Big Vehicles Still Outselling Small Ones

An locking diff. actually makes the vehicle more prone to fishtailing.

Reason being.... With an open diff. if you hit the gas enough to break the rear wheel loose only one wheel will spin. The non spinning wheel acts as an anchor to help keep the rear end from sliding out. Of course it still can slide out but it is less likely to.

Hit the gas to hard with a locking diff and both wheels spin and you got nothing to help keep the rear end from coming around.

Everyone should learn how to drive a rear wheel drive car on icy roads. Doing that forces a person to understand the physics involved and gives an appreciation for how and what can go wrong and how fast it can happen.

We had two Escort wagons that we used as commuters. Put snow tires all the way around and were good to go. We get some snow once in a while here in Vermont.

Way back I had one of those little Volkswagon pickup trucks, FWD. That thing would go ANYWHERE. I wish I still had the little rig.

Without understanding the how's and why's of how the rear end works (dh could explain it and probably has but my eyes glaze over and I just nod and say "oh, interesting") you might be right. But I do know that we have had some pretty snow and ice covered roads since the lock right was installed (the traction lock helped some but wasn't that great) I have tried my hardest and cannot get that car to fishtail.

I have a lot of fun in empty parking lots with the vehicles. That is the ONLY way to understand how a car will handle on snow and ice is to get out where there is nothing around and practice driving in the stuff. It helps a whole lot when you are 30 miles from home with snow falling 3 inches in 30 minutes and the roads are already covered.

The problem with a fwd is that if your front end goes off the road you are stuck. Mom had that very problem in '78 with her VW Dasher. Some idiot shoved her over just a little bit. It was enough to get her fwd stuck but since the back was still on the pavement a rwd would have got out of the mess. On the flip side I got the back end of my rwd (not the current crown vic) just a little off the road on one tire and it all slipped into the ditch. Dh had to tow me out with his lawn tractor. Sometimes it doesn't matter what you have or how well you can drive it, things happen and you still get stuck.

I lived 10 years in Michigan's UP and there was a LOT of snow up there.





I was referring to locking the differentials (eg: airlocker) and it would only be used at slow speed in deep snow or off road. But such will get you through mud and snow that nothing else will. Course you bury any vehicle up to the frame and you arent going anywhere.





Again apples and oranges. There is a reason race cars are not front wheel drive. For best handling race cars are very low center of gravity and they are rear wheel drive with as equal weight bias front to back as possible.

Front drives on ice have weight bias like 80% on front end. Light rear loses traction, then you go into a spin. As I mentioned with that VW Rabbit I had, once the light weight rear lost traction, all control was lost. Now it was short wheelbase. A long wheelbase front drive would be much less likely to go into a pirouette.

Again the most stable vehicle on glare ice is LOW CENTER OF GRAVITY with a LONG WHEELBASE. A low center of gravity vehicle with long wheelbase will out handle high center of gravity vehicle with short wheelbase no matter what wheels are being driven. Comparing a long wheelbase front drive with low center of gravity to a short wheelbase rear drive with a high center of gravity and giving all credit for better handling to front drive is silly. Its a matter of physics not extra weight over drive wheels.

You too, though doubt I'll ever make it to Maine so really isnt going to matter to me. There are enough crazy people that try to drive too fast under ice or heavy rain conditions here in Arkansas. I just stay off road in bad weather if at all possible. Couple years ago I was putt-putting home on glare ice at fantastic 15mph. I still got home far sooner than the speed demons that ended up parking in the ditch. My main worry was some yahoo hitting me. Believe it or not I even had several cars try to pass me only to spin and end up in ditch. Finally there was a long enough line of us driving slow that the fast guys didnt try to pass. Some people just dont get that their new expensive car with all the gadgets cant defeat the laws of physics.

Front drives have a differential built into the transaxle that does very same thing the differential does on rear drives. Otherwise you couldnt turn the car. And notice how your front drive car feels if one front wheel loses traction. Its not a good feeling. Front drives have traditionally given significant understeer also, making handling more unpredicatable. There is a reason race cars dont use front drive. They need to handle at high speed.





I really dont care if you are a CAPRICORN with a snow cone. Physics is physics. If you hydroplane in a front drive you are just as out of control and they do hydroplane. Means you are driving too fast for conditions and/or your tires arent up to handling the water on the road surface. Equal weight vehicles with equal tires and I'd still rather drive the better balanced vehicle. And you drive for conditions which means you NEVER drive fast in icy conditions unless you are out on a Minnesota lake in middle of winter where you cant hit anything. I frankly had more trouble turning on ice with the front drive Rabbit than I ever did with the Nova. Brakes are your enemy on ice, you let engine slow you down, maybe tapping brakes. Slamming them on in ice conditions in any vehicle and you are screwed as you lose control. Front drive only helps get you out of your driveway on fresh couple inch snow without chains. Chains on a rear drive will do just as well.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

40k in 3 years is nothing compared to what many put on their vehicles. It took 2 years to put enough miles on my pickup to need an oil change. They think getting better fuel mileage is the answer.

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That is something everyone who drives on ice should practice evey season.


True enough.

Any vehicle FWD or RWD, once your power wheels are in the ditch submerged in mud; you are nearly stuck.

How many feel safer in a small car?

Very few pickup trucks are low center of gravity.

Race cars are, low, wide with very little clearance. Which makes them unpractical on real roads.

We have frost heaves here, that would rip out the undercarriage of any race car.

Driving onto 6 inches of snow would lift their undercarriage right up off the pavement and high-center a race car.


They try to make HMMVs as wide as possible to give them a wide stance and make them stable, but they are also high in the air, so they do not have a low center of gravity.

Long wheel base and wide stance and low center of mass would combine into a much better vehicle, add 8 inches of clearance into the package and your would have a great vehicle.

Alas no such beast exists.

C4C?

Maybe....I've got a 97 Ford 150 that I bought new. Got about 165,000 miles on it. Problem is, after looking at most of the websites, the vehicles it qualifies for, aren't the type vehicles I want, or can afford.

I can qualify for the Silverado hybrid, but that's too much money and I don't think the technology cost is worth the increased gas mileage.

I can qualify for the Colorado crew cab, but only if it has the 4 cylinder. If it had the 5 (which has a lot more torque and ponies), I might be interested, but it costs almost as much as a full-size.

I can qualify for the Toyota Tacoma, but only the regular cab and the Access cab...you can haul two people, and that's it. Again, only the 4-banger qualifies (although it's the best 4-banger in any small truck, right now).

Ranger? Pretty much the same as the Toyota. Mazda follows suite.

The difference in mpg with all of the above trucks vs a Chevy Silverado V6 is very little...if the government had let that truck qualify, I might be in a dealer's showroom today.

Lastly, the best deals I found were on small cars, where the factories had left the "normal" incentives in place. One can buy a Hyaundai Sonata, nicely equipped, for less than 13K with C4C money, or you can buy a stripped down Accent for $5500...but I just don't need a car...

And if you need a pickup you better be that much more aware and drive that much slower on slick roads. If you hadnt noticed there are no full size FRONT DRIVE PICKUPS either so if you need pickup you dont have your preferred choice either. They are also very light in rear which means you need weight. When I lived up north I had couple old cast iron steam radiators I threw in back of pickup I had so I still had some cargo capacity unlike some that drove around with load of firewood or such. And on slick days I didnt drive pickup. Matter of fact used pickup little in winter, had an old full time 4wd Wagoneer. It was great in snow, bit jittery on ice due to high center of gravity but still best all around winter car.

Duh, its the principle of low center of gravity, road cars arent going 200mph either. That Nova had saggy springs which meant it was especially low to ground without scraping. That little bit extra lower center of gravity made a great difference in handling on ice plus being a 4 door it had longer wheelbase.

Apparently you cant grasp that its not an either/or between a race car barely skimming the surface of road and a monster truck setting up in air on huge tires with 5 ft ground clearance. In other words you dont have to scrape the ground with the undercarriage to gain the benefits of a lower center of gravity. Obviously if you are driving on an unplowed road or a very rough road you are going to want to use a higher center of gravity vehicle and just drive that much SLOWER.


Thing is you have to have a wide path for wide vehicle. Sure those miltary big trucks with 6wd are even wider and longer and even more stable.... Or just drive bulldozers, low center of gravity and they just move all obstacles out of way.... Life is a compromise, you pick vehicle that works best under most conditions you encounter. Picking a vehicle for the few times you have unusual harsh conditions will drain your pocketbook

By very definition, you cant have 8 inches ground clearance and low center of gravity. However an 8 inch ground clearance would be lower center of gravity and thus better handling than a vehicle with 16 inch of ground clearance..... Its all relative. Thus a 2wd pickup will handle better than typical 4wd pickup that sets up higher in the air even though it wont handle better than race car.

__________________
"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

"The difference in mpg with all of the above trucks vs a Chevy Silverado V6 is very little...if the government had let that truck qualify, I might be in a dealer's showroom today."

Go into your local GM dealer and say, "I want a Silverado V6 with these accessories (give a list). I have a C4C which qualifies for $XXXX voucher. What can you do for me - bottom line (including dealer prep), drive off the lot, price? Two quotes: cash or finance. I'll either say yes or no to your offer. If yes, we have a deal. If no, I walk off. And I don't want to talk to your sales manager."

I'd hit them up on say the afternoon of July 31st.

What all these comments really say to me is that Americans won't give up their sense of entitlement, that somehow it is our birthright to drive whatever car we want, no matter what the consequences! I have to have a big car! I have to have a bloated SUV! I have to have an automatic! I have to, I have to, I have to!

At some point in the near future, maybe 2011 gas will just up to 4$ per gallon again and some of you may have to decide whether or not your children can go hungry for a day so you can still fill your tank. I'm a big guy, 6'2" tall and 250lbs, and I can drive a Honda Civic just fine, thank you. Isn't anyone else here man enough to say they can drive a small car with a stick shift? Enough with the excuses!

That is correct. the American people want to drive what they want to. PERIOD~! And NO Government is going to tell them what they can and can not drive, NOR SHOULD THEY.
Stay away from telling me what I can and can not do. PERIOD.
"If They Built it, They Will Buy It."

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I could drive a small car with a stick, did it for years. Could I stand to drive the car for more than an hour straight? NO! Small cars just don't have enough leg room for me to be comfortable. Now if I could stand to have my legs all cramped up and bent I would be able to drive a small car long distances. But I can't. And I frequently drive in areas filled with idiot and unsafe drivers. On the westside of Columbus there is not one single person who understands the law of "assured clear distance". I value my physical health too much to subject myself to being at the mercy of somebody rear-ending me AGAIN! If gas goes back up I will curtail my driving and visit the grocery and other stores ONLY on my way to of from work. And as long as delivery charges cost more than my gas I will go to the lumber yard, appliance store, or feed store with my gas-guzzler.

My children can just go out to the garden and pick their own veggies if they are hungry.

I've driven a small car with a stick shift quite a bit but I don't like it, I don't think it's safe, and you can't haul much more than a sack of groceries in it. I'll stick with my F250 4wd thank you very much. I'll even drag your match box out of the ditch when you need it.

Safer? NO. Do I feel equally safe? Yes I do. The worst handling vehicles I've owned have been my full sized pickups. Yes, they serve a vital need on the homestead, but they aren't sports cars.

I've owned several small sports cars, from MG Midgets, Audi Fox, VW, and muscle car ('68 Nova) and to be honest I like being able to steer my vehicle and get away from trouble. I had a full-sized blazer (high center of gravity, VERY short wheelbase) that would NOT stop or turn in snow and ice. Got rid of that beast pronto. Same for an old dodge p/u that liked to lock up one rear tire in snow, now that was interesting to drive.

My current choice is a compromise. We've been driving Subarus for over 10 years now, and love them. Equally good performance in all weather conditions. The truck stays home until there is hauling to be done.

BTW- My daughter plans to take advantage of the Federal Cars program. She has a '94 Explorer that is barely running, and need a complete new front end. It has 234K miles on it and is worth about $1700. She will trade it and get $4500 toward a Focus. Sounds like a good deal to me.

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This is exactly my idea. My next vehicle is going to be the new diesel Subaru Forester coming out in 2010. Forty mpg AND AWD. If it's also rated for biodiesel, then even better. Just the thing I need when the F-350 is parked. If I could get it with a 6 speed stick it would be a dream car.

My problem is that there are 6 people in my family (me, DH, and 4 kids- 2 of whom are in child seats)... there doesn't seem to be many fuel-efficient vehicles that will fit 6+ people.

I bet it wont qualify for the program
It has to be less than 18 mpg COMBINED

http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Overvie...-Explorer.html

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whinnyninny, have you checked into the Freightliner Sprinter vans? Pricey but they get good mileage on diesel.