How much is enough?

5 acres could do it okay, it all depends on your plan.

We have 150 acres, in two parcels. 100 acres in one parcel we got for $300/acre and the second parcel for $900/acre. Thick forested with river frontage.

So it does limit what we can do on it.

You can do a lot with 1 acre of garden.

But crops for big livestock will require many acres.

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I'm with the "more is better" crowd. We have five horses and they are in a 13 acre pasture right now. It ain't big enough for five horses! You need a minimum of three acres per horse. Where you're looking, you will have to buy hay in the winter. We have 96 acres and a good part of it is cut for hay twice a year.

Also, unless the five acres is surrounded by forest, you'll have neighbors...close neighbors. We have neighbors on one side of us that are to close. Fortunately, the rest of the property around us is in a flood plane and is zoned agricultural only so we'll never have more neighbors.

Hubby and I bought our property in our 40's. We both have health issues. We don't have any problem managing our property. It's all in how you consider management! We converted a large portion of our property to a wetlands project and planted 33 acres in hardwoods. The portion of our property that is in hay is maintained by a local dairyman who gives us enough hay for our horses in exchange for us allowing him to cut and use the rest (we get three round bales every year...more if we wanted). The rest is established woods (which supplies us with firewood every year from downed trees), horses pasture, barn, garden, chicken pen, yard and house.

Your plans will more than fit on five acres, but you really need to reconsider if five acres is enough to keep neighbors at bay. From my personal experience, it isn't.

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That 12 x 25 garden would be .0089 of an acre, actually. A .2 acre would be close to 100 by 100 feet.

Sorry, the farmer in me, we know the square foot of an acre by heart.


--->Paul

One thing about horses....they do better with a friend. Two horses are better than one. You could do one horse and a goat, donkey, or mule. You could have the animals you want on three to five acres but you'll have to purchase hay and feed. That's expensive. Around here, it'd cost at least $100/month to purchase hay and feed per horse.

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Moms don't look at things like normal people.
-----DD

I had bypass surgery in February. I have some other things that haven't been diagnosed yet, but other than that I'm in decent heallth. I just don't know how much I can push myself when it comes to hard physical labor. I guess I'll find out. I'll just make sure I have enough life insurance to pay for the land. And who knows? Maybe some regular effort will help me to feel better. Thanks for all of the replies. I didn't expect such a large response. I really appreciate all of the input.

Nomad

Here's my devils advocate position. I have a different perspective on this, because I don't intend to support myself financially off my land. I have a job I plan to keep, and I have to design my property to suit what I have time and money to manage. So of the 16 acres I own, I'm only using 3 acres for myself, and the rest is farmed by the guy who farms my mother's land.

On my 3 acres there's plenty of room for chickens, rabbits, a bigger garden than I could manage, and a small orchard of semi-dwarf trees. There's even room for a large pen for few dwarf goats if I decide to commit to that, and they can browse in the trees along the water for fun and variety. There's room for a big shed and carport that will include a workshop. The house is fairly big, too. With this set up I will be able to raise a lot of my own food (granted I'm a single lady) and live in surroundings that nourish my soul and will provide lots of fun for future grandchildren. [Now I do have wetlands all around the farm, so I have oysters and crab and fish and wild waterfowl without having to plunk a pond in there too. I know I'm a lucky woman!!! ]

I had a *half acre* lot in suburbia at one time, and there was plenty of room for a bigger garden than I could tend, and for chickens or rabbits too if zoning would have allowed it. For many people who have to keep a real job, that's plenty of work right there.

Now I fantasize about keeping mini cattle, and in that case I'd need to plant the rest of the land in pasture. But if all I owned were the three acres, and I found myself bored and pining for cattle I could always sell the place and buy more land farther out.

More land is more work, and more expense if you don't have the time to work it, and also more heartache if you have to look out and see it going wild because you don't have the time or money to tend it. So I say don't feel pressured to buy a Hummer when you'll be pretty happy in a Saturn, and able to make the payments comfortably. If you live on a small acreage for a while and find you really *need* more, you're not stuck there. ESPECIALLY if you turn a little acreage into something beautiful and well laid out that someone else would want.

I absolutely agree with the folks about big livestock. Adding a horse changes EVERYTHING. When you think about the cost of a horse in terms of the acreage needed, barn needed, etc, it might make sense to pay someone else to keep the horse on their land. A cousin of mine has maybe three acres on the road that are pretty much devoted to pasture for one (spoiled) horse. That's almost my whole homestead plot!

To be fair, shouldn't they also pay to buy the extra 4 acres of land? ;-)

My daughter explained to me yesterday that having children means you buy them stuff and you don't get anything back. I'm pretty sure that's correct, but it's definitely not what I signed up for! lol

I have to go, so I am not going to read both pages yet.

Has anyone mentioned zoning? In some areas, you need 5 acres before you can have any kind of farm critter, including chickens. But, every area is different, so, why don't you call the county courthouse and ask about any zoning regulations regarding what you need to be allowed to keep livestock?

Gotta go!

Terri

I'll chime in here because I do have horses, have raised them and ridden for 40 years.

5 acres is plenty for one horse if laid out properly. Depending upon where you live climate wise, you do not have to have a barn per se. A three sided run in shed with a proper overhang should be sufficient, make sure it has good drainage.

I have 32 acres. Don't use but 12. Rest is in timber. No time to maintain the whole place, but even 12 acres keeps me plenty busy with mowing, fence mending, weed eating, and other maintenance. Remember, the more land you have and use, the more upkeep! Fertilizer, herbicides, fencing, etc. adds up.

I have 3 horses here on about 10 acres of the 12 I use. I have had as many as 20 as most were stalled show horses that I boarded and people did not want them "out". If you stall, you will run up high feed bills. The 3 I have now cost me less than 200. a month for hay and feed, salt, loose minerals and fly spray. They stay out during the night, up during the day due to heat and flies. I feed a feed thru fly control and practice composting of manure.

I don't care to try to grow feed for my horses, never have cared for it. I buy their feed, others may want to grow their own hay and feed, but it will take much more land than my 32 acres and equipment as well. Easier to buy what I need. I will say the more pasture you have, the less hay you will need, though depending on the type of horse and it's age, you may have to feed grain year round despite having excellent pastures. Your pasture will need to be managed to control weeds and be fertilized to optimize grazing. You will also need to bush hog occasionally as horses are picky about what they will and will not eat and so some areas will grow up tall while others are eaten to the dirt. Just the way horses are.

You can get a horse a companion like a small donk, or a goat (make sure horse likes goats or horse may kill goat) or a small pony.

Horses can be rough on ground when it is wet. Have a small area set aside as a "sacrifice paddock" during the winter to take the pressure off your pasture. Horses have sharp hooves and will tear up the ground if it stays wet for most of the winter. Most horse owners have such an area where the horses go out in winter so they don't tear up the pastures.

Just things to think about. Oh and you'll need horse safe fence as well. Something to consider. I use board fence with 16 feet cattle panels and some electric for temp fence. I can move the electric if needed.

hope this helps..tell daughters owning a horse is more than paying the purchase price..it's that daily stuff that gets expensive: hay and feed, salt block, loose minerals, shoes or trims every 6 weeks, tack, de-worming, vaccinations, coggins test, dental and they should have at least $1,000 saved back for emergency vet work (horses are suicides looking for a place to happen). A case of colic can run upwards of 600. if it is simple, if not colic surgery can run 5,000 (I carry insurance on my expensive horses just for that reason). Even a puncture wound that needs stitching can cost 200.00 plus so they will need money put aside. Nothing worse that not treating an animal just because you didn't think ahead and put the money aside. Major vet bills can run thousands and that is when you decide to either continue with treatment or put the horse down. Putting one down is not cheap either depending on where you live. They will need other things as well, like fly spray, brushes, halter and lead, saddle and bridle and blanket. So I hope for their sakes they can get a good after school job and summer job (I had both!) as my parents paid for my first horse but I had to pay for the upkeep and trust me, it wasn't easy to work for my horse and keep my grades to a B and find time to sleep and have a social life. Well my social life revolved around horses, but there sure wasn't time for anything else - still isn't really!

__________________
Be yourself - no one can tell you that you're doing it wrong!

Oh, and be sure to read the Have More Plan!!! It's a free document, was a booklet published in the forties I think? about setting up a small homestead. It describes setups for various small holdings, and talks through all the different objectives you might have and how to set your place up to achieve those objectives. It also talks very specifically about what you can do on various sized homesteads, starting with an acre (I believe?).

Anyway, it's as good as any book I've ever bought on the subject of how to lay out a homestead, and it's free Here's the link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8220882/Th...ountry-Living-

I cut and pasted this post into an e-mail and sent it to my oldest daughter. It would make life a lot simpler if she decided she really didn't need a horse. Thanks for an insightful post.

Nomad

Thanks for the link. I already joined and downloaded the book. If I had more ink and paper I'd print it out. It looks like it will be very informative reading.

Nomad

I agree with what Sidepasser wrote. Excellent discussion of what happens with large animals. I like that $1000 up front idea, that will take care of many wannabe horse owners.

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We will meet in the golden city, called the New Jerusalem,
All our pain and all our tears will be no more.....

I talked with my daughter this afternoon to see her reaction to the e-mail I sent her. I think the harsh reality of never being financially able to have a horse finally hit her. She seems resigned but I know she will never stop dreaming. I guess that's not so bad.

Nomad

If I were you I would let her work off lessons at a lesson barn. What an education she will get and it will separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Find a good, reputable lesson barn and go with her (they won't talk to a minor w/o an adult present if they are at all reputable) and see if she can begin lessons there, and work off some of the lessons by mucking stalls, cleaning tack, washing horses, etc.

Make sure you get a WRITTEN agreement of what she will be required to do in exchange for lessons, some barns are very equitable, others will work her like a slave for one lesson a week. BTW - lessons are not cheap at reputable barns, I pay 70.00 per hour if I haul out to a big name trainer and 20.00 an hour for my personal trainer who comes here to the barn. Of course he comes nearly every day, so that is about 500. per month regular as clockwork on the first of the month, but he also rides my horses three days a week to keep them going and I take one lesson a week and he rides a sale horse for me as well.

Lesson prices depend on quality of trainer - I would figure 25 - 50 an hour. She will need to arrive 30 minutes before each lesson in order to groom and tack up and be ready to ride at her appointed time. You don't say how old your daughter is, but I would attend several lessons with her to make sure everything is "kosher" (there are pedophiles in the horse world just like the real world); and also never, ever allow a trainer to hurl insults or abuse at your daughter..(been there, done that). There is a difference in "you ride like a flopping fish" and "you are too stupid to even think of sitting a horse". I've had both hurled at me verbatim. I fired the "too stupid to ride" trainer (big name Olympian from Europe) and continued with the "flopping fish" trainer who was telling me the truth without being insulting personally.

One thing I almost forgot: Grades. When I taught lessons professionally I had each child sign an agreement - yep even the tiny tots in lower school, that grades could never be less than a C. Some kids get so caught up in riding that their schoolwork suffers - no lessons if grades are not kept at C or above. The trainer should reinforce that as horses are a great HOBBY but won't get you into a job unless you are an exercise rider (not a good long term plan, been there done that, got the injuries). Keep those grades up and horses can lead to scholarships - through 4H, AQHA, etc. for college.

Let her take lessons for a year and then decide if she really wants a horse and make her commit to a year. She needs to hang through burning sun, freezing winter, rain, mud, snow, and the absolutely beautiful days that are joy to ride through.

Never let her get "overhorsed"..by that I mean don't let trainer put her on some green bean horse in order to train horse..(been there got a hospital bill). Horses should be older, quiet, well trained and tolerant of beginner mistakes.

Last but not least, first article of equipment she needs to purchase: A RIDING HELMET that fits. The helmet should be tight enough that if she raises her eyebrows the helmet goes with the motion. ASTM approved!
Second article: Boots with at least a 3/4 to 1 inch heel.

Other than that - don't make her give up her dream, let her pursue it in a different way. After a year, if she is still horse crazy..then allow her to half lease a horse so she can get the "idea" of horse ownership w/o the complete and total responsibility. In other words, she will pay 1/2 board, 1/2 shoe fees, etc. and get to ride horse 3-4 days per week (usually 3 days as horse needs one day of rest and other party gets 3 days). This gives a person a chance to experience ownership without total responsibility for all the "necessities" and see how that goes. Move from there to a full lease, then finally to full ownership.

I know these things because I learned the hard way, plus taught lessons for more years than I can remember. I always suggested to parents: lessons first, then 1/2 lease, then full lease, then finally ownership. Gives many outs until you are really comfortable with the amount of time and dollar committment ownership requires and yes, it is a slow road, but one that allows for mistakes without costing the HORSE.

Send this email to your daughter and then have a frank discussion. She is welcome to pm for more information

Sorry to trainwreck your thread, but I love children and horses and want both to be happy - heck I would be happy if every person on this board owned a horse and was responsible, but because not everyone is suited for ownership, I try to lay it out on the line so reality will sink in before a long term and expensive committment is made.

__________________
Be yourself - no one can tell you that you're doing it wrong!

I was continuing my land search earlier today and actually found some not too far away. Most were beyond my means, but a few were suitable financially. But here's the funny part...they had a restriction of 2 swine or 3 fowl. But they didn't seem to care how many cows, horses, goats or llamas you have. I can see the swine because of odor and most won't allow them at all, but fowl??? Why would I be limited to three chickens on a 5 acre lot? And who is running around counting them anyway? I didn't see anything about rabbits, so I guess they would be unlimited.


Nomad

Years ago, while I was working and going to college, we knew a few ladies who either had horse-boarding farms or else who worked on horse-boarding farms. One lady I recall distinctly lived in a tack room.

From what I observed even then, was that they still needed an outside source of full time income to support themselves, while they took in folk's horses.

Last summer when oil prices climbed so much, there were a lot of folks dumping their horses for cheap. Four of our neighbors all bought horses last summer. No doubt they had been long held dreams. And after buying them, even more horses 'appeared' overnight in their pastures.

So long as you can afford to feed horses, they can be wonderful to have.

I have owned 3 acres for over 20 years and have always dreamed of having my very own horse! I never thought I had enough land nor could ever afford a barn.

The year I turned 50, my sister was horse shopping and asked me to go along. We looked at a lot of different horses. I was shocked at how most were housed. Small muddy paddocks with small cheap looking 3 sided sheds.

It was an eye opener! I realized I could do much better! I went home and started planning. I fenced in a little over an acre with T-posts and electric rope for under $500. Then built a very nice 12x12 stall for under $500.

It took a while to find the perfect horse, but its now 3 years later and I still love every minute of it! Yes, I must buy hay year around and clean the small pasture of manure twice a week. But to me it is relaxing.

This year I am removing some trees, enlarging the pasture and have added another 12x12 stall on to the first one. My sister has decided to keep her horse here so we can ride together!

The 2 horses have plenty of room to canter and play, they get plenty of attention and run to see us. Even when I get the small pasture enlarged to 2 acres it will need to be cleaned regularly and I will always have to feed hay year around.

It can be done and both you and the horses can be very happy. It is just a lot more work. I do have a nice large compost pile, I use the compost in the garden, around all bushes and trees.

My garden, bushes and trees are doing better then they ever have and I never buy fertilizer!