Do you use Roundup? Interesting article.....

"On October 12, 1998, a 29-year-old man employed at a Michigan chemical company producing 2,4-D was sprayed with 2,4-DCP from a leak in tubing while he was using steam to clear a blocked pump. The worker bypassed the nearest safety shower and used a locker room shower, where he became unconscious. Resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful, and the worker was pronounced dead at a hospital 1 hour after exposure."

http://www.safe2use.com/health/2-4d-Dichlorophenol.htm

Are you aware that 2,4-D is not the same thing as 2,4-DCP? I'm pretty sure that you are (because it was in the link you posted), so I am wondering why you are trying to confuse people?

Because whatever point he tries to make quickly fails if he isn't able to confuse people. That's the whole strategy.

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The internet - fueling paranoia and misinformation since 1873.

My mistake, here is the correct reference and link:

Jury Charges Dow $1.5 million for 2,4-D caused death of forest worker, Journal of Pesticide Reform, 1987, 7: 4(30).

http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/24d.htm

am I the only one that finds it ironic that organic gardeners have such fits about organic chemistry and organic compounds ??

If your dead set against using round up then use vinegar (not the wimpy 3% stuff sold in the stores ) but the real stuff 25% or better . It will kill anything green .

One thing I find interesting is that if the EPA tested farms about 90% of them would be on the super fund list . I mean lets face it if your house is 35 years old or more it been sprayed with Kloradane, Its a safe bet your fields were sprayed with it as well as DDT. The old fense posts were treated with dioxen and creosote. under the fence to prevent weeds old motor oil and diesel were likely sprayed (possibly agent orange as well ) .
Barns, houses, and equipemt was painted with white lead . in many places even the gravel on the roads is mine tailings with mercury ,lead, and who knows what else in it .
the basements are filled with radon. Heck even granddads old watch has a face paonted with radio active paint . and grandma's wedding ring still has trace amounts of the merdury used in smelting the gold .
a lot of things used foolishly are dangerous .
heck years ago sodium chlorate was used as a weed killer . worked great until the spray dried on your clothing at which point it could explode or burst into flames especially if you happened to have been dusting with sulfur

The two types of 2-4-D are Ester and Amine. Not familiar with any in a paste form to drag over your yard.

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* I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one. .*-

This is the link to the list of people who died in the production of 2,4-D. Most were dead within an hour of exposure.

http://www.safe2use.com/health/2-4d-Dichlorophenol.htm

This is a list of reactions to 2,4-D with the link following:

serious eye and skin irritation
nausea,
weakness and fatigue,
neurotoxic effects including inflammation of nerve endings
severe and sometimes long lasting or even permanent symptoms
diarrhoea
temporary loss of vision
respiratory tract irritation,
confusion, numbness and tingling,
bleeding and chemical hypersensitivity
classified as an endocrine disrupter

http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/24d.htm

Instead of dismissing this as organic fanaticism and labeling as ignorant those in the world who have banned 2,4-D, how about looking to see why this is happening.

To quote a previous post in this thread; "People don't have a clue, most generally because they are uninformed and won't expend the effort to get informed."

Wouldn't it be worth at least looking into to this to see if it just might be true before you spray more Roundup on the lawns, gardens & fields were you live and where your children and grandchildren are playing.

Our place has been "Monsanto" FREE for over 25 years. We get along just fine.

Do you keep your childern away from the most harmful chemical allowed for general use? Nope, I bet you would let your child apply it. I bet you've spread in on the ground around your house. I bet you've eaten a huge amount of this deadly poison. 1 teaspoon of this horrible poison can kill an adult if ingested with in 30 min. If this is added in small quantities to water it ruins it for crop use and makes the water unfit for fish and wild life.
It causes severe chemical burns if applied to the skin. Eye irritation is very likely with just a tiny amount. Inhalation of the dust can cause total lung failure. The chemical can travel by air. Particulate size is such that it can be deposited on surfaces well away from any application.
What is this deadly poison? Salt.



MSDS sheets are very intresting but of little value to most folks.

Again you are trying to introduce information that really doesn't apply. The difference is like apples and oranges. One is the concentrate used to MAKE 2,4D, not the 2,4D itself. A similar comparison would be like a high voltage electrical line and the product it carries and the transformed voltage coming into our homes via the service line. I would expect most concentrates to be more dangerous than the final product.

I further note that the material you tell about is rather dated. I expect that the chemical company final woke up and realized that additional training and the proper clothing/gear is needed. Besides, the average end user doesn't clean out their sprayer with pressurized steam which caused several of the incidents.

I don't have any problem with peopled making a choice whether to use any product or not, but to go about bashing it or the company that makes it when it is a good useful product approved by the EPA tends to get my hackles up.

Enough with this thread since Roundup, glyphosate, and 2,4D are all good products that are approved for use.

Possibly you will like this article better as it is from 2009 and not "dated".

"Four different Roundup formulations of the herbicide glyphyosate manufactured by Monsanto are highly toxic to human cells, and at concentrations far below the recommended agricultural use levels. Researchers at the Institute of Biology in Caen , France published their latest results in the current issue of Chemical Research in Toxicology ."

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/DMPGR.php

THIS POST SHOULD BE IGNORED SINCE I MISREAD AND WAS IN ERROR!
I read the information as being based on the death of three cells when in actuality three lines or types of cells were tested. Perhaps further testing is warranted.

I wasn't going to post on this thread again but that is so ridiculous that I feel I must. They are calling for a ban based on this?---"Three human cell lines were tested: primary cell line HUVEC from umbilical cord vein epithelium, embryonic cell line 293 derived from kidney, and placenta cell line JEG3. All cells died within 24 hours of exposure to the Roundup formulations."

Three cells! What a great test that must be be, and to want to ban a product because of that?

Expect the three cells would have died from exposure to most anything. Vinegar, Liquid Smoke, dish soap, the chlorine in our water, Neosporin, cooking oil, etc. Should we ban them too?

So the problem now is not that the material is "dated" but rather that it "is so ridiculous".

There are those who see this matter a bit differently than you do;

"Scientists say they are "astonished" by new information showing human cell-death from ''inert" properties in the top-selling weed killer in the U.S. and call for stronger regulation."

http://www.examiner.com/x-5148-LA-En...es-human-cells

Of course this could easily be a group of "dated" and "ridiculous" scientists who "don't really understand what they are opposed to."

OV, my previous reply in this thread was just info, hope it didn't come out like some sort of attack on you.

I'm aware of the 2 types of 2-4-D. One is oil based, the other is water based. The water one dries up pretty quickly, the oil one can linger for a long time & will vaporize in a hot period & cause problems to very sensitive crops if the weather pattern is just right.

Both are liquids, however?

What is the brand name of the paste you talk about? It would seem it is formulated into a sticky paste that will kill broadleaves that contact the paste, but it cannot be sprayed as a liquid? Perhaps this is in response to local conditions where you are - a lot of hot windy days, and a lot of cotton or other sensitive plants grown in your area - the only way they allow 2-4-D to be sold without risk to others is this special paste bar you mention?

I've never seen anything like you mention, I'd like to know the brand name of it to investigate it fruther.



Hey Jeff - you are priceless. You are flinging unrelated facts - and made up ones - around to prove somethnig you believe strongly, but isn't true. Even folks oppsed to herbicides in general won't support the folks you are using for 'sources' - they are too far out there on the rare side of the world. Thanks for the chuckles.

--->Paul

I have a little over a mile of field fence so glyphosphate is an aquaintenance of mine. If there is anyone out there who is against this chemical and would like to pull the weeds and little trees out of the fence twice a year, I'll pay you 15 dollars for your efforts. Otherwise I'm using 16 ozs of glyphosphate.

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We have now officially entered the twilight zone.

One of the "inert" ingredients this useless reports is a surficant POEA, which is, in effect - soap.

If you put Dawn dishwashing detergent on live cells, it would likely destroy their cell membranes also.

In just this thread alone I have been without a "clue". Then I got a "clue" but my clue was not valid because people like me "don't really understand what they are opposed to." Then I came to understand but I introduced "information that doesn't really apply". Then it was "ridiculous", "dated" and "You are flinging unrelated facts - and made up ones - around to prove somethnig you believe strongly, but isn't true."

Now I am "priceless" and "providing chuckles".

Based on your comments I promise to try real hard and see if I can finally graduate from the 3rd grade this year using all the great advice I have gotten here.

I previously posed the question:

Wouldn't it be worth at least looking into to this to see if it just might be true before you spray more Roundup on the lawns, gardens & fields were you live and where your children and grandchildren are playing.

Apparently the answer is no.

So keep on spraying that Roundup and continue ignoring the endless references to death, illness, and toxicity associated with this product. May God bless...but do not have the bold faced audacity in the days ahead to say that you did not know and that no one ever told you about the dangers of Roundup. Starting with the original post and the article from Scientific American there are numerous articles and references in this thread to cause any rational being to at least pause and think about the nature of this product.

Study Released in Argentina Puts Glyphosate Under Fire

"A study released by an Argentine scientist earlier this year reports that glyphosate, patented by Monsanto under the name "Round Up," causes birth defects when applied in doses much lower than what is commonly used in soy fields."

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/6254

Roundup's dangers confirmed in report

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...=homeandgarden

On Fri Jan 20, 2007, Monsanto was convicted of false advertising of Roundup for presenting Roundup as biodegradable and claiming that it left the soil clean after use. Environmental and consumer rights campaigners brought the case in 2001 on the basis that glyphosate, Roundup's main ingredient, is classed as "dangerous for the environment" and "toxic for aquatic organisms" by the European Union. Monsanto France planned to appeal the verdict at the time.

Don't spray glyphosate — here's the research

http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver.../48921872.html

Another Reason to Avoid Lawn Pesticides

A new study found that polyethoxylated tallowamine (a.k.a. POEA), an inert ingredient in Monsanto's popular herbicide Roundup (used on farms and on residential lawns) is "more deadly to human embryonic, placental and umbilical cord cells than the herbicide itself,"

http://www.thedailygreen.com/environ...ients-47070102

The Genetic Conspiracy -- Are Genetically Engineered Foods Dangerous?

Even when researchers tested formulations of Roundup that were highly diluted (up to 100,000 times or more) on human cells, the cells died within 24 hours. They also found damage to cell membranes and DNA, along with an inhibition of cell respiration.

At Least 65 Serious Health Risks Have Been Discovered

http://my.auburnjournal.com/detail/117947.html

Ahhh Jeff54321, you have been hired for 30 dollars a summer to pull the weeds and small trees out of my one mile of field fence at least twice a year. I use all chemicals sparingly to the best of my abilities. However, we can no longer provide food for the world's population without chemicals and I am no advocate for throwing chemicals all over the place. Instead of you finding articles from the "green side". Find a way for a farmer to make a profit and not use chemicals. Then you"ll be my hero and many others. You might want to start at the government. Just a suggestion.

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We have now officially entered the twilight zone.

This is a proven myth put forth by none other than the chemical companies.

Here is your answer: www.polyfacefarms.com/

This farm earns 20 times what the chemical farms make on a per acre basis. I hope that you are sincere in your questions as I assure you my answers are.

Polyfacefarms is a pasture based farm much as a ranch would be. So comparing it to a farm that raises Wheat, Soy Beans, Corn and Rice is a bit extraordinary. So what we need to do is to grow beef pigs and chickens without any chemicals to feed the world. That will be alright for about 1 week then they want vegetables and grain to go with what they produce. Show me a farm of more than 1000 acres that grows grain and doesn't use chemicals for more than 5 years and has 20 times earnings and I will listen but You can't not now or ever.

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God must have loved stupid people because he made so many of them.