in her yard menacing her animals. That was her right. Since I also live in Ohio I also have the right to shoot any menacing animal which is on my property. I could also have the dog's owner put in jail. The dog owner has no right or respect for others (a fact for which he will pay dearly when he stands in judgement) when he uses his dog to menace livestock.
Just to be clear, you don't have the right to endanger another person, even if you would otherwise be justified in shooting the dog. If the dog in question was in fact leashed, it was almost certainly close enough to its owner that shooting it would endanger the owner.

Besides, salmonslayer's posts were pretty clearly about what one SHOULD do, not what one MAY do.
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Last edited by TurnerHill; 12/01/09 at 05:31 PM.
  #82  
Old 12/01/09, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerHill View Post
Just to be clear, you don't have the right to endanger another person, even if you would otherwise be justified in shooting the dog. If the dog in question was in fact leashed, it was almost certainly close enough to its owner that shooting it would endanger the owner.

Besides, salmonslayer's posts were pretty clearly about what one SHOULD do, not what one MAY do.
Just to be clear, it all depends on circumstances. A person may in fact shoot a leashed dog without endangering the owner. Depends on the length of the leash and the angle of the shot.

Your view are clearly colored by your opinions and we all know what opinions are like. It may be, given the nature of the circumstances that a person may have the right to endanger another person. Don't forget that Ohio has a Castle law.... not as strong as the one in Texas but a Castle law nonetheless.

As far as Salmonslayer opining what one SHOULD do.... yet another opinion. My opinion is that one should NOT go on other peoples property without permission. One SHOULD NOT harass other peoples livestock whether from on that persons property or off that persons property. Just because you are standing on the road doesn't mean you can sling rocks and someones animals with impunity.

Have you ever considered that if there were likely to be immediate and dire consequences to a persons abusive actions that people might be just a little more considerate?

Just a few opinions that will likely slide right past a few people.

Mike
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Last edited by Mike in Ohio; 12/01/09 at 06:32 PM.
  #83  
Old 12/01/09, 06:08 PM
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TurnerHill, obviously you've never heard of a retractable leash. Most of those are over 20 feet long. More than enough space to shoot the dog without endangering the owner. If the dog was far enough that the op couldn't see it when she confronted the owner than the dog was far enough away to be shot without endangering the owner. The op asked about her rights.

Again I will post her rights:
Ohio Revised Codes, § 955.28 Dog may be killed for certain acts; owner liable for damages.
(A) Subject to divisions (A)(2) and (3) of section 955.261 [955.26.1] of the Revised Code, a dog that is chasing or approaching in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack, that attempts to bite or otherwise endanger, or that kills or injures a person or a dog that chases, injures, or kills livestock, poultry, other domestic animal, or other animal, that is the property of another person, except a cat or another dog, can be killed at the time of that chasing, approaching, attempt, killing, or injury. If, in attempting to kill such a dog, a person wounds it, he is not liable to prosecution under the penal laws which punish cruelty to animals.
(B) The owner, keeper, or harborer of a dog is liable in damages for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that is caused by the dog, unless the injury, death, or loss was caused to the person or property of an individual who, at the time, was committing or attempting to commit a trespass or other criminal offense on the property of the owner, keeper, or harborer, or was committing or attempting to commit a criminal offense against any person, or was teasing, tormenting, or abusing the dog on the owner's, keeper's, or harborer's property.

In truth the op could sue the dog owner just for the harasment of the livestock.

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  #84  
Old 12/01/09, 08:16 PM
 
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Location: Missouri Ozarks
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Quote:
Again I will post her rights:
Please stop with the "why do you think its okay to trespass and harass livestock" rhetoric. I think some of you have lost sight of what the OP posted and no one on this entire thread has said that or implied that. You can prefer charges like the OP did but obviously the authorities declined to prosecute so her question is WHAT ARE MY RIGHTS NOW THAT THE AUTHORITIES HAVE DECLINED PROSECUTION so posting the Ohio Revised code tells me you didnt read the OP.

You will not likely prevail in civil court unless you can prove monetary damages or that the trespassing persists; the OP never says the turkeys were injured and she in fact sold them (or is intending to). The fact that you were irritated and upset that he was trespassing and accusing the guy of harassing your livestock isnt going to convince a judge to give you damages (the trespasser will deny the intent to harass and you have no proof of anything). Once confronted, he left the property so there is no continuing aggravation to mitigate.

Quote:
Don't forget that Ohio has a Castle law
Your castle law applies to structures and dwellings that the trespasser is attempting to gain access to and you or a family member have to be in the structure (2305.40 Ohio Revised Code). Not sure what that has to do with this situation but I wouldnt want to pin my hopes on that when the cops come (picture a dead dog, no wounded livestock, a crying preacher holding a leash, neighbors pointing out prior issues). More importantly, why would you want to do that anyway if she was able to get the guy and his dog to leave without shooting it? Is that how you deal with your neighbors in your area? I just dont think pulling a gun as a first course of action is wise.

She has gotten lots of advice and what makes the most sense to me is to move on and get over it. If you think she should keep beating this dead horse then that is your opinion and recommendation and while I dont agree with that, I dont begrudge you your opinion.
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  #85  
Old 12/01/09, 08:33 PM
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My reason for posting the law is just in case the moron decides to come back. As for him leaving when confronted, no he didn't leave until the police were called. Her right since the local police decided not to take it further is to be able to call the county police or even the state proscecuting attorney and file charges against the trespasser if the op wishes to do so. There are a million ways to sue and win against such a person in civil court, if one wished to do so. Injured turkey pictures or pictures of a yard full of feathers would be helpful in such a case. In many cases the local police won't do a thing, in those cases you can go over their heads. I would persue having the "preacher" arrested for harboring a vicious dog and dog fighting. IMO, anybody who would sick a dog on livestock has more than a few screws loose.

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  #86  
Old 12/01/09, 09:38 PM
 
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Danaus29, since the OP states the trespasser went back to SC shortly after the event I am curious what you mean about going over the cops heads to prosecute or to sue him in civil court. Do you mean you think the SC Police will prosecute him for an Ohio trespass that was not prosecuted in Ohio?

There was also nothing in the OP about "injured turkeys", a "yard full of feathers" and her post is clear she called the cops after he left; do you mean hypothetically?

I am not a poultry terrorist sympathizer....I just am realistic and believe that civil dialog with my neighbors (even when they do something stupid) is usually more productive than cursing, shooting leashed dogs and violence in general.

Kind of a vicious crowd here at HT when it comes to poultry; I am now afraid I would be lynched in the poultry forum!! I think I will stick with my cows

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Last edited by salmonslayer; 12/01/09 at 09:41 PM.
  #87  
Old 12/01/09, 10:02 PM
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The injured turkey is hypothetical as is the yard full of feathers. The police were township police, townships are located in counties and the county sheriff would be more likely to persue a case. Charges can be filed in county courts and that is where the case (if the op wanted to do this) would be filed. The person with the dog is related to one of the neighbors and was visiting them when the incident occured. Chances are good that the person could return and do the same thing.

It has been my experience that you just can't reason with people who treat all the world as if it owes them and they should always have their way and do whatever they want.

Poultry owners are just like any other animal owner. We defend our animals, especially those we use to earn some money. Some animals can be terrorized to death by stupid acts such as the one performed in the original post. Rabbits would die from being chased like that. Pregnant horses and cows could abort or give birth to dead babies. If the turkeys were actively breeding the laying cycle could be thrown off. Turkeys that were meant to keep for future breeding could suffer from the stress of such an attack and never be safe to keep near any dog ever again. (a full grown turkey could attack and do quite a bit of damage to a small dog, too bad these didn't choose to do so) If you had even seen what happens to livestock after being harassed like that, count yourself lucky. It's bad enough when a loose dog attacks or harasses an animal, even worse when a person is egging that dog on. It can be enough to cause a formerly docile animal into attacking or running from people afterward. When you plan on keeping that animal and it gets terrorized into thinking people are it's enemy and then has to be put down it is a blow to your breeding program. How do you put a price on time and effort lost in such a case?

I'm probably quite a bit meaner about livestock harassment than some others here. I had a lovely heifer that had to be put down because she was harassed. Before she was terrorized I could lead her around and she would follow me like a puppy. Afterward I couldn't get anywhere near her or she would try to stomp on me. I have also lost some really good rabbits because of people who refused to keep their dogs off my property.

I feel very sorry for the people who live near the accused turkey terrorist. He probably does this stuff where he lives but no one has the nerve to stand up to him.

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  #88  
Old 12/02/09, 12:04 AM
 
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Ohio is obviously a magnet for poultry terrorists and you have a higher threat level so your defensive posture is higher.

I lost all my poultry (save one nervous hen) to martins, eagles, and a raid by a black bear.

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  #89  
Old 12/02/09, 12:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salmonslayer View Post
Ohio is obviously a magnet for poultry terrorists and you have a higher threat level so your defensive posture is higher.

I lost all my poultry (save one nervous hen) to martins, eagles, and a raid by a black bear.
If you have turkey for Christmas dinner, the terrorists win.
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  #90  
Old 12/02/09, 03:01 AM
 
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salmonslayer you have a good point but you kind of ruin it by going off and insulting people who do not agree with you.

Probably the guys dog ran off and he was trying to get it. Probably the OP could have been more polite. But then again a woman by herself at 7am might be just a little spooked to have someone on her property she does not know.

The OP may have problems with her neighbors and they may be one of those annoying neighbors or it may be the other way around we don't have a whole lot of facts to go with.

What she asked was what are her rights against this trespasser? Her rights were given just because you disagree with the use of a weapon as a deterrent does not impact her right to use it or others rights to suggest the use of it.

If you would like to share positivity why you are against guns and how neighbors should get along by all means share. But please stop being a bad forum neighbor and insulting the OP and other posters. I realize you as well were insulted but it does not go well toward your stance of being a good neighbor when you fling the junk back just like those who you are against fling it at you.

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