Should I shoot my dog?

Sounds like a typical LGD to me. My GP's were the same way. They would not allow the goats in their food. My male would grab a goat by the fur on the back of its neck until the goat took off. He never left a mark on them. They recognize baby animals as babies. One day when mine were about a year old, I saw one of the dogs carrying a newborn goat in its mouth and I about freaked out thinking he had killed it. He carried it over to its mother and gently put it down by her. Mom had went to eat and left the baby alone. LGD's think their job is to patrol the world and they will roam far and wide if they get out. A secure fence is a must and usually requires a hotwire. Mine only hit the wire twice that I know of and never tried to climb out again. My fence charger burned out about 5 years before the dogs died and I never replaced it. The dogs still respected the wire.

__________________
Dear Math, it is time you grew up and solved your own problems.

Thanks, Stan, for the link. That looks like it will be hugely helpful.

Mama Crow, no offense taken. I just wanted to clarify that I do understand the alpha struggle and this encounter seemed to go above and beyond that. That's why it had me worried.

Joshie, I do feel it is a life and death matter all the way around. Life and death for my livestock if she doesn't do her job. Life and death for other people and animals that come to our property if she cannot be properly controlled. That is why I was willing to shoot her instead of letting it escalate.

Poppy, thanks for the anecdote. I really don't think she was trying to hurt the baby rabbits. And she hasn't left a mark on the livestock either, just lets them know this is her food. She is not food aggressive toward humans, so I'm willing to let that one slide for now.

I wouldn't put up with that food aggression for one minute.

I'd wire the dog up with a shock collar, then have every animal and child in the homestead walk right by the dog while it had a food bowl heaped with stewing beef. If she so much as looked at them the wrong way I'd smoke the dog with the collar, longer each time it happened.

My 2yo kids can take away the dogs food. I have large and powerful German Shepherds. Food aggression is a failure on the dog's part to realize who is Alpha. Pain is a great enforcer.

Pete

I have a herding breed, and every time I've tried to integrate older dogs into the pack I've had problems somehow, so now I start with puppies only. Its a lot less stressful and keeps me from the inevitable rehoming I've had to do with older dogs that just couldn't quite fit in. In your place I would shoot her if I could not keep her, as I would not want to pass an aggressive dog onto someone esle. Its not cruel or wrong, its being responsible, and we're talking about a working dog, which should be viewed as a tool or on the same level as livestock. You've gotten some great advice as to how to work thru her problems, I hope you can turn the situation around, but if you can't don't feel guilty if you decide to dispatch her and not pass her to someone esle. Good Luck.

I'm sorry to hear about your delema. We had a similar situation when our Pyrenese attacked our house dog several times, the last time right in front of us.

I may get a lot of flack for saying that we did, indeed, put him down because of it & it was not a decision taken lightly; we still have trouble talking about it and it's been over a year.

Our reasoning for not just adopting him out was because I would definately NOT want this dog to do any harm to someone else's pets or family members. Especially when you are not 100% certain where the dog will eventually end up. And, maybe by nobody's fault, but what if the dog's history was not passed onto the new owner? I would feel horrible if the dog, god forbid, did something bad to another animal / person.

Another thing that I found strange was that a friend of mine bought a Pyr puppy from the same breeder we did, but about 2 years later & they had to put it down also because it was attacking & almost killed their goat kids.

Some dangerous dogs just cannot be trusted. Others can be rehabbed, but it is a very risky proposition if you asked me.

__________________
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

No Pearl should not be put down. What I'm reading is normal behavior for a good lgd. If she were closer I, too, would take her in a heartbeat.

LGD's, G. Pyrs in particular, are known wanderers. Some stay closer, others are patrollers. The electric fence suggestion is the best way to deal with that.

If Pearl was on a killing spree with the rabbits, they'd all have been dead. Something happened that you are not aware of-perhaps a weasel or other predator, maybe even the mother spazing out, after all, wasn't she found licking the kit? Isn't that protective behavior? We've had rabbits before, they aren't above killing their own kits or other rabbits coming near their kits even.

As far as your other dog is concerned, it is recommended they not be allowed with the LGD's for this very reason. Since yours are allowed together, alpha status must be determined and someone will get hurt. I would imagine Pearl knows your dog belongs to you (but not with the livestock), and if she was submissive I would think Pearl would have just held her there without hurting her. Since your dog put up a fight, well, a fight ensued, after all both were hurt. Keep your housedog were she belongs-at the house. How is Pearl with the other LGD?

Food aggression is considered common for lgd's. Get her & your other lgd a jumpbox & feed them inside, free choice feed in a covered barrel. Having to worry about the next time she'll eat only adds to the aggression. They'll take turns when the other is sleeping if need be. As far as Pearl attacking the livestock when they come near, remember that if she WANTED to hurt them, she is more than capable of doing so, and would have. One of my lgd's will let goats eat her food, but the muscovies fly into the jump box & eat the dog food-she chases them out & I felt certain one would die with all the ruckus & commotion-alas not one feather has been out of place. LOTS of bluff & wet feathers, but she doesn't actually hurt them.

As for attacking for no reason, I'll bet there is/was a bone or something she had stashed, or as others have said she's just establishing her alpha status.

Overall she sounds like a good dog, one who takes her job seriously.

PLEASE, find her a working home. She doesn't deserve to be put down. You've admitted you don't trust her, so already she's on her way out. There's a good working home for her out there somewhere, one where the owners understand the breed & how to handle it.
HappyFarmer

p.s. In a situation like this you should be asking opinions & solutions from lgd owners. lgd's are much different than the normal housedog, as they have to be to perform their duties. The workinglgd yahoo group suggested is a fantastic list. I highly recommend it.

I dont know enough about the working environment for LGD so I wont coment, however the situatio between her and the house dog is apparant to me. She is obvioulsy an Alpha and you have not correctly introduced her to the house dog. That is a dog who is old and creeky hence a liability in her eyes to the pack. She also has access to the house but not really interacts with the working environment except when she wants to. So the LGD is either attempting to put her in her place or take out a liability. She is doing what instinct tells her to do.This is why when I get my own homestead I will have working dogs, no house pets too many times as a kid I saw th ehouse dog get chewed up by the working dogs. You can either attmept to remove the tension between the two by working thru it or just ensure the two never meet.

__________________
Do not Lead for I will Not Follow
Do not Follow for I shall Not Lead
I am but a Simple Drummer

Thanks again for all the responses. Thank you, Happy Farmer, for affirming what I suspected. As I've said multiple times, I'm aware that LGDs are different than pet dogs. This is why I've even asked the question. IF this was a "pet" dog it would have been shot because of all the aggression, but she is NOT a pet. I understand she is bred to guard and in order to guard, she has to be aggressive. After reading all your comments and visiting the working LGD yahoo group (thank you, thank you for that link), I've decided to go with my gut and give her some more time, as I think she can be a great dog. I just haven't given her enough time to adjust to us and us to her, and for us to communicate clearly with her. I was feeling a bit overwhelmed and wanted to make sure my instincts were correct in the face of my husband's suggestion to shoot her.

I do believe the rabbit thing was her trying to protect the kits. I think that the episode with my house dog was because Pearl saw her doing something threatening to the livestock. Pearl was here several months before there was any kind of altercation between her and the house dog.

The wandering thing is only a problem when she is out with my LGD pup (eight months old). When they're together, she seems to forget she's the adult and should know better. We are working on the perimeter fence, but that won't happen overnight. Until then, the two LGDs are taking turns being out. The one inside is on poultry/rabbit duty. The one outside is on goat duty. Hopefully, this way they don't feel they're being punished when in the pen since they still have animals with them. The pen will be electrified this week.

Pearl has excellent instincts. I've seen them in action on multiple occasions. She just needs some more training. I assumed, incorrectly, that at her age and from what her previous owners had said, that she was fully trained. I see now she needs a little more guidance. I am more than willing to work with her.

I am curious how those of you who feed your dogs raw food, deal with the LGD tendency to eat when they want/can and not on a schedule. I can't leave raw meat sitting out all day like I can the dry dog food. I like the idea of a jump box, but not sure how that will work with raw food.....any ideas?

Thanks again for all your help.

I'll just add something, just to emphasize the perspective. When training in a situation as yours, with a strong alpha older dog as a newcomer, the perspective is that you're re-training a dog pack, and not the perspective of training a new dog. So, you as the pack alpha, should be a strong alpha presence and stop any intention of dog postering at it's onset. If the dogs lock eyes, or hackles raise, anticipate and stop it before the growling starts. If those two alpha dogs "look at each other", you should give them hell's fury. And also, they both get “the treatment” alike, so that any one doesn't believe that he made out at a higher pack position than before, after the altercation. It's an attitude like, "There's no dog posturing allowed in my presence. Don't you dogs realize that you're in my presence?"

I have one more thought on Pearl leaving the area when the pup is loose with her. The pup stays in the pen, while pearl leaves, correct? I'll bet Pearl is just patrolling the area for potential threats while leaving the pup in charge to protect your stock. What you're seeing is the teamwork these dogs are known for. We call it wandering they consider it expanding their territory & pre-disposing of threats before they come near their livestock.

I can't help you on the raw meat diet as we feed dry. Sounds gross but canines have been eating old nasty meat for a long time before people came around. Maybe you could offer some dry dog food free choice for their hunger spurts, and raw daily just enough so they finish it with no leftovers.

I'm glad you're giving her some more time. From what you've wrote she's a good dog, and you're blessed to be owned by her. I wouldn't have high expectations for her training though. Some habits you'll be able to curb, some you'll control, but being an independent breed bottom line is she's in charge and will do what she deems best for her charges in any given circumstance. This independence & ability to think is why they make such good livestock dogs for so long. Pick your battles & you'll be fine.
HF

Thanks, Stann and Happy Farmer. The perspective is exactly what I need. That helps a lot.

Happy Farmer, as far as Pearl leaving. When she is out by herself (the pup is penned up), she'll do her patrol, which means she's gone for 15-30 minutes and then returns to the livestock. I have even seen her at times on the hills around our house, so I know she doesn't go very far. I am totally fine with this. I expect this from her.

The problem arises when both she and the pup are out of the pen. They take off and are gone all day. I've gotten calls from neighbors and had to go pick them up 3-4 miles away. So, that's why they're rotating right now. One is always in the pen with the poultry and rabbits while the other is out free ranging with the goats.

I like the idea of leaving some dry food out all the time and then giving the raw twice a day. I always worry they're not eating enough. Now, just to keep the dog food away from the goats.......

Overall, as far as training goes, I am truly enjoying working with both my LGDs. They are so smart and pick up on new things so quickly. That's also why I'm so careful with them and try to think things through before reacting to a behavior. I know they act for a reason and I don't want to teach them the wrong thing

I don't know what a jump box is, so I can't comment on that, but I do feed my Pyrenees raw (no kibble at all). I feed all our dogs raw, but the house dogs are fed separately... I just give him half his daily ration, twice a day, and he eats it. I've never yet had him turn up his nose and leave it. I set his bowl down, he eats, then I pick up his bowl, wash it and put it away until the next feeding. He will jump up and say, "ROWF!!!" if any of the cats or chickens come near his bowl while he's eating, but that's all he does and they scatter immediately (which was his whole point) and he finishes his meal in peace. I don't have a problem with that behavior at all.

I like to give him bones (large bones) in the morning so he has the day to chew on them, or sleep, as he so desires. I found that if I give him fresh meaty bones in the evening, he'll lay there chewing on the bone and barking occasionally, but he doesn't want to leave the bone and therefore doesn't go patrol the fencelines like he's supposed to. So chewie-bone breaks are only during the daylight hours now.

~Lannie