Should I shoot my dog?

Find the dog another home through a Rescue group. The dog is exibiting normal dog behavior. Food aggression and aggression towards other dogs are not uncommon traits. I had a cattle dog that would nip (softly) ankles to get attention and be aggressive towards other dogs but great with people. You also have to realize that some things are just instinct and part of a breed.

The thing that jumps out at me is that the bunny issue and the house dog issue weren't witnessed. I'd definately be sure before I did anything. She's an older girl who suddenly lost her familiar surroundings and was plopped into a play, sometime around the second act, that she didn't really get the whole script for. Maybe supervision with negative reinforcement when you SEE her misbehaving?

Good luck, whatever you decide.

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The only advise I have to offer is the sit on a bale of hay method. Sit down and try to find a solution to the problems that you have and try to see what the dog sees. Maybe putting a fence to keep the dog in the pasture where his job is . Putting the food on a table and then the animals will not be near. Remeber you got the dog to guard the sheep and he is doing the job that is asked of him. He has some other little Quirks that need to be worked out and addressed and this could take some time but you and him will need to work on this together.The question is to keep him or not. I believe that all dogs can be taught to be good dogs and do a task that is asked of them but is it worth the time and effort?The last piece of advise is you have a responsibly to the dog and the public. You know this dog has agressive behavior to food or other dogs and should not be given to anyone else you should be the last owner of the dog. Nobody needs to get bit or tore up over a dog that has behavior problems. A young child does not need to lose his face because of a poor behaved dog . There are to many good dogs around that need a good home. So dont give or sell this dog to the public.Only you can answer the question to keep him or not but you can ask for advise on how to solve problems that arise

Shoot her? No.

She is an imprinted dog removed from the environment in which she was imprinted and requires reconditioning and imprinting.

When my family ran a Bullmastiff breeding kennel, we were given a 3 year old stud who had been moved to 4 families before us and had no clear imprint and had developed a somewhat outlaw personality. Took us a year and a half to reimprint him, but eventually he imprinted to us and our home pack and the breeder who had rescued him and given him to us complimented us on reimprinting and obiedence training him when we got together to test field trial him with a couple of dogs from her kennel.

There are many options to reimprinting a dog. The AKC,Your local vet or humane society can point you towards what they consider the best obiedence programs. Most only require short daily sessions to gain results.

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i have LGD an he is kept were the chickens are an they are in a large area with a couple strands of electric fence to teach him were he is to be an he now stays there even when it is off. i was told when i got him to keep him something to play with so he dont get bored an play with other animals an lick them to death if they are small. guy i got my great pyraness from said he cuaght his dogs holding chickens down a licking them which could be what happen to the rabbits a small rabbit could be killed by this behavior. an you may want to see if the dog can hear out both ears an see out both eyes reason been my buddy has a pyraness mix an had lil trouble with him an found out he was deaf in one ear so walking up on him on that side he didnt know you were there till he seen you or you touched him . lucky enough he not one to try bite us but would jump . i seen this in other dogs on farms an they would lung at animals that walked up on bad side . just lil food for thought there . myself personally i put the dog with animals that it is to protect an run a hot wire to teach it thats were it stays an leave it there

Ping, I PMed you. If you decide not to keep Pearl, and I can see some reasons why she may not be a good fit for you, I'd be interested in taking her. Please don't shoot her - it sounds like she has some issues to be worked out, but could still be a decent working dog in the right situation.

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My posts and words remain my exclusive property and may not be used without my express written permission and proper credit given for authorship.

Don't shoot her!

Like others have said, LGDs imprint really hard on their territory and that is that. When you just up and move them to a new place, they have to be worked with to understand their new boundary and territory, etc.

As for the rabbits, that doesn't sound LGD-ish to me. That sounds like the LGD got there after the fact. Rabbits are just psycho at times, and you yourself said that this one wasn't so good with her kits.

Food aggression happens for a lot of reasons; food being withheld or not given regularly, punishment occurring near food, other dogs taking food but most of all - insecurity and fear of changes. Sounds like your situation was just perfect for creating a food aggressive dog.

You can work that out with them, but first work on trust and boundary issues. There is a pretty effective sequence for desensitizing to other animals but it does take some time and effort to do.

Don't shoot her though. If you can't commit the time, then get her to a rescue group that understands them. They can work that right out of her and make her a happy and lolling comfy dog.

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Growing Human
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When wearing narrow lenses of hate and ignorance, is it any wonder one finds it difficult to see clearly? - Me

The dog doesn't stay where she's supposed to be. How can you keep someone from walking by a dog that isn't where she belongs? She isn't trustworthy. I'm not comfortable owning an aggressive dog that doesn't stay put. This particular dog has unsupervised time and things have happened. What happens if she's on someone else's property attacking their dogs?

Take notice that I did not say this dog should be shot. I only gave information about the choice I made for my dog.

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Robin

OK, now I understand what you meant, thanks.

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I cried because I had no shoes, until I saw a man who had no feet.

She sounds like a great guard dog. I second the need for a training collar. It worked wonders on my dog.

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You're welcome!

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Robin

I agree that she sounds like a great dog that hasn't quite settled in to her new pack and might need a little help.

Worst case she may need a different home more like what she grew up with.

"We were given Pearl because her previous owners were getting rid of their large livestock and because their neighbors didn't like her barking."

LGD Bark, its their way of letting everyone know they are on the job.. stay away evil predators.


"She is three years old. Half Anatolian and half Pyranees."

So she is ALMOST mature. LGD grow and develop slowly. They are still learning and figuring out life for the first four years. She has learned her job, been taken away from it and shown a new job. She is going to need more training, lots more. Its not an impossible job, but it sounds like this is more than you bargained for. How old is your other LGD? Training a LGD is NOT like training a house dog and at this point I think you need some experienced help to get through this bump.

The Good:

It sounds like she knows her job and is doing it well.

"The Bad:
She has food aggression. Will snarl and lunge at anything within 20 feet of her food bowl. This isn't too big of a deal. A lot of dogs have this especially LGDs so we just feed her by herself."

This is a big deal. Don't think it isn't. There is a lot of reasons going into this action and they need to be dealt with. You have a dog that either through breeding or training, I vote for number 2, thinks it needs to be protective of the food. Now throw in that she is maturing and personalities change at 4 and the fact that she is now in a new environment where she feels threatened and is learning a new job and you have a bad mix. I have a feeling that this is what is really disturbing you, because this is the power you see and it coats everything else you think or know that she is involved with.

"She won't stay in our fence enclosure. It is five foot woven. She climbs it like a monkey."

Ummm sorry that's classic LGD. They are bred to protect a LARGE area. Fences do not matter. Predators have square MILES that are their homes, LGD are bred to chase them out of their home ranges and defend the flock. How big is your place? I recommend that anyone who gets a LGD introduce it to all their neighbors, because at some point they are going to see the dog in the front yard and the dog is going to be on duty.

"She will randomly snarl and lunge at different animals for apparently no reason. Sometimes it just seems like they came too close to where she was lying. So far she has never actually attacked any of the animals, but this makes me nervous."

What type of animals? How old? Did she have a stick or food at the time? It sounds like she is asserting her dominance over the other residents. Also classic LGD, everyone needs to know they are the Alpha animals, respect me, listen to me and I will keep you safe.


"She won't stay home if she and our other LGD are out of the dog kennel at the same time. She stays home fine if she's the only one loose."

Another classic LGD behavior. If they can be puppies, then they will be if they are unsupervised. You need to remember that shepherds worked beside the dogs in the field, adult dogs trained younger dogs and only experienced adults worked alone in the field.

"She has attacked my house dog (lab/newfoundland cross) twice now. Neither time we were present to see what instigated it."

LGD are working dogs. They don't play by the same set of rules as house dogs. She is the newcomer and feels the need to protect her space. She was bred to be the dominate alpha canine and not back down. Does not matter who instigated it, if you leave them alone together, she will finish it. Same will go with other LGD as they figure out the pecking order.


"The mother of this litter doesn't have the best track record for caring for her kits. She has been known to string them around herself, so she could have done that and Pearl just thought she was protecting them? Except, there was the older baby that was dead too."

I'd say you need to let this pass. Too many variables. I've had adults kill other adults when they get the blood thirst.


"When we got livestock we decided to cull heavily for animals that didn't fit what we wanted. I consider my LGDs livestock and if they're not doing their job, they're gone."

What do you want in a LGD? I see problems with other LGD cropping up if you have a different idea of what a LGD should do compared to this dog.


"Since I don't know what started the fights and I don't know what she was actually doing in the rabbit pen and I don't know exactly why she snarls at the animals occasionally."

It sounds like you needed to give her more time when she first came there. Even though she was already trained at one place, you turned her world upside down. She has too much unsupervised time right now. She needs to have someone with her at all times to show her what needs to be done and how to act. Pretend she is a new puppy and go from there. She already has experience, so once she learns the new routine she will be a gem.

"Bottom line I need to be able to trust her and I don't."

That is sad. because I think she is getting blamed for being a great LGD.

"Sorry this is so long,"

NO, I might be harsh, but I'm glad you are asking. As a dog trainer I saw too many people that would not admit they had a problem they could not solve and the dog suffered.

I have to disagree with the training collar ideas. This is a large, aggressive, scared, maturing dog who is an alpha. Putting a training collar on a dog like this with someone who does not have the experience and knowledge to use it properly is going to be a disaster. The dog will be put down, because from that moment on the dog will have lost all respect of humans and will be a fear biter. Training collars are meant to be used with POSITIVE reinforcement and as a means to get the dogs attention, not punishment. They have to respect and listen to the trainer first and there needs to be a bond of listening and learning from each other. If I walked out and put a collar on one of the police dogs here that I did not respect or was afraid of, I'd be in the hospital.

PM me anytime if you want help. And if you really want to make a go of it, I can give you kennel space and free training for being honest with yourself.

Trey

Wow, thanks everyone for the great responses. Let me see if I can clarify/address your concerns. I'm glad to hear there are a few people who would be willing to rehome her. I was concerned that I would not be able to find a home for her. I could not give a dog to someone without them being fully aware of her good points and bad points and why I was not keeping her. I really doubted that anyone with animals or children would take a dog like Pearl. So, in good conscience I figured my only option if I couldn't retrain her would be to put her down.

I'm more than willing to work with her some more. My husband is actually the one who was ready to shoot her and that was only because of the fact that when she attacked our house dog, we could not get her to stop. Having an aggressive dog (which I realize is what we are asking her to be when we ask her to guard) that will not obey us is dangerous to us and to anyone who comes on our property.

I am not someone who takes animal ownership lightly, especially dog ownership. I do have experience working with and training house dogs/pets. I realize that LGDs are very different and need different training and technique. I have researched this and have implemented what I've learned. I am also observing my two LGDs and learning a lot from them too. They respond differently than other house dogs I've worked with.

I do realize that her behavior is normal dog behavior. That doesn't mean that her normal dog behavior is acceptable. This is why we train dogs--to curb and redirect their unacceptable normal dog behavior. I also firmly believe that animals don't act randomly or for no reason. So, I try to see things from their point of view so I can better communicate with them. I

It helps to think of her as a puppy still. I am also training an LGD pup right now. He has lots of unacceptable behaviors but he's a pup and I am working with him to redirect him and he is learning and will be a great LGD some day. With Pearl, I guess I was concerned that since she is pretty much matured that these behaviors may be irreversible, that she may be beyond training. I have always had my dogs from puppyhood. I've never started with an adult.

My gut feeling all along with this girl has been that she is a good dog, possibly even an excellent dog. She has a great personality and is very sensitive. My feeling all along has been that she thinks she is doing her job, I'm just not being clear with my communication to her. I absolutely agree that she has been dumped into a new environment and it will take time for her to adjust. I saw a big change in her after she had been here a month, so I guess I thought she had adjusted. I see now I need to give her more time.

To clarify a couple of concerns raised, her food aggression is only toward the animals, not humans. I wouldn't tolerate food aggression toward us. I understand her aggression toward the animals. They are constantly trying to eat her food. This is why I feed her in the kennel by herself.

I understand the barking is normal for LGDs. We did get her even though we knew she barked. That is not an issue.

I have used training collars with my dogs. My experience has been that LGDs especially seem to know the collar is on and that it is the cause of the high pitched sound or shock. They will do a wrong behavior all day long with me correcting them and positively reinforcing, etc. As soon as that collar goes on, they stop the behavior and won't do it again UNTIL the collar comes off then they'll resume. We used a high pitched sound bark collar for when the dogs would bark obsessively at something. They'd stop as soon as the collar went on (without it ever being activated) and resume as soon as the collar came off.

Thanks for the help, keep it coming!

[QUOTE=Natural Beauty Farm;3934724]Yes, I realize this. That is why we took her anyway. This isn't a problem for us.

It is helpful to know she has another year to mature. All my research has said that by three years they are mature, so I've been operating on the assumption that at this point she is what she is; that retraining may not work. Like I said in my other post, I've always had my dogs from puppyhood so have never dealt with training an adult dog. It's good to know she is still trainable. I'm more than willing to keep working with her. I just didn't want to be irresponsible and keep a dangerous dog. My other LGD is eight months. We've had him since he was three months old. He is coming along fine. I'm used to working with pups and have been implementing what I've researched as far as LGD training with him and he is doing nicely. I guess I'm just more understanding with him since he is a pup. I wasn't giving Pearl the same understanding.

I absolutely agree. From watching her I can see her instincts are very good. You can always tell when a dog is doing something they know they shouldn't be and when they think they're doing something good and they're proud of it. She thinks she is doing the right thing. I just need to communicate better with her and I guess that's where I'm hung up. For some reason, her being an adult dog is throwing me.


She isn't aggressive toward humans, so I didn't think it was a problem. She also only growls and snaps, never bits or attacks over food. Also, she will immediately stand down when I tell her to.

Thank you. I understand this too. We live on 12 acres surrounded on two sides by timber company land for 100s of acres. Our only two neighbors have been introduced and don't mind her. She is afraid of people other than us and won't come near them. I actually have wondered if she was beaten at some point, because she is so fearful and submissive to humans. So, I've been very gentle with my training of her because she appears to be very sensitive.


The animals are the goats, typically. This seems to occur when she is lying down. Each time I've investigated and there has been no stick or food. The other times she has done this has been at night when the animals are bedding down in their sheds. She will pick an area that is hers and won't let the others near it. It just appears she is guarding her sleeping space. This isn't consistent, because I've often seen her sleeping right up against the goat kids too. I've also wondered if she is more tolerant with the kids versus the adults due to her back ground with bummer lambs. Because of this, and the fact that she just won't stay in the night pen and I don't want my pup learning fence climbing from her, I let her out during the night. She sleeps right outside the fence.

Ah, this helps. I knew they wandered and patrolled their territory. With Pearl out on her own, she will do two or three patrols each day. She won't be gone long and returns to her animals and stays with them the rest of the time. I have no problem with this since our neighbors are fine with it and actually like that she keeps the coyotes away. The problem is when she and the pup are out together. Then they take off and will be gone all day and I've had to go pick them up miles away. So, maybe he just brings out the puppy in her and she gets distracted from her job. I've been letting him out during the day and her out in the evening, night and early morning. I think this is helping the pup bond with the animals more and not to her. It is also giving him a chance to guard and not rely on her to do all the work.


I think the attacks on the house dog and the rabbit issues are related. I think Pearl wants to protect the rabbits but isn't sure (because I haven't been clear) what is expected of her. My house dog is obsessed with the rabbits. She's too old and creaky to do get in the pen, but she likes to sit outside and watch them and will often whine. It is possible that Pearl was protecting them. It is also possible that there is still some alpha struggle going on. This is hard to believe though since my house dog has never been a dominant type dog. She is very submissive.

I just don't want to be one of those people who end up with a lot of animals that aren't pulling their weight because I don't have the heart to cull properly. Like I've said, I think she does have the right instincts and I've been impressed with her abilities. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't letting the bad behaviors or misdirected good behaviors go to the point of endangering people and being irresponsible. I'm willing to keep working with her. I just wasn't sure where the line was when retraining isn't going to work anymore.
I agree. I know I'm not communicating well with her. That's why I've been watching her and giving her the benefit of the doubt so far. I just don't want to let it go too far. I think the distrust stems from just not knowing her well enough yet and also her lack of basic obedience training, which I can remedy.


This has been my confusion when it comes to LGDs. I've had no problem with my other dogs when it comes to establishing my alpha role and their respect. My problem is with getting the LGD to respect me but not be bonded to me instead of their animals. I'm a little confused about how to do this.

Thank you so much. Please feel free to post your advice here. I know there are others struggling with understanding and communicating with LGDs. Thank you for taking the time to respond with such thought and insight.

Here is something Ping originally said that has jumped out at me with re-reading:


"She has attacked my house dog (lab/newfoundland cross) twice now. Neither time we were present to see what instigated it. The house dog is old and creaky.... This last time Pearl attacked her it was really bad. Both of them were really bloody and couldn't walk very well the next few days."


1) House dog is not a small dog, has been there longer, and it would be normal (despite her age) to want to try to maintain her queen status above Pearl.

2) Both times no one was present to see "who" instigated the "contest of wills" ... but the last time Pearl "attacked her" it was really bad.

3) But, you didn't see what happened, remember? You assume Pearl attacked first.

4) If BOTH of them were bloody and couldn't walk very well for days afterward ... that tells me that Pearl was affected, too, by the contest of wills ... and it was NOT the one-sided, @ss-whipping session it has been painted out to be.

5) Your dogs are just being dogs, and establishing rank within the pecking order.

6) Pearl is genetically wired to be the alpha among her kind, and should not be executed because of her genetic predisposition.

7) The dogs will work it out between themselves IF the humans (including children) step up to the plate and establish CLEAR alpha over Pearl.

8) Confusion is present when NO ONE is in control ... and, chaos reigns if no one is holding the reins.

9) Shooting Pearl would be gross irresponsibility and neglect of your obligation as the "ultimate alpha" on your domain.

10) If you do not have the time or wherewithal to establish "ultimate alpha" on your domain with Pearl, then the most humane thing to do would be to find a home for her where she can thrive under the proper leadership required to utilize her full character.


I've read Ping's responses since her original post, and am happy to see her willingness to recognize (and understand) what is going on here with Pearl ... just wanted to shed light upon the struggle between the dogs, and reiterate the struggle is normal in the animal kingdom.

And, also, stress that we humans are numero uno in the animal kingdom and need to take the reigns if our kingdom is to run smoothly.

I really wish you all well.

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i dont like to think tooo much before i speak ... heehee ... i like to be just as surprised as you are.

Thank you, Mama Crow, for your insight. I am very well aware and familiar with pack interactions and the need for all animal species, not just dogs, to establish the pecking order. I also am well aware of the need to be the alpha in my pack. I have had no problem establishing my alpha status with my animals.

I've had Kendra, the house dog, for nine years, since she was a puppy. She has never in that time been aggressive toward other dogs. She has always been play, play, play. Even when other dogs were aggressive toward her, she has never retaliated. The only time I've seen her aggressive was with strangers who she thought were endangering me personally and then she was never physical, always just vocal. Usually in an alpha situation, once one dog gives, then the fight is over and they're friends again. Not so here. We called Kendra off (she is very obedient) and it appeared to me that she tried to stop, but Pearl kept attacking her. Even after we had led Kendra away (and she seemed fairly willing to be led away), Pearl kept attacking her from behind and had to be held back. This is why I was confused by her behavior. It seemed over the top to me. I don't know. I guess it could have been an alpha struggle. I really think Pearl would have killed her though before she would have stopped.

What I don't know is if Kendra was doing something that appeared threatening to the animals that Pearl was guarding. It is also possible that Kendra was trying to play and Pearl took it the wrong way. I've noticed this with Pearl before--she doesn't play, she is all business, which I admire. In this situation I did not reprimand either dog. We just got them separated and cleaned them up. I have no problem with Pearl defending the animals against Kendra and I have no problem with her establishing alpha. I do have a problem with her not stopping when told to do so. That is where I need to work with her on her basic obedience.


Maybe it would help to know what I have done in my training with her.
When she disobeys a command, I'll first use the tone of my voice to indicate she is in the wrong and tell her "bad dog" or "no." If she is unresponsive, I'll roll her onto the ground, hold her firmly with a hand or knee on her neck and a hand on her muzzle and growl at her. I've also had her do long down stays next to me or with me standing over her. She's not allowed to go in front of me through gates or doorways. She has to sit and wait for me to place the food bowl in front of her for her to eat. I've done all the things I know to do to establish alpha. And of course when she does anything remotely good, she is praised and petted. I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement. Any other ideas? I have seen progress. I'm thinking it is just this attack that has thrown me and made me question. Is there a good way I can check her hearing? Maybe she has a hearing problem and that is why she is so jumpy and doesn't respond immediately to commands........

I think you've had some insightful advice. I just have a few pearls of wisdom. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself.) After the first tussle I don't understand why you'd let your house pet outside without you being in attendance. I would not allow this to be until the LGD is fully trained.

About Pearl..... I think you would do best by getting advice and training from an experienced LGD trainer. Just as we pay for weekly horse riding and horse training lessons I think that an experienced trainer would be very helpful.

Our two kids have service dogs. We had to go through more than two weeks of boot camp before we brought these dogs home because our kids have these dogs as a matter of life and death and quality of life. It seems to me that even though you have Pearl as a LGD her presence is also a matter of life and death and quality of life. An experienced trainer is the least expensive, most efficient way to go, in my opinion.

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-----DD

Just a suggestion, ask for advice at the Yahoo Groups "workingLGDs". They are very, very knowledgeable.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/workingLGDs/

Just my opinion, I think that your training/acclamation methods may be fine for a puppy, but I wouldn't necessarily rely on those obedience methods for your 3 year old LGD, in your situation, JMO. They're OK as a suppliment, but again... ask those experts at the Yahoo "workingLGDs" guys, about your dog's pack dynamics. It'll go a long way in getting a clear picture of your options, and how to approach this problem. Again, those guys are very good at it (not me, I'm no expert).


Added:

Added: Show the "workingLGDs" post your paragraph below and I believe that they'll give you a very helpful response...


I've had Kendra, the house dog, for nine years, since she was a puppy. She has never in that time been aggressive toward other dogs. She has always been play, play, play. Even when other dogs were aggressive toward her, she has never retaliated. The only time I've seen her aggressive was with strangers who she thought were endangering me personally and then she was never physical, always just vocal. Usually in an alpha situation, once one dog gives, then the fight is over and they're friends again. Not so here. We called Kendra off (she is very obedient) and it appeared to me that she tried to stop, but Pearl kept attacking her. Even after we had led Kendra away (and she seemed fairly willing to be led away), Pearl kept attacking her from behind and had to be held back. This is why I was confused by her behavior. It seemed over the top to me. I don't know. I guess it could have been an alpha struggle. I really think Pearl would have killed her though before she would have stopped.

What I don't know is if Kendra was doing something that appeared threatening to the animals that Pearl was guarding. It is also possible that Kendra was trying to play and Pearl took it the wrong way. I've noticed this with Pearl before--she doesn't play, she is all business, which I admire. In this situation I did not reprimand either dog. We just got them separated and cleaned them up. I have no problem with Pearl defending the animals against Kendra and I have no problem with her establishing alpha. I do have a problem with her not stopping when told to do so. That is where I need to work with her on her basic obedience.

Maybe it would help to know what I have done in my training with her.
When she disobeys a command, I'll first use the tone of my voice to indicate she is in the wrong and tell her "bad dog" or "no." If she is unresponsive, I'll roll her onto the ground, hold her firmly with a hand or knee on her neck and a hand on her muzzle and growl at her. I've also had her do long down stays next to me or with me standing over her. She's not allowed to go in front of me through gates or doorways. She has to sit and wait for me to place the food bowl in front of her for her to eat. I've done all the things I know to do to establish alpha. And of course when she does anything remotely good, she is praised and petted. I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement. Any other ideas? I have seen progress. I'm thinking it is just this attack that has thrown me and made me question. Is there a good way I can check her hearing? Maybe she has a hearing problem and that is why she is so jumpy and doesn't respond immediately to commands........

Like I said in closing of my last post, I am happy to see your willingness to recognize (and understand) what is going on here with Pearl ... and, I had just wanted to shed light upon the struggle between the dogs, and to reiterate the struggle is normal in the animal kingdom.

I see this thread is an excellent opportunity to reach other people who may be looking for help with a similar situation of their own.

I hope I haven't offended you.

And, I still really wish you all well.

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I LOVE DONUT BALLS

i dont like to think tooo much before i speak ... heehee ... i like to be just as surprised as you are.