Backyard Aquaculture/Fish Farming

I've been reading through this link, seems like there's a lot of good "simple" answers to all the basic questions. Best temp's, humidity, etc....

http://www.simplyhydro.com/simply's_q_&_a.htm

Lettuce to start off with has many things going for it:

1. It is a short keeper. You can keep potatoes, squash, or yams in boxes over the winter, you can can your beans and corn, and freeze your broccoli and cauliflower, but you can't store lettuce except by radiation. This means lettuce is always in demand.

2. It is an easy grower. It's difficult to kill lettuce.

3. It is a low nutrient puller. Lettuce requires about a quarter of the nutrients needed to get a tomato plant to bloom.

4. It is a fast grower. You can harvest lettuce in just a few weeks. This means a high turnover rate on crops.

5. It is a low light crop and doesn't require the intensity of light that many other crops do. Realize that when it comes to 'ponic gardening of any sort, LIGHTS are the biggest cost factors, especially in winter. Those 1000 watt High pressure sodiums are not cheap to buy, not cheap to run, and not cheap to replace bulbs for...however, if you are wanting a decent crop of squash or cucumbers in March, they ARE necessary. Most crops are photosensitive, and they are not going to fruit no matter HOW much you beg them until they are getting 16-18 hours of light per day.

Other crops good for starting out are:

Other greens crops, mustard, turnip, spinach, etc.
Cabbage family
Radishes
Most herbs

I keep a small unit that has no other purpose but to provide herbs for my kitchen.

When doing 'ponics and trying to keep it cheap, try to keep with the seasons. It's very nice to have fresh tomatoes in January, but they COST. Anything that the food part is the fruit or the flower is going to cost you in energy to grow in the late fall, winter, or early spring months because you will have to supplement the light cycle to get them to bloom. You may have the greenhouse set at 78 degrees, but they know the difference, and they are not budging 'til they see some summertime light.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Have you tried any of the L.E.D. lighting? One of the up-sides to living around a bunch of surfers is sooner or later you will meet someone who grows something they don't want sitting out on their patio. So I get the benefit of learning what they use for their indoor set-up's. Not that I want to use it for the same thing, just saying.

Most of the systems I've seen using the new L.E.D.s seem to be working very well, and without all the heat or high energy usage. Now here's a dumb newbie question, do you need different types of lights for different plants? So what works well for say these surfers might not work well for say Tomatoes or Lettuce?

If you want to see a basic list of what I am looking at growing see my thread about "worth the effort or not" Not worth the effort / cost?

Thanks,

SirDude

Went looking for answers to my own questions about LED lights and 'ponics and came across this interesting news / article from an Aeroponic company.

http://www.aerofarms.com/2010/03/new...nics-industry/

LED lighting is good for vegetative phase of vegetables, but when it comes to flowering and fruiting phase, when plants are putting a load of energy into production, they do not make the grade.

The problem comes to the loss of energy in conversion to light.

To approximate sunlight, you need to have lights that are putting 3000-8000 lumens at the top of the plants. We'll use an average of 5000 lumens for the purpose of this post. (Natural sunlight is around 10,000 lumens)

With your average incandescent light bulb, you are getting between 25-35 lumens per watt. And it looses energy by putting off a lot of heat. (I'll mention heat burn and light loss from distance later)
With your average fluorescent tube light bulb, you get a about 60-80 lumens per watt.
CFL, approximately 50-65 lumens per watt.
LED, about 70-95 lumens per watt.
Metal Halide, approximately 110 lumens per watt.
High Pressure Sodium, you get about 120 lumens per watt.

Most of these bulbs can be phosphor coated to the spectrum of your choice. There are special bulbs now JUST for each phase of plant growth, and some coated for the particular light spectrum use of certain plants. Therefore, you *can* ensure that they are using every watt of light you are giving them.

Now, let's go to burn and what you loose.

For every foot away from the plants you place the source of light, the lumens are reduced by square. At 1 foot, they are getting everything your lights are putting out. At 2 ft., divide your lumens by 4 and that is what your plants are getting. At 4 ft., divide by 16, and so on.

So you would think that you'd want to put your lights right on top of your plants, right?

Nope. The less efficient a light is, the more heat it puts off. Therefore, you can place, say, a T8 H.O. fluorescent tube inches away from your plants (High output gives about 90-100 lumens per watt), while that incandescent bulb you'd have to put a foot or more away from your plants to keep from frying the leaves with heat.

But, we haven't even looked at the SIZE of the lights you'll need to have. Let's go with the best you can get...a high pressure, high output, phosphor coated sodium. Top of the line, and giving you 200 lumens per watt.

We want to give our heritage Ox heart tomato plant 5000 lumens to give us some nice, beefy tomatoes. However, those sodiums run pretty hot, and minimum safe distance is 48 inches. So:

200 divided by 4 = 50. 5000 divided by 50 = 100 So that is 100 watts right there for that tomato plant.

But what about lateral distance? Well, that depends upon what kind of fixture that bulb is in...however, for right now, lets say that 100 watts will do it for your plant.

So, your winter tomato. You have a good 10 hours of decent sunlight, so you need to supplement 6-8 hours per day. Let's split the difference and say 7 hours.

That is 700 watts per day, or 21,000 watts per month, over your three month growth cycle (depending upon your tomato plant, 2 months from seedling to fruit, another month of fruit production). You have used 63,000 watts, or 63 kWH, to get a tomato.

Where I live, power is costing about $0.11 a kWH, that is $6.93 per plant. If you get 20 tomatoes from that plant, it comes out to $0.35 per tomato just in the cost of light.

Not nutrients, water, cost of running pumps, aerators, etc. JUST light. And that is JUST mimicking summer conditions. If you want to fast-grow, you leave those lights on all night...but then again, you are still paying approximately the same costs if you finish harvesting in 2 months instead of three by extending the day time light cycle.

Now, most of the time, you don't need different types of lights for different plants...after all, they all evolved (or were created, depending upon your beliefs) to utilize the spectrum we get from our Sun in the most efficient way they can. Therefore, approximating natural sunlight is the safest bet.

However, you do need different spectrums for different phases in the plant's cycle. Most plants do most of their vegetative growth in Spring, while the sun's light is going through more atmospheres to reach the soil. This means that the spectrum is higher in blues, and lower in reds, as atmospheres tend to block reds more. In mid summer, when most plants are flowering and fruiting, light has to go through fewer atmospheres, resulting in more red light. Therefore, when plants are in their flowering and fruiting cycle, they need more red light than when they are in their growth and vegetative cycle.

And there is much, much more. However, i think this has already reached brochure length, no need to go to novel length.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

WOW, I guess I am going to need to ask for a lot of PV panels and Batteries for Christmas! 21 kWH per month, per plant? If that's the case, and I'm going to need that big of a PV system, I might want to be grid-tide someplace and sell the solar / electric back in the summer months and maybe have a net-zero bill in the winter???

Between PV rebates, etc, I maybe better off doing this in a small town warehouse like a think Navotifarm suggested. Not sure how to get around having animals, but this might not be a bad deal.

How/where did you learn about growing with lights? Good book, website or training/schooling? Since I was thinking about going back to college, I did a quick search for classes in some of the areas / schools I was thinking about go to. Not a lot on 'ponics that is listed. That's how I keep coming up with all the Weed growing sites. I see ten of those sites for every one or so that has good Hydro / Aeroponic information.


Since the HPS bulbs put out so much heat and use so much energy, and I'm sure cost a pretty penny, could you use multiples of the other style bulbs?

I thought that's what made the LED's so great was the less heat (and less energy use/longer life) so you should be able to put them closer, gaining some of that light back, right?

Not sure how the light is focused, but even if you needed to use two LED's to get you over the 120 lumens, having 140 - 190 lumens should still be less heat and could cover two sides of the plant??? I know LED's are not cheap, but the savings in electric would make up for that cost.

One upside I see to using the HPS bulbs is you wouldn't need to heat the place in the winter-time. Maybe just the water. I think I read ideal water temp is 72 degrees and air temp is 75-80???

I think I want to build this type of system more to play with the tools and engineer the system! LOL This has my mind cranking. But like you, I will stop here and give you and other's a chance. We might need to start a new thread for just lighting???? I know I would love to hear more.

Thanks for sharing.

SirDude

Fun little link / project I just came across. They say start on the small scale. Don't get much small. LOL

growingedge.com/fish-bowl-farm-diy-aquaponics

Some Goldfish, a jar and a plant. Maybe something for the kids to do. Or maybe a use for the Goldfish the kids stopped taking care of?!

~chuckles~ A lot of people, whether they are growing indoors for herbs, veggies, or...umm...other plants get caught up in an idea so they tend to not grasp the concept.

LEDs will not save you in electricity because they are not efficient.

At its very best, a 120V, screw based LED lamp will give you 93 lumens *per watt*. NOT per bulb, but per watt that you put into it.

At its very best, the very latest in HPS, will give you 200 lumens *per watt*.

Plants don't eat watts, they eat lumens. No matter how many LEDs you put over the plant, they are still only giving you 93 lumens for each watt of power you put into them.

While the HPS will give you 200 lumens for every watt of power your put into them.

Think of it like mpg on a car. The LEDs are giving you 93 miles per gallon; the HPS is giving you 200 miles per gallon. Which one do you want to drive?

"Gardening Indoors" by Van Patten is a great place to start. He has a section devoted to lighting, complete with all of the mathematical formulas.

Bulbs nowadays have the lumen rating on them, so you can figure out how many lumens per watt you are getting. I.E. an 8 ft, 40 watt T-12 tube has a rating on the end that says "3,500 lumens". So, divide 3,500 by 40 to get the number of lumens per watt, then divide that number by how many feet the tube is. [3500 divided by 40] /8 = 10.9 lumens per watt. (Mythical numbers, most T12 tubes put out over 10,000 lumens)

Color index ratings on the bulbs tell you the spectrum.

As for LEDs not being cheap, well, neither are HPS's. Initial output on the cost of lighting is simply going to give you heart failure...just have your nitro pills handy.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Thank you, that make more sense. So it works out to about 2.15 watts used for the "screw type LED" to do the same work as the HPS.

I don't want to come across as I'm arguing with you or don't trust what you are says, I just need to be able to understand things for myself. Can't always have people handy when buying something you don't understand.

Part of the point I was looking at with the cost of LED VS HPS lights is;
1. I have always heard how much more efficient they are.
2. How long they last compared to a HPS, I hear average life of a LED grow lamp is 10 years, and the HPS is around 2 years if both are on 24/7.

So that's how I came up with the "put more bulbs on it" idea.

While you were writing this out, I was reading some information at http://www.led-grow-master.com/LED_Plant_Light.html

At the bottom of that page is what came to mind when I started adding up the watts per month per tomato plant as in your example. The cost of the larger PV system, and the replacement bulbs, extra heat/cooling, etc all added up and the only thing I have heard about with grow lights is all the great things about LEDs, but nothing to compare them too.

Thank you again for taking the time to explain all this.

SirDude

One other thing about the color spectrum needed. Do most plants need the same colors? I know all plants live and grown under the sun, so they all get the same colors, but since you brought up the fact about the different stages of growth and what colors help promote each stage, I thought I would ask.

Makes sense about the colors being different from spring to summer. It's why I like the sunsets here in FL. Not an expert by any means, but understand why makes the sunset better colors from one day to the next.

Thanks,

SirDude

Costs of replacements are going to be high, and you are completely right that an LED or fluorescent bulb is going to last longer than an HPS or Metal Halide.

Not only that, but the LED or fluorescent bulb will keep a stable number of lumens over that time period, where-as both the HPS and the Metal Halide will become inefficient.

If I recall right, an HPS bulb is actually ONLY good for six months, before it starts loosing lumens and becoming inefficient. Whereas LEDs will last years at a stable lumen output.

You have to weigh it all out. I did a LOT of math when I was first starting out with all of this, until my head rang with equations for this and that.

First, you are going to have to calculate just how many of those LED bulbs you are going to need to cover the same area as an HPS. ONE of my 1000 watt HPS lamps covers a 100 sq. foot area and puts 3000 lumens on the floor, and 5000 lumens at plant height. Part of the reason for this is well made reflectors than reflect light that would have hit the ceiling and direct it to the plants, as well as reflective screens, that redirect light that would have gone through glass or walls back to the plants.

Light is expensive, and you don't want to waste even a little bit of it.

To get the same intensity of light over the same space using fluorescents, I would need 2 High Bay fixtures running 8 165watt H.O. T-8 bulbs each. Making it a 2,640 watt lighting system. This is mainly because you simply cannot get truly efficient fixtures for fluorescents, and therefore you lose a lot of light.

So far, the fixtures I have seen for running LEDs have been woefully underpowered, inefficient, and inadequate. They are good for very young seedlings or lettuce, but not much else. This is because LEDS have very small bulbs, and it would be nearly impossible to build a fixture that reflects wasted light from those tiny bulbs in the proper direction. Also, each bulb only puts out a small amount of lumens. You would have to, basically, stud the ceiling of your greenhouse with them, using one bulb every square inch, to get the proper amount of light intensity to your plants. If you do that, then how is sunlight going to get through to your plants during the day?

But there is also theory verses practice. LEDs LOOK *so* good on paper...to the point that the hydro- and aero- folks around here were just SALIVATING to get there hands on some.

The proof was in the plants. ~shrugs~ Several folks from several hydro stores did comparisons. Plants just did not grow as well or fruit as heavily under LEDs as they did under other lighting systems. Nor did light from LEDs "penetrate" as well as light from other sources, as tested by light meters.

That is something I cannot explain, because light should be light, should be light...but there was no denying the fact that light from LEDs degraded faster than light from HPS. As in, at the TOP of plant height, the meter might read 5000 lumens for both types of lamps....but at mid-plant level, the HPS would read 4000 lumens, while the LED would read 2500 lumens.

I don't know why, but that is how it came out in real use. Plants did not grow as well, or fruit as heavily, and lumens degraded quicker through air using LEDs. ~shrugs~

However, those of us that do 'ponics are optimistic that in 5 or so years, once the technology improves, LEDs will be the way to go.

Now, on color. Spectrum on bulbs is measured in heat...kelvin to be specific. Rule of thumb: For the growing, vegetative cycle, use 5000-7500k lamps. (I use 6500k) For flowering and fruiting, use 2500-3000k lamps.

Oh, and I don't think you are arguing with me, that is why I explained it differently. Some people will grasp a concept better when explained in one way, while others will grasp a concept better when explained a different way. I simply had not explained the concept in a way that was easy for you to grasp, so I explained it a different way.

~smiles~ You are going to have to work MUCH harder than just asking me thoughtful questions to offend me.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

This is pretty much the same info I was reading, a "sharp decline" in the first six months and a lifespan of about 2 years. The spec's on LEDs say they are good for about 10 -15 years and only start to decline at the very end.



From what I was reading, the LED people do admit there is a difference, and even say it's pretty hard to compare apples to apples.

What turned me onto the whole Aeroponics was hearing a news story about NASA's involvement with it. So I'm wondering how much of this distance from the plant has to do with them needing a compact aeroponic set-up for outer space?

Here's one "rule of thumb" I saw from an LED site.

20 LEDsticks for the lettuce would cost around $5200 by their calculations and $10,660 for the tomatoes/ pepper plants. I figured this by their cost of around $260/LEDstick. HPS lights, you say cover about 100 sq ft, so that's ten lights, for the same area.

Some things I noticed from this companies pictures, (above link) is that they have their lights set up in a greenhouse, so in a effect they would be getting some help from the sun and not relying on the LED's 100%. Like some set-ups like this -->

The reason I bring this up is for a couple of reasons.

1. If I start out with say an old run-down warehouse somewhere I would be looking at getting all / most of my light from an artificial light source. Think a couple of tomatoes, some lettuce, etc, enough for one person while getting this all figured out. Start small, right???
2. If I ended up somewhere with a rainy, cloudy, dark winter, then again I would need the lighting most of the time. I would rather have it, and not need it all, all the time, then to not have enough.

Is a dark warehouse / barn not a practical set-up? Not saying a want to do the urban homesteading thing, but I see some great deals from time to time on small warehouse in smaller towns. So I got to thinking, not only is it cheaper then some of the land I was looking at, but it has a building, water, and is closer to towns if I did end up having enough to want to sell. Not my first / main goal.

I did read about this too. I'm not totally sure who or what is driving the development of LEDs, but if it is NASA or some the Asian designers who talk about building sky-scrapers but with crops on each floor instead of condos, then neither of them I think mind that 10 feet away the light is useless.

I too am very optimistic about all of this. As long as the Government doesn't some how determine that the LED lights are unsafe for growing, I think NASA will need to keep pushing for the development of these lights and different 'ponic systems. Since I live down in FL I always seems to hear some kind of talk on the TV about what NASA is doing, this is what turned my onto the Aeroponics. I would have been happy just doing Hydroponics or Aquaculture.

Very happy to hear that me questioning this system is not offending your thinking, etc. I'm use to a lot of people with the "my way or the highway" mentality lately.

Thanks,

SirDude

I got into Aeroponics after seeing a show on the Green Channel about it. My scientific mind said, "I just HAVE to see if I can do that!"

So, I build one little, homemade unit out of a big tupperware tub, some spare PVC, and some micro-sprayers for misting systems. Hauled myself down to the nearest 'ponics supply and picked up nutrients and such.

2 years later, I am wiser about all of it.

However, if you want to "start small", that is the way to do it. I kept that little unit set up on an aquarium stand in my living room. Started out doing lettuce, parsley and basil...learned about nursery plants and the stuff they can introduce to your system, bacteria, what happens when you try to go organic with it, etc., etc.

Learned about lights when I tried to do bush bean plants. You should have SEEN them stretch under that little aquarium light I had been attempting to grow lettuce under! ~laughs~

Okay, back to lights. My HPS lamps, with ballasts, reflectors, etc., cost me about $400 each. That is retail. Now, I see good deals on lamps and set-ups on craigslist all the time....realize that Colorado is an MMJ state. Lots of people get into growing MMJ, thinking they are going to make TONS of money selling to dispensaries here, and then find out that it is NOT easy to grow that stuff. Then they get disappointed and sell all of their equipment on craigslist.

(People get into growing that stuff, lose their first crop to spider mites, second crop to nutrient lock, third crop to nutrient deficiency, fourth crop goes to seed, and finally realize that there is a reason it has taken those hippies 20-30 years to grow it indoors right.)

People like me, if I want to add more growing space or whatever, buy it at half the cost.

I would NOT grow in a warehouse. Again, lighting is the most expensive part of 'ponic growing. In summer, you WANT to take advantage of all of that free light the sun is giving. It makes NO sense to get solar panels to take sunlight, convert it into electricity (while loosing 80-85% of the energy in that conversion), just to convert it BACK into light and put it over your plants at less than a third of the intensity.

(You might consider renting a warehouse *roof* for the summer, though.)

You should ONLY use supplementary lighting when you *can't* get enough sunlight.

They have some nice, roomy, inexpensive greenhouses nowadays. I have found them as cheap as $10k for a 30 x 90. 2700 sq ft. should be PLENTY for you to grow enough for you own use and have PLENTY of surplus left over to sell to others.

Plus, there are plenty of plans for building your own. If you are ONLY going for home use, you really don't need a lot of space to keep you in fresh veggies over the winter. Realize that even in winter, you will only be growing things that you CAN'T preserve very well from your summer gardens. Why would you grow winter squash in 'ponics when there is a half a ton in your cellar? Why would you grow broccoli in 'ponics when you have a bunch in your freezer?

So what you would likely be growing is stuff that is not easily preserved by common methods in a semi-fresh form. Tomatoes, for instance, pretty much have to be processed in order to preserve them. Cucumbers cannot be preserved as cucumbers...you have to turn them into pickles and whatnot.

That narrows down the things that you might feel you need to grow during the winter in a 'ponics system....and it basically comes down to: stuff you would not be surprised to see in a salad.

Tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, greens, cabbage, celery, radishes, herbs, etc.

Of those, the tomatoes and cucumbers I would START in a 'ponics system, until they were well leafed out, then I would transplant them into one of those topsy-turvy upside-down planters hanging on the edges of my greenhouse. That way, they could have the extra light that I am putting over my 'ponics system, but not take up room in that system.

Anything that vines is a pain in the donkey to grow in 'ponics, because of how much room those vines take up.

'Ponics can be VERY useful to *supplement* regular homestead gardens...but they are too energy intensive and cash intensive (those nutrients aren't cheap!) to be used as the ONLY gardens.

Speaking of nutrients, I use the House and Garden line. Their "roots excelurator" is THE BOMB...and remember when I was saying they are not cheap? 250 ml goes for $60. If I have to replace the whole line-up that I use, (They do tend to last through a few cycles of growth) I can easily spend $400.

Yet, even with that, I have been looking into homemade "green mats" for my goats during the winter. I am thinking of using burlap and seeding it with alfalfa, white clover, and bluegrass. If I am going to run lights anyway, males sense...seed a mat, let it grow two weeks, feed to goats. Get a rotation going so they have a fresh forage mat every evening through the winter.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Has anyone mentioned Barrel-Ponics, yet?

There are videos online, too.

__________________
homely |ˈhōmlē| (adjective) Simple but cozy and comfortable, as in one's own home.

That's a hoot, I know there was all kinds of talk by me when that show "MJ Inc" ran on MSNBC. One of the painters (go figure LOL) I employ from time to time, saw that I used those "Earthboxes" to grow my lettuce. The next thing you know he has four boxes and some LEDs glowing in his spare bedroom.

He took care of the bug problems and from what I hear / saw, they do pretty well.LOL I wouldn't know, I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, heck, I can't stand taking meds. LOL But hey, more power to him if he can make it work.

Good point, I got so focused on so many other angles of looking for property, and going off the grid, that point did slip my mind. Plus, I was under the impression that LED's were low-wattage and efficient. So as I added to my PV system I could add to my crop. Guess it's back to the ole drawing-board.

Plus it also slipped my mind on the taxes, since now my general area has been narrowed down, and a lot of the areas that had cheap warehouses / cheap taxes are farther down my list now.

Do you know if CO in general taxes greenhouses in anyway?

This is a point that I wasn't really taking into account before I joined this forum. I was researching cheap starter land, how to build shelter (since that's my natural skills) and alternative energy. The Food part of this is all freshly added to the mix. I guess I will have to go way back to the drawing-board. LOL

That hurts! LOL I'm really not liking the idea of having both a soil and a 'ponic garden. I can understand changing the plans to use a greenhouse (instead of a warehouse) and rely on the sun for most of the plant's lighting. But after all the talk about soil, etc in my first threads, I was wiping the need for *a lot* of good soil off my list of things my "land" needed. In it's place I was going with the thought of a better solar zone and just plan on growing everything in a controlled environment.

OK, since you are busting all my bubbles today, this might be a good time to share my master plan. (so far) LOL I am going to start a fresh thread with my current "plan" or thoughts so more people with chime in. I think we this place long enough.

Have you thought about doing a thread all on lighting? You could cut and paste most of the info from here. LOL

SirDude

Does anyone know if those mylar light tubes reduce the energy or wavelengths of the sunlight?

__________________
"Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?" Hobbs
"I'm not sure that man needs the help." Calvin

Can't say about the wavelengths, but I have seen prototype PV or Solar water heater systems that are being designed for third-world countries, that are low-cost, easy to transport, etc, that uses Mylar to focus the sun light just like those big solar generating fields in desert. Curved something like in this picture.

BTW Fishhead, are you thinking about building some kind of solar oven/cooker right at the end of your fish pond?

No. I closed the farm for good last fall.

There are large tubes made with mylar coating inside that is used to pipe sunlight just like a water pipe.

__________________
"Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?" Hobbs
"I'm not sure that man needs the help." Calvin

You're just talking about the mylar solar tubes used as a sky-light with the "shade" mount for the ceiling, right?

If you were thinking about something for Aquacponics, you might want to look at this page, or call them, maybe they will have all the spec's.

http://www.mylarstoreonline.com/whyusemylar.html