tn has shabby workers
 

I have found everytime I hire someone to do something, they do ka ka work. My barn was built and they were sposed to come back and do a trim piece..after I paid them they never bothered. The guy who we hired to paint the house never finished and what he did peeled off in a year,
the poolfolks left rocks in the bottom, icould go on and on.
We had a company trench about 1,000 feet of water line.The job was to include back filling the trench.
Am I picky or is leaving 4 inches of trench thru out long expanses inapropriate? They have already been paid..Paid b4 I saw rhere work...
would you expect the ground to be filled in or am I just incredibly picky?
how would you handle this.?

I'd quit paying folks before they completed the job you hired them to do.

You are not being picky, they did poor work.

Sadly, there is not much you can do unless you had a contract.
Next time, do not pay them until the job is done to your satisfaction.

When I mentioned the back fill they told me the earth has not settled. Settled??? Do I look stupid? Theres the trench and then piles of dirt along both sides of it. I have started to fill it in myself by hand...and it does pee me off. I had them come back out and do a water line for my horse trough. They are still owed 300.00 on that. I am tempted to tell them either back fill or I will take the 300 to rent a bob cat and do it myself. I hate to make waves, they are friendly local guys....don't want word to get out I am unreasonable. Think I will get some pictures tomorrow and you all can see what I am talking about.
These folks put in my septic as well..hope its not shoddy work where that is concerned.

You had them back out to do more work?

I believe the saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on thee. Fool me twice, shame on me."

only if your old english other wise its "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, get me three times Im just a sucker!"

ok I added the suck part but how wrong am I !

I've learned not to pay in advance
 

Pay for the materials up front, if they ask, but no more, and don't give anybody any money until you've inspected the work and it is to your satisfaction according to the contract. And, by golly, always have some sort of written agreement with specifications on how the work is to be completed.

For example, specifications on a paint job might include the type and brand of paint, how it is to be applied, how the surfaces are to be cleaned and prepared, etc.

A painter who has been in business a long time and has good recommendations will actually present that kind of info to you at the outset.

But even if they do, and even if they have good reputations, I would not pay them all up front.

The waterer was part of our original verbal agreement. It was put in after the other things but before I inspected their work.

yeah...its me...the sucker
Guess I just am very old school and have a work ethis. too bad others don't

I remember warning you about the quality of work in this area. Did they tell you what good Christians they are yet?

I couldn't even get contractors to show up on time to bring gravel for the driveway. After waiting a month and a half for 2 trucks of gravel they billed me 25% more then we agreed on. That's why when I needed to hire an extra couple hands to put the roof on the cabin I went to the Amish. They show up on time, work hard and charge less then half of what a contractor would.

Beeman
You did. Unfortunately the area workers are all we have to work with.Sure can't fly someone out from Minnesota to do the work.I got referrals from locals....There is only so many in the pool to choose from. Pole houe got started on today. Pray!

roachhill it is amish or menonitesthat are putting up my pole house...hoping..
I let themknow right up front I am incredibly picky.......figured they mise well know from the start what I expect.

legacy has it right. General contractors live with this all the time. Start with a request for bid, itemizing the job up-front. The one who does the work signs a written contract before starting (which separates the men from the boys real fast) and a percentage is always held back until after completion of the "punch list." Everyone knows EXACTLY what is expected from the get-go, and timelines, materials, and all the froofraws like showing insurance and getting permits are spelled out. You don't change the rules midstream, and if they don't perform, the contract spells out your options.

If you operate on a handshake with good ol' boys, you had better have a good ol' boy club to hold over their heads, like their being allowed to hunt or fish on the land, or a relation to one of their relations. Money isn't a real issue to some of these folks, they may be sitting on a pile of it and more concerned about what their church family or drinking buddies think than anything else. The same occurs in cities, only the names and groups change.

Hey.

If you're not happy with the work and they refuse to fix it, call the Better Business Bureau and file a complaint. Also, you can take them to court. Often, a threatening letter from a lawyer is all that's needed.

RF

Ask for references and check them before you hire anyone to work for you. Never pay in full for services before they're completed. Discuss, in detail, exactly what you expect them to do. Arrange to pay for a portion of the job and tell them you'll finish paying when the job is complete and done to your satisfaction. If they balk at that, don't hire them.

When they're working on your project, be there as much as possible to make sure they're doing what they were hired to do, no more, no less. If they forget something, remind them. If they pack up before the job is finished, ask them when they'll be back to complete the job. Stay in touch, everyday if necessary until the job is done. Don't bother them, but stay involved in the process while they're there.

If you aren't happy with the first job they do, don't ask them back again. You'll just be unhappy twice.

Remember, you're the boss. Be involved, keep the lines of communication open and make sure they understand what it is you expect of them.

I would have to say I have had a completely different experience of Tennessee workers.I've had a bunch of stuff done and in every case except the actual building of the house, the various workers wouldn't except a dime until the work was complete to our satisfaction. This includes a thousand foot gravel driveway and 1/2 acre pond and a tremendously sturdy pole barn. I tried to give the barn guy the cost of the materials but he wouldn't hear of it. The driveway guy wouldn't take the money untill 6 weeks after the job was done. He wanted to make sure the job held up through the wettest part of the spring. This was all amzing to me. Plus, we had this big house built without a contract, just a handshake. Probably not smart but everything has worked out amazingly well.
Sorry your experiences have been bad. I guess it varies depending on your area but the trades people here seem exceptionally honest and hard working

I'm only quoting this due to the reference to MN.
I'm getting the impression you don't want to be in TN. I'm wondering how much the locals know that?

I'm not saying leaving work undone is right, but if it's obvious about someone not wanting to be in their 'home' area, and maybe coming off as a superior acting 'yankee' - they might not be as neighborly.

Not saying any of this applies to your situation, but I do know it can effect work situations.

Angie

bak2tn and harry chickpea
 

bak2tn: My experience has been the same, although I did have one bad experience that taught me a lesson, and that was even with a written, signed agreement. My mistake was paying upfront. He asked for it, I did it, and I got the shaft.

Harry Chickpea knows . Boy, did he nail it.

wrong bout that
 

seems lots of assumptions to me. I LOVE TN, in fact this is now home.I have been here 15 years and don't plan on going anywhere. I think if anything I came across as a very nice,,not snotty -superior yankee, but a very excited person who is FINALLY about to finally move to the country.
Part of the problem I am having is they are really nice guys and I don;t want to insult them. But the fact remains they got 5500$ and they ought to do a good job. I still need gravel for driveway, several spots leveled and an electric line cut.Eventually a pond will be dug.They could have easily gotten another 5500 $ from me if they had done a good job.

Yea they were the cheapest out their. That is why they did a bad job. I used to work for the state and did some building repairs by contractor. Harry Chickpea is right. I tried to get some work done and run into the same problem now before I start they will give me a writen estimate and sign a contract before even starting to work. I had one that I asked for a contract to be signed before started he started to work he sent two men over to do the work and I told them to go back and tell him to come and sign a contract first. He didn't like that so I got another man to do the work. If I worded the contract right I have never been dissatisfied with the work. I even gave them a time to start work and when to finished and a date to be finished with all the work.

The reason Amish and Mennonites who do freelance work for less is they don't participate in the various government programs, such as unemployment insurance and social security.

If you are paying someone $7 hours, the actual cost to an employer is around $9 hour as they have to match some benefits.

Sorry if you think there's lots of assumptions, but the manner of the complaint did not sound like someone that wanted to be in TN. If it had not been so specific a locational rant, I probably would not have read the same meaning into it.

Glad you're happy to be in TN.

Angie

I fully support the Amish and there ability to avoid government thievery, the local Indian tribe too for that matter. I don't begrudge them for getting a better deal then I can.

Also it's not so much that they charge less but that they are honest workers.

Yes, I agree. And in addition to this you have to come over as friendly. Hang out at the job site some, offer them something to drink. If you don't they'll take the attitude that you're not "from around here" and feel justified in taking advantage to teach you your lesson. I've watched my neighbors go through this for years and they just don't get it. Never never never gripe about other contractors. I also wouldn't tell them you're "picky." You can do that just by your friendly presence and without being so in your face about it.
If a contractor doesn't give you an itemized estimate tell him you're still looking at bids and will "let him know." No word of mouth agreements.
If there's not a line item that says "certain % to be paid after cleanup and joint inspection," ask that it be added.

La Moncha lover- You should give a review of the contractors at angieslist.com. That can be a good or bad review, depending upon the work. Also you might find a recommended contractor there.

The problem is you are being too nice, paying before the job is done, and not being persistent in your requirement that it be done right.

We have the same issues in both of our locations. It's not just Tennessee. It learning to get references before hiring and then to require quality work.

I imagine that you probably would complain about being hung with a new rope.
Since I am from and in TN also currently building a Barn for a customer you are also talking about me. This customer who is not from TN (Great Person) doesn't have the experience in building so we are having to make changes in his wants explaining why as we go. We will change as needed for whatever he needs. That is part of the job. When he hired us we knew up front what was going to be involved. He also knew what we could and will do. I think you are doing two things.
1. You are hiring by price and not taking responsibility to investigate their previous jobs. People are out of jobs and even though they may mean well they just aren't meant for being a jobber.
2. You probably are a person who ask for grading and thinks that that means moving rocks and dump truck work.
If I was you I would hire Mexicans they are from Mexico. Buy supplies from Wal-Mart there from China. Also buy gas at CITGO so you can purchase from Chavez.
I do agree that there are some shabby workers in TN. There the same everywhere. The problems we have is not only some here but thouse transplants that have come from other places.

Sadly my best friend experienced this in Nashville and felt the best workers there are the illegals. Now she's in Richmond and many workers are eastern European immigrants (presumably legal). She thinks their work ethic and intelligence is very poor. I tell her the smart ones have better jobs than painter or assistant to a builder.

one more thought- are you hiring the guys who gave you the lowest bid on getting the work done?

i've found that you often get exactly what you pay for. you want pros, you will have to pay for pros. you hire cheap, you will get cheap.

Verbal agreements are pretty much worthless.
They may be lousy workers but why are you paying them before you inspect their work?

The best doctors don't settle in the boondocks.

The best contractors go where the most business is, not out in the hills and hollars.

When I wanted to build my barn, I contacted several contractors from the yellow pages. I wanted the 66 by 100 area squared up and places marked for the holes for trhe 6x6 posts. Then, I was to drill the post holes and then he's set, line up the posts and pour the concrete into the holes.

I should have known I was in trouble when he showed up with a rented transit and a helper with a local Tavern logo in his shirt.

Took him two days just to lay out the rectangle and mark where the holes go. I drilled the seventy five holes, three rows, 5 foot centers and a row of 10 foot centers. I laid out the fourty 6x6 treated posts, 24 feet long and the rest were 4x6 treated posts. I set the posts into their holes so he could align them and pour the concrete.

He set about a dozen and took a few days off for the local Music Fest. I took my tape out and discovered the posts were not on 5 foot centers. They varied from 56 inches to 64. I ran a string line, discovered that some posts were in too far, some out too far. I measured several inches difference. All in concrete.

When he returned, I told him I'd help him pull the posts and start over, but I wouldn't pay for the time he spent doing it wrong or he could just leave. He left. I finished the job.

After a chimney fire, I needed a new chimney. This is a 40 feet tall chimney that riuns through the center of the house. I got a couple $3000 estimates. A friend recommended a union brick mason. I removed the entire brick chimney, mortor and liner. I bought the blocks and liner, placing them in the basement, kitchen, bedroom and attic. I called the Unin Office and got a few names of local journymen. One guy was available and wanted to have his own helper to mix mortor. I checked and he had laid blocks for 20 years.

First thing, he didn't want to put in a cleanout door. After my insistance, I discovered he didn't have a saw to cut the block for the cleanout door. Instead of cutting an opening in the liner, he set big nails into the mortor, with the nail heads sticking into the chimney, creating a ledge for the liner to sit on. The 12 year bold boy he brought as a helper, couldn't keep up. I was there, so I set each block as he was ready to put it in place. He leveled it, scraped the mortor and I set the next one. I helped mix mortor so he wouldn't run out. He left a mess in each room. By the time we got onto the roof, he was slinging mortor out across the shingles, I told him we were done, I'd finish it from there.

If this guy was bricking up the side of a school or a Walmart, I think he'd be fine. But as a bricklayer, he lacked the ability to figure things out.

I learned how to do stuff for myself and others. I now have a Contractor's license. No good contractor would start a job without a written agreement that spells everything out. Every change that comes along, and there are always add ons or changes, must be written down and signed by both parties.

I am for certain no expert, but I can share some things I learned from experience, the hard way!

*Never do anything with another human, family or not, without a written contract BEFORE the job is even started. Do not allow a nail a board or a drop of sweat be wasted on a project involving other people without a written contract. Ever....for anything.

*Check around, ask around and try to find someone that people you know have used and would use again. I even through out names, Well Bob Moss, a good friend of mine, said you guys do a good job and would not screw me over so I figured I would check you out. This lets them know you did check them out and if they mess up, they will not only lose you as a customer, but potentially lose someone else as well. I sometimes say, "well a LOT of people I know personally suggested you so I figured you must have a good reputation and would like to continue that so I chose you over a few others".

*Never pay 100% up front. Tell them you have had bad experiences in the past and you will be willing to pay up to 75% up front, or the cost of materials or whatever, and will post date a check or hold a check for the remainder until the work is completed.

*Ask that a supervisor come and sign off on the job when they claim they are finished and before you release the final check.

*Try to use older people. Sorry if this offends anyone but I have found that older people tend to care more about the quality of their work that a large percentage of younger people do. I know an old man that is a dear friend, almost 80 years old. When I need help with something, I call on him, even though I know it may take longer to get the job done...because I know when it is done it will be done right or he will not leave it until it is right.

*Lastly....trust no one. Ever. Constantly check up on them, constantly review the contract, constantly remind them of the contract and be a tough customer. Yeah you may get on their nerves, but it is your money, your home, your life and your future....they are paid for their service and you should not be forced to suffer because of their incompetence.

We had our house built ten years ago by a young local man and all that passed for a contract was a scrap of paper with the price he would do it for and we had no problems whatsoever. We paid as the work was completed. We learned our lesson in MD when the contractor didn't pay his subs and they came calling on us demanding money. Luckily there was enough in the last draw to pay all the sub-contractors that weren't paid.

Nothing wrong with hiring good ole boys, you just have to sort them out a bit, and then train them to do what it is you want them to do. You've got to get the boys that will meet you at the job site at 8AM or earlier--the others want to hang around the diner shooting deer, teasing Louise, and joking with all the third cuppa coffee buddies. The serious ones will get out of there, gas up the equipment, sharpen the saws, and get out on the job.

When you first meet them to set up the "contract", written or verbal, you have to meet them with a notebook and pen in hand, and then write down what you understand they will do, and how much you'll be paying. If your eyes glaze over when they talk, they will do a "job" to their own satisfaction--which may or may not be yours. If you pay cheap, you'll get cheap, both in price, and in quality.

Then, you have to develop the knack of visiting(but not pestering) them while they work--asking questions, paying some(not too many) compliments, and listening to their suggestions--and being patient enough to not make too many complaints at one time. If you work with people each day, you can usually resolve the questions that turn into complaints later on. Getting good quality is as much a job of you working with them as them working with you. And you have to have a skill at showing up at just a little before they finish the job--they will be expecting payment--then is the time to ask about the backfill, the missing trim piece, etc, etc---oh, yes, sir(or ma'am), we'll get right on that.

The nice thing about most good ole boys is that if you have complaints or questions you can always find the bad ones at 9AM each day at the diner.

The way I see it I made several mistakes. The biggest was not meeting them at the site with the payment and with holding payment until the job was done to my satisfaction. However, I DID ask the locals who they would reccomend.I asked at city hall,I asked at the grocery store, and I asked at a local building supply company.
As far as expecting dozer work to include dump trucks etc.. All i asked is that they push the stumps into a pile..which they did, and backfill the trench which i feel they did,,,KINDA and marginally./ I did not hire these folks because they were cheapest.I hired them because they came reccomended and I had no idea who did that kind of work. Jim, I meant no dis respect to Tn workers. The heading should have read..I have found eveyone I hire in TN does shabby work. But I am sure JIm and some others do good.
The point of my post was to see if others would accept 1,000 feet of trench with perhaps 1/2 needing to be re filled. If I should call the guys and request they go finish the job,or should I just grab a shovel and start pushing. since I have never had this kind of work done before I just wanted to see if my expectations were unrealistic.Now I have come to realize,thanks to this site, it isn't their shabby workmanship at all...it is my unmrealistic expectations and my subconscious hatred of tn that are at fault.

"*Lastly....trust no one. Ever. Constantly check up on them, constantly review the contract, constantly remind them of the contract and be a tough customer. Yeah you may get on their nerves, but it is your money, your home, your life and your future....they are paid for their service and you should not be forced to suffer because of their incompetence."

I'm pretty sure that I know where you are coming from FB, and you are on the right track, but that isn't quite accurate. You HAVE to trust when you are outside of your area of general competence. You pay in large part for the competence of any professional. If you hire an architect you have to trust that he understands the materials and various codes. The trick is to trust only to the amount you can afford and not make any wild gambles.

I hired a local mason to do the underskirting of our place. He had a price per block he wanted to charge, and had a reasonable reputation. I bought the materials and he built. When he finished, and I was satisfied that what he had done looked good, he told me how many blocks he had laid and asked if I wanted to verify. I already knew about how many blocks I had bought and it was obvious he hadn't wasted even 5%, so it was easy for me to trust him and just pay what he had figured. Part of WHY he did a good job was that he knew he was trusted and enjoyed living up to that.

Before that, when the footings to the home were done, I didn't know the contractor doing the work that well, so I stayed at the job site to verify that shortcuts weren't being taken. I tightened my trust to my own comfort level. I ended up being satisfied with the job, but the difference in attitude of the workers was apparent.

I've a neighbor who I told that I was looking for a 4' bush hog but didn't have a lot of money to spend, and after a few months of his watching my fields get overgrown, he took me to a place that had new bush hogs, and a yard with a few old discarded bits of equipment. He took a liking to what I thought was a piece of junk, and I flat out told him I was out of my depth and didn't know anything on the subject. The store owner found a wheel and driveshaft for it, and I bought it just on my neighbor's say-so. I just had to put total trust in his judgment.

Once we got it back, the two of us spent a couple of days unwinding and cutting old wire wrapped around the blades, and he welded up stabilizers, fixed the lift arm on my tractor, made everything fit and level, and showed me the basics. I could have come out on the short end of the stick if he hadn't known what he was doing, but as it ended up I came out with a bush hog that is FAR more heavy duty that the newer models, at a cost that is less than half of what I would have otherwise paid. It was a joy learning and watching him.

Sometimes you have to trust. If you do right by folks it often comes back. The point is to know when and how much.

LOL I have to laugh at someone with this attitude thats on THIS SITE. Yep Haypoint you have pretty much insulted nearly everyone on this site. Im among the best in the world at what I do and I live in the sticks!
The best contracters go where they please. Things besides MONEY help make their choices. MOREOVER the best contracters can make good money ANYWHERE they go simply because quality is always in demand.

If your not one of the good old boys dont expect to be treated well by them.FRomw what Ive seen here it would seem that the OP is acting like a babe in the woods and the wolves have been having a feast....GROW TEETH!

You've gotten a lot of good suggestions. I usually ask some of my neighbors to recommend contractors when I need to hire one.