Help with LGD

LGD's normally sleep during the day, and are more active at night, much like the predators they guard against

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OK, we are clear that LGDs bark for reasons known only to them, barking all night is a deterrent to predators, LGD should be free to bark and the neighbors are bothered by the dog's nightly barking.

I, too, live in an area with few rules and regulations, such as noise ordinances. Around here, that doesn't mean the dog can bark all night and the neighbors have to put up with it. It simply means the police won't be directly involved with resolving the problem.

The inter-city isn't the only place that can have drive-by shootings. I've heard of people poisoning neighbor's pets as a silent way to resolve a problem. These are not appropriate solutions. The pets suffer due to the owner's reluctance or inability to resolve the problem. But, the reality is that it does happen.

Thousands of pit bulls are euthanized each year because people thought they needed a guard dog, but the dogs presented more problems than they were worth.

Border Collie Rescues are in nearly every state because people thought they needed a herding dog, but under-estimated the commitment required in owing a working dog.

I know of many sheep farms, in areas with plenty of predators, that don't have a LGD. I've raised a wide variety of livestock and fowl without a LGD. I left sheep in the pasture at night and coyotes killed them. I let the ducks stay down at the creek at night and a fox ate them. I learned that I have to secure my animals at night.

Any dog that disturbs the neighbors is on borrowed time. This LGD is nearly full grown and still barking all night, just as some claim LDG do, part of their nature. My suggestion to find him another home isn't fueled by hostility. I see this as the beginnings of a situation that ends up a lot worse than a new home for Fido.

Several people have offered different solutions. I hope something works. But to me, a dog bred to bark all night isn't compatable on smaller tracts with non-farming neighbors.

Ditto, this would defeat the whole purpose of having a LGD. I think the idea of locking her up in the barn area with the stock is the best bet. We have found that our youngest dog (Kuvasz x Anatolian), born in Feb 2009 so similar in age, also tends to be mouthy but I believe he is trying to be "Super Guardian" and over compensates. He is much quieter when he is with his mom or another dog as I think he does not feel he has to be so really ON as much.

I realize that you are trying to be a good neighbor, which is important, but you have a right to keep your stock safe. In the state of Oregon there was actually a lawsuit involving someone with LGD's and a neighbor who complained about the barking. The courts decided in favor of the dog owner (who had sheep/goats or something in need of being guarded) and it is refered to as "the right to farm".

Does this neighbor understand what the dog is barking about? I have found in the 20 years I have had Anatolians and more recently Kuvasz that some people just don't seem to get that the barking is not just to hear themselves make noise in most cases.

He's not even half grown, mentally
They dont mature until they are 2 years old

They arent "bred to bark all night". They bark when there is a predator nearby.
I can barely hear mine if the windows are closed, and they are less than 100 ft from the house

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It comes as no surprise that you don't hear your own dog bark, many dog owners don't hear their dog. That is the problem. Most folks do not tolerate anything that disrupts their sleep.

As RMJAcres wrote, "She's doing her job. Barking is part of predator deterrent to her. Just part of the breed.", I can see how that would work. Just as effective as firing off a shotgun every half hour, but easier. However, the concern isn't the effectiveness of a LGD or a shotgun, it is the concern over a barking dog. The neighbor isn't concerned over what LGDs do or don't do. They expect to be able to sleep in the relative quiet rural setting.

I have a friend that owns 80 acres, mostly wooded, near the end of a gravel road. She spends many hours gardening or walking silently in the woods. A quarter mile away, a family moved in that has three dogs. A tiny yapping house dog, a collie and a Lab. The dogs stay in their yard and are outside all day, while the owners are at work. In the evening, the dogs are often outside, while the blue glow of the TV lights up their living room. They bark non-stop. It spoils the peaceful gardening, watching the sun set and listening to birds. While these dogs are just barking to hear themselves bark, it makes little difference to the neighbor the excuse for the hours of nightly barking. "just doing their job" isn't justifiable.

This isn't the first thread about barking troubles with LGD and neighbors. The neighbor was friendly this time. They might be friendly the next time. But eventually it is going to get ugly.

Part of homesteading is independence. But to truly make it on the land, you need a compatible community. You don't need to agree with them all the time, but you need to try to get along.

Co-existing here is the key. I have a neighbor that raises sheep. He was complaining to another neighbor about the increasing number of wolves nearby. That neighbor was glad for the wolves. It means less deer damage to her garden. These widely differing views must still get along in one community.

I was thinking that planting some trees and hedges might muffle the sound some, but it probably wouldn't be enough to satisfy your neighbor unless you were to plant a forest. Good luck.

She did very well last night again with no escapes. Yesterday, the neighbor called and thanked us for the improvement each of the last two nights.

BearFootFarm: Thank you for the links. I will have to check them out more when I have some free time. I was checking out your site. Obviously you know a lot about raising LGDs... What is your take on the bark collar? I always heard that to be a big NO NO.

Haypoint: I understand your point of view as well, I live in an area that has a history of dog-related issues. Having a good relationship with my neighbors is important to me and I do not feel that they should have to hear the dog bark all night. I was surprised to hear that they could hear her so well. Like BearFootFarm, I could barely hear her at night from a few hundred feet away, so I assumed that my neighbors (much much farther away) could not hear her in their house at all. Where I differ from your view, is that I feel that as a responsible dog owner, I should try everything within my power to solve the problem before handing her off to an over-crowded rescue or some other unknowing buyer.

Edmonds, That probably is a good idea. I actually just finished clearing brush near their pen, which likely amplified the problem. We were hoping that clearing would give her a better view and keep the critters away. Now it would definitely take a lot of trees to fill the gap.

Again, thank you all for your input.

Our 4 Pyrs have the run of the yard and the pasture in the middle of our 67 acres--buffer zone around the perimeter because we can't afford to fence the whole property right now. They bark when there is a predator. Sometimes they are right under our bedroom window, sometime out at the fence line. But they are effective and our closest neighbors don't complain.

I would NEVER lock my dogs into the shed at night. That just gives any predators license to come ever closer to the house and outbuildings and I often go to the barn at odd hours of the night, especially during kidding season.

And like Ozark Jewels and another poster, a 10 mo old LGD is still a baby mentally even if they don't look like one. Don't get rid of the dog, get him a partner.

Interesting how you can tell just by reading the different posts, who knows LGDs and who doesn't.
Good job, norcalfarm.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

I'd never put one on any dog of mine.

Your dog may be large physically, but she's still a baby. There are probably things she feels threatened by now, that in a few months, she will learn poses no danger. Then she will simply ignore them.

Maremmas alert to things that are new or out of the ordinary. At this stage, lots of things are still new to her

Good luck!

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You've already got good advice. The only thing I can add is that the shed, if it's only eight feet square as you mentioned above, is too small to be confining five goats with a dog -- any dog. If the goats, in moving around, step on the dog, she may eventually get upset enough to bite. I've had that happen with a dog that never otherwise would hurt a flea and never bothered the goats at all. He was in a pen several times the size of your little shed, with only one young goat, and I found tooth marks on the goat's neck -- nothing serious, but he did break the skin. The dog was very tolerant, but didn't appreciate being stepped on by a goat's sharp hooves. So if you have to continue confining the dog with the goats, it would probably be a good idea to build a larger shelter for them. One with separate areas for the dog and the goats might be advisable.

Kathleen

Interesting how you can tell just by reading the different posts, who has barking dogs and who doesn't.

Yup, my dogs bark but I have absolutely no losses to predation, unlike my neighbors in every location I have ever lived in 20 years of having livestock guardian dogs. I do, however, make ever effort to keep that at a reasonable level by placement of the dog is areas where any barking they do will not cause a problem to my neighbors.

These breeds have been doing what they are doing for many, many years. They cannot do it mute, part of their goal is to simply make it too much of a pain in the butt for a coyote, bear, mountain lion, etc. to bother with "their" flock. They will go next door to the other guys unprotected flock and have a meal rather then trying to deal with the dog who will back up that bark with muscle.

Your comment implys that you think these dogs are just barking for the h*ll of it all and that the owners of said dogs are just being bad neighbors and rude. Nothing could be further from the truth. My husband and I are currently looking at property to move to. We have removed from our list anything with neighbors in close proximity because we do not want them to be upset by our dogs doing their job. It makes our quest for a property all the more difficult, but this is very important to us as we want to have good relationships with our neighbors and we know that some would be more bothered by barking then others. Not worth having people ----ed at you.

So, how many LGD's do you own, which breed, and how long have you had them?

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Lol same thing, just said a different way. Anyone who has lgds has barking dogs. It's the nature of the beast.

When I went to feed this morning, I counted noses and found 4 attached to Pyrs. I saw a fifth attached to a smaller white critter and in my not quite alert brain, I thought it was our mostly white cat. Nope. Too big for him. It was a Pyr puppy, about 6 weeks old. Cold, wet, hungry and already accepted by the adult Pyrs but the goats were still a little distrusting. Our pasture and the dogs can be seen from the road so my guess is that someone deliberately left this little treasure for us. I have friends who would take her so that's no problem. If DH is willing to part with her when he gets home this evening, that is.

It's the lowest of the low to leave a puppy stranded at that age at this time of year. I pray there is a special torment in H*** for anybody who mistreats the weak and helpless.

It's hard to argue with that

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And your point?

I have 2 LGD's. They bark a lot. I'm still waiting to hear of your experience, in real life.

About LGD's.

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I cried because I had no shoes, until I saw a man who had no feet.

I guess since I don't actually own a LGD, I can't have a valid opinion?

I've had dogs that bark and have had neighbors that had dogs that bark. I've had dogs that stray and I've had dogs stray onto my property. I've had wild predators attack my livestock. I've had dogs attack my livestock. I've owned working dogs and hunting dogs and dogs that were simply pets.

At no time did I think that I had an actual need for a livestock guard dog.

I have seen situations escalate when one person's dog infringes on the peace and quiet of another's. I've not seen any situation where 2 LGD's that bark alot wouldn't have a negative impact on the surrounding community.

When a person convinces themselves that a LGD is the only solution to predation, I believe they are overlooking their responsibility to their community.

This thread was started by a person with the beginnings of community concern over the nightly barking of a LGD. Several suggestions were offered, most with counterpoints explaining why those solutions are cruel, worthless or that a barking LGD isn't really a problem.

Some people are good role models and have excellent parenting skills. Sadly, many don't. Some dog owners spend the required time and have the needed skills and understanding to raise a dog that is obedient and skillful in their assigned tasks. Many don't.

Examples I have seen prove that most dog owners underestimate the training needed for their dog. Hunting dogs that spoil the hunt. Stock dogs that chase livestock. Guard dogs that bite children.

Common sense dictates that I don't need a Border Collie for 10 sheep or a Black Lab for a couple weekends a year duck hunting or a Pit Bull to protect my "Dogs playing Pool" tapestry.

I don't need a self propelled combine to harvest a 1/4 acre of wheat. I don't need a manure spreader to handle the waste of a dozen rabbits. I don't need a LGD to protect 4 goats.

It is a free country. You can have what ever you can afford. If you want a LGD, get one. But as soon as your choices impact another's rights to an evening of quiet, the gloves are off.

If you can shut your dog up, the neighbor's concerns will fade. If you can't or won't, there is a good chance things will escalate. I've seen it happen many times. It doesn't matter to anyone that night time barking is an important part of every LGD's behavior.To them it is just barking.

Rather than try to justify night time barking, shouldn't the focus be on making sure we need a LGD and fully understanding the unique behavior of a LGD and insuring that adding a LGD to your community won't impact another's quality of life? Too late after you've brought him home.

The comment was made that the differing opinions were divided between those that owned LDG and those that didn't. It occurred to me that people commenting here and people in many communities are divided between those that have barking dogs and those that don't. Those with a LGD tend to stick up for their dog's behavior, while those that lose sleep due to a neighbor's dog barking don't care why the dog barks.

Since we know in human behavior that push comes to shove, it is in the dog's best interest to seek a resolution quickly. Because for everyone that thinks they have the right to allow their dog to bark on their property, they must also understand they are stepping over the line of accepted neighborhood civility. Throwing 100 aspirins balled up in some hamburger into your pasture is another example of unacceptable neighborhood civility. Sooner or later the problem gets solved.

They werent looking for opinions on community relations or how to kill your neighbors dog.
They were looking for advice on how to handle their LGD.

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