question about trespassers

I don't really care if people post their land or not. I don't, for the reasons I stated above.

But it kills me when people do one of two things. First is assuming that they don't need to follow the legal posting requirements in their state in order to post their land. Around here, people who run off hunters while refusing to legally post are often committing tax fraud. You can get a substantial tax break for leaving your land open. Many take that tax break and then try to run off anyone who tries to take advantage of the rights their tax dollars purchased. The landowners won't post according to the legal requirements because then the tax collector would take that tax break away. I have very little sympathy for tax evasion.

Second is when people who want their land treated as inviolate cast themselves as noble defenders of the American tradition, and those encouraging open access as representatives of a radical new "entitlement" mindset, when the opposite is actually true. The tradition in this country has always been a presumption of open access. This is a result of the long and difficult history of ensuring access in England, where the nobility tended to lock everyone out. The founders of this country wanted to ensure that the right to hunt and fish wasn't limited to the wealthy few, but was available to all.

I'll still listen to a WCO over someone I came across on the 'net. Disagreements w/ a WCO costs time and money.

Around here people just don't walk up folks drives, Elders don't take kindly to this because of the issues around here.
If a neighbor wants to visit they either call first or honk their car horn..outside of the gate, they don't come onto someones property without permission.
I have gates, fencing and no Tresspassing/hunting signs.
I don't want strangers on my property period because around here, means they are up to no good.

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Shari

.............Had a neighbor who built his new home 150 feet off the county road , wife kept telling him , it was not smart . My land was 265 feet wide and 822 feet deep , I built my home 450 feet back , perimeter fenced completely and had a very tall gate and I kept my gate , Shut . The co op finally installed an electric meter they could read from 1000 feet distant so no need for them to come thru my gate , I never had any problem with trespassers cause my Akita wasn't very diplomatic . , fordy

The best one I had was when someone came in off state land (behind my dad's farm) and tried to kick us off OUR property.

Considering the local CO SGT hunted with us, knew the land borders and was there that day.... let's say it did not go so well for this person

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Roger

The folks visiting might have been in the wrong, to some folks eyes..........

I'll only address the cussing...

But, being a newbie to the area, I can tell you that cussing a local out is like contracting an incurable cancer. If you're not plugged into the local 'scene', the word spreads like wildfire... that couple that moved in the old Schinklegruber place are some real (insert derogatory 'bannable' words here). Within a day or two, everybody has a derogatory opinion of you. What might have taken several years, to break into the fabric of the community, may never happen.

Like Dunne said, no man is an island.... none of us in the country are self sufficient alone... the day will come when you'll need help, and if the locals like you, you're golden... if you're a pain in the tuckus, you're overlooked. Something to the effect that they wouldn't throw water on you if you were on fire (I've heard it said a 'bit' different, using, once again words not fit for a family forum)

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

In Texas, a fence designed to withhold livestock is notice to not tresspass. A closed gate may not be because to access the house for legitimate reasons the gate can be opened. However, a no tresspassing sign on the gate changes the situation. A no tresspassing sign on the driveway still allows legitimate access by emergency, postal and delivery, as well as others with legitimate access. EX. I have a microwave tower on my property and crews have access to it, but they have to go directly there and cannot roam freely on the property. An old woman whose husband worked for my parents was given permission by my dad to live rent free in an old house in the pasture, she is still there and her family and company comes in to see her often, more often than i like, ....but here is the clencher, the pasture was rented out about 20 years ago to my neighbor when dad was still alive, i went down in the pasture a couple months back and the neighbors son, who live next to me, had built a playhouse for his twin boys on MY property on one of my stock tanks, without so much as a word, I called the dad/renter and told him i wanted it off the property, and for the kids and grandkids to stay off as well, son couldn't understand why i had a problem with it, these folks own lots of property in town, residential and commercial rental properties!!!!

I told him i didn't want the liability of his kids or others getting hurt on my property and that was it. He moved the bldg to his property, along a stock tank that is divided by a fence, part mine and part his. I noticed the other day that he has lawn furniture and a fire pit set up for these 10 yr old twins, who have atv's and motor bikes to play with, so i went out and killed the grass around my out bldgs in case they try to burn the country off.

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"Agriculture is our wisest pursuit, because it will in the end contribute most to real wealth, good morals, and happiness."
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1787

The only person that is allowed on our property when we're not home is the USDA inspector who has my both verbal and written approval to park at the bottom of our mile long, 16% grade driveway and walk up to inspect our livestock. The inspections are suppose to be random, so him calling me in advance for an appointment doesn't work because he wants to see that my animals have clean water and proper facilities without me knowing he is stopping by. And I'm OK with that because my animals are always properly cared for and I don't care when he comes by.

We had a next door neighbor who we invited over to see some livestock we just purchased one time - just to be friendly. Her reply shocked us! She told us that she, and some of her friends, had already come by to see the livestock while we were not home. I was really uncomfortable about that due to liability issues.

Maybe it is just me, but if someone is on our property, I want to know about it and be there (unless I give permission otherwise). Paranoid perhaps, or just overly cautious. But unless you have video cameras, in this day of litigation, it would be their word if someone got hurt and you would be paying.

Plus, it is just creepy to have people wandering around your place and poking through your stuff when you aren't home.

CindyOR

I think you responded normally. I would be peeved if someone wandered around my property when they felt they wanted to.
As to the AG salesman, how would you have known it was him at first? You wouldn't have. You said you were laying down with a migrane, Im sure at first getting up after sleeping you probably were not aware of who it was. First reaction is to protect yourself and your property. I think what you did was normal.

Having been born and raised in Iowa I can tell you that 97% of people mean no harm. If you advertised pups then expect visitors. I myself would not intrude if no one is at home but many will. I advertised some German Sheperd pups once and got a call from some unknown from my same county who was calling me from my front yard when I was 25 miles away asking me where should he put the 50 bucks for the pup he was taking. That is Iowa more or less. Not saying it is right or wrong. Just gives folks a reason to inspect your place. That is why I don't advertise anymore. Hehe. Expect some of that from country folks though and expect the opposite from city people more or less. Just my take having been around a few s&%tholes in the world......

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We have now officially entered the twilight zone.

When we first moved into our house in MS, I was sitting in our breakfast room with my 2 youngest girls ( 2 and 4) when I saw someone SLINKING around the back of the house. I looked out the front and didn't see a vehicle, so I stuck the girls in my room and I went outside with a double barrelled 12 gauge. The guy swore he was the meter reader. He kinda wanted to get belligerent with me about it, but backed down when he figured out I meant business. I told him I didn't care who he was, when he came to my house, park his truck where it could be seen from the front door, and act like he actually had business being where he was, because he was acting like a sneak thief, and we'd have no problems if he did as I asked. If not, we'd have a big problem. As it was, he had parked where it could not be seen, was crouched down to go under a window, and was lucky that I didn't have PMS that day. He just smiled and said he'd remember to do just that. I lived there for 6 years, and only 1 more time did he park where I couldn't see it from the front door. A few years later, after 9/11, a guy that looked middle eastern was looking at my power pole in the back yard, and he got the same thing. I guess the power co was expecting that though, because he had a clipboard with information and a badge, but no uniform that was discernible at a distance.

I welcome visitors, probably a little too well, but if I get a heeby jeeby vibe from them, I am not too hospitable.

To think that there is FEDERAL LAW, UNITED STATES CODE to deal with trespassing on private property is ludicrous. It is state law that deals with such things.

I think the OP is well within his right to protect his home and possessions. I also think you would be a very unhappy and unhealthy person if you attempted to cross a fence onto private land in most parts of this country spewing that nonsense about your "right" to be there.

Google has made the common man a friggin lawyer...great!

Exactly right. Where did I say otherwise?


What I did say were the following:

"In many if not most states, that is exactly what it means for land to be unposted. While I would appreciate the courtesy of someone asking permission, if I do not post my land according to the legal requirements, it is in fact open for anyone to hunt without permission."

"The liability question is interesting, and like all property law questions, will probably depend on your state law."

"That's just my state. Your mileage may vary."

"But it kills me when people do one of two things. First is assuming that they don't need to follow the legal posting requirements in their state in order to post their land."

Reading: It's fundamental.

A top 20 law school made this common man a friggin lawyer. Granted it was a while ago and I don't practice anymore (though now I'm in real estate development, where the law of trespass does come up a bit), but I'm still a member of the bar.

What made you a lawyer?

Seems to me, as far as hunters go......if you have a desire to participate in the sport, maybe you should save up your pennies and obtain ownership or co-ownership/membership (like in a hunting group where they will go and buy a huge acreage for their members use) in a property that is suitable for the pursuit of that particular activity?

We have a neighbor that has something around a good half dozen hunting dogs. Their property is a little under 2 acres and is long and skinny.

USED to have our permission to traverse our place as long as the dogs did not bother our livestock. We removed said permission when it became apparent that he doesn't have his dogs very well trained for them supposing to be hunting dogs.

Another neighbor used to let him keep traps on his place, but when the neighbor decided to do something different with his acreage the hunter neighbor ignored the repeated requests to remove the traps. So those got bushhogged down.

I'm not sure if he uses the dogs to hunt anymore....all they seem to do is bark alot.

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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons...for you are crunchy and good with ketchup!

From the NYS DEC website: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8371.html

Q. Must I post to keep people off my property?

A. No. Trespassing is illegal even on unposted property, unless it is unimproved, apparently unused and unfenced (or not otherwise enclosed to exclude intruders.) Even on vacant land, a written notice delivered in person (or by certified mail with a signed receipt, etc.) to any person, in the name of the landowner or authorized party, containing a description of the premises and a warning of restrictions which apply has the same effect, for that person, as if the land were posted with those restrictions. Likewise, anyone asked to leave the premises, posted or not, by the landowner, occupant or other authorized person, must do so immediately.


Seems to me there is very little land in NYS privately owned that is unimproved, apparently unused and unfenced (or not otherwise enclosed to exclude intruders.) So I don't see an open access policy being able to be used too often here. While you can argue it being a 300 year old tradition, in real life it's not often available for someone taking a hike to fall back on.


Jennifer

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-Northern NYS

The vast majority of land in New York State is unimproved, just as in all states.

Unused doesn't mean that no one ever uses it. It means that it is not actively being used. The woods on your backlot are unused unless there is an active logging operation or something similar.

Unfenced is self explanatory. Most land in NY is unfenced.

In real life, NY has a presumption of open access, and it would absolutley be available for someone taking a hike to fall back on.

If you don't believe me, call the police and say that someone has been hiking through your land. I guarantee they will say, "Post no trespassing signs."

If you tell people to leave, and they don't, they'll be arrested for trespassing, because they will unlawfully be on the land of another.

If you legally post your land, and people come on it, they'll be arrested for trespassing, because they will unlawfully be on the land of another.

If you fence your land, and people come on it, they'll be arrested for trespassing, because they will unlawfully be on the land of another.

But if you do none of the above, and people come on your land, they will be told to leave but will not be arrested. Because they are not committing the crime of trespassing.

I post lots of scary handmade signs. Most people either decide that what they wanted wasn't worth it or they stay in their car and honk. My wife is embarrassed of my signs when company comes over but we both agree that it's quite effective.

You said otherwise in the quote that I'll qoute again for you. Reading...or remembering what you said and NOT contradicting yourself: It's fundamental.

I was not aware the WWW had a bar. I'm NOT a lawyer but I know a hack when I see one.

Did ya make the one that says "Trespassers will be shot...survivors will be shot again!"?

Missouri has two classes of tresspassing.

Simple tresspassing on unposted land (a misdeminor) and felony tresspassing on posted land (note that is is just called felony tresspassing--it is actually a class A misdeminor punishable up to 1 year in jail).