farming practices that are illegal for us right now

A problem those who want to make things 'simpler' will discover is a LOT of people(even people here who are all about being self sufficient and getting back to the land) WANT government safety nets....even when it is obvious the safety nets no longer function well(not sure if they ever functioned well).

People WANT their nanny/parents(government) to protect them,all the while whining and complaining about it.

As to what can't we do anymore....

Cut our trees down without permission.
Build a small pond on our own land.
Build without having various inspections/permits to protect us from ourselves.

You know, my extension agent will come out to my farm and give me advice. For free. Why not do something like that to help folks get a "Grade A" or "Grade C" setup?

I think there are lots of people that can do a real good job of selling bacon that they butchered themselves. And, yes, there are folks that can do a really awful job.

Rather than banning it completely, how about a solution for everybody? How about something so that the responsible farmer can still sell that bacon?

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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In a world where we just trade among the people within walking distance, your theroy might work. It would be a form of shuning. The Amish use it quite effectively.
A chain of gas stations had their pumps set up to short the customers. They didn't go out of business. The Department of Ag, weights and measures section caught the scam and they were put out of business. A few farmers were selling TB infected cows. They didn't know it. The Department of Ag discovered the problem and tested every cow in the state, quarintined the infected herds, paid the farmer for his cows and had the infected herds killed. You never would have tracked down and eliminated TB without government help. Word of mouth just wouldn't cut it.

"How about something so that the responsible farmer can still sell that bacon?"
Great idea, now how do we determine who is responsible and who isn't?
Is it based on good intentions? How about meeting a standard and regular inspections? Oh, that's right, we have that system already. But who will pay for those inspections. I've got an idea. The inspectors could require a license and the cost of the license would cover the costs of inspections. Oh, that's right, we have that already, too.

There is a lot of food produced in this country. There are times, between sample tests that contamination is occurs. When that happens, all product back to the last negative test is recalled. Not perfect, but there isn't much in this world that is.

I've heard other people complain when they take their beautiful grass fed steer to slaughter and they get these boxes of tough meat and blame the butcher. Maybe it happens, but mostly it is just how grass fed beef tastes. Grain is the most expensive part of a cows diet. Cattle farmers don't do it for the fun of it. They do it because the public wants tasty, tender beef. Grain does that. The market says so.

For those people that want to buy only inspected food, they have that.

In this very thread, somebody asked if they could buy five pounds of bacon from me. But it is illegal.

My philosophies on food are radically different from the norm.

My pigs get lots of acreage and stuff to forage. They are not kept in smelly pens. And the feed is beyond organic. Polyculture feed. I want to sell food that has been 100% under my control, so I can vouch for the quality.

But that is forbidden unless I shell out for a USDA inspected kitchen.

Have you had a chance to read Salatin's latest book?

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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One aspect of the nanny state most don't think about is the cost. Each one of those stupid laws requires a whole bureaucracy to enforce it, which means hundreds if not thousands of government employees not producing anything except headaches and a larger tax bill for those like us. Happy Tax day. BTW. Mind you Montana isn't that bad which is one of the top reasons I live here.

I didn't have a single inspection of the house I designed, engineered and built this last summer. It held 3 feet of snow over this winter and didn't fall down and kill any of us. However, if I was stupid enough to live in something I wasn't sure wouldn't kill me, my death would have been good for the gene pool. Which, incidentally, seems like it's due for a whole tanker truck of chlorine.

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Haypoint, people have always DIED..they do it by the hundreds daily..from from eating bad food that was inspected..uhm peanut product anyone, how about some pistachios? Maybe a few burgers from Jack in the Box? Want some tainted peppers? What about a few lbs. of tainted lettuce? Maybe some salmonella tainted beef?

That's just in the past year that people have gotten sick, products have been recalled and no way, no how, is every bit of food going to be inspected by those so called "big boy producers".

Yes people died in the old days..heck they die NOW. One thing is for certain, none of us are getting out of this world alive and I'd rather take a chance with the nice gentleman that sold me goat's milk illegally (he's dead now, I'm the only one that can attest to his illegal sales and I ain't giving his name to nobody) that kept my kid healthy. Sure I knew it was illegal, you think I CARED? No what I wanted was some goat milk for my kid. My kid didn't get sick, didn't die, goats were healthy, milk barn was spotless, goats were vaccinated. I educated myself enough to ask these things and he provided proof gladly. Money for him and peace of mind for me.

When it gets down to depending on the government to protect me in all situations, I'd rather.just.not. They can't possibly do a great job due to lack of personnel and most that work for the government can't keep up with the mountains of new laws, new requirements, etc. that are put on the books, much less inspect. Do you know how many inspectors there are? Sadly not near enough and it is well documented. So what does the gov. do? Depends on the the testing the companies do..ha! The fox is enjoying the hen house now.

Personally, if I take it upon myself to buy a bit of bacon, some fresh eggs, and a gallon milk then I take it upon myself to be aware of good farm practices and safe handling. If I see sick goats, runty snot nosed chickens and a pig eating a dead cow..nope. But if I see bouncy goats grazing, chickens humming and a clean hen house and a fat, sassy pig eating shelled corn or pig food..and the processing room is clean, I'll take my chances.

We don't get out of this life alive..time to quit being so fearful and wanting our mammy state to take care of us from cradle to grave. No wonder gov. is so big..got so many babies to look after.

sorry OP - some things I can't do:

Teach riding lessons without having 5 million in insurance to protect me from possible lawsuits.
Board a neighbor's horse without a boarding license and twice annual inspections
Buy hay and then resell it without a broker's permit
Sell eggs away from the farm and those must be in a new container with my farm name on it
Sell veggies without a permit
No pig raising within 900 feet of a property line
No horse barns or shelters within 200 feet of a property line
Manure must be composted or hauled off premises weekly

Burying a horse requires a permit in my county, no large animal or small may be "dragged to the back forty" for the wild life to lunch on.

need I go on?

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Be yourself - no one can tell you that you're doing it wrong!

Yes.

This is the very sort of thing I would like to make a really, really long list for.

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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Wow, it seems many of you live in places that are far stricter than where I live!
Out here, we can dig ponds and ditches, and it's encouraged because it's dry. I can plant trees and cut them down. I can sell my veggies at a farmer's market (as long as they're properly packaged). I don't know the regulations about wetlands, but I do have quite a few here, probably 20% of my land. I will be digging those out into ponds, and lining them with rocks and such. I want to encourage the geese and ducks, but swampy areas are just useless! I need ponds, especially for irrigation.
I can't sell or give away raw milk, no matter how it's labelled.
I can't sell or give away meat that I've processed myself.
I can't keep bees without a license.

I'm not sure what else I can't do, but apparently I can't shoot at an old car either.

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1 Tim 3:2-3 "Preach the Word. Be ready in season and out. Convince, Rebuke, Exhort with all long-suffering and teaching."

Can you shoot at a new one?

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The internet - fueling paranoia and misinformation since 1873.

And, to cover oneself, you'd need insurance... add the insurance cost into the purchase price, and where's the profit? btw...I'm agreeing with!

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OP...
I think people are thinking of two different things... no laws (that I know of) that dictate what you, as a farmer, can do on your land, as far as food. It's when you enter the world of business (selling to others) that rules and regulations come into play.

Drinking DDT or any other poison (or putting it on your land) might be legal, but that doesn't mean it's morally right or wise. The govt. doesn't have to tell me what bad things I shouldn't do.

And, selling some items, off the farm, never made sense to me... such as bacon, since it's been mentioned already. There's not that much bacon on a hog. Processing with the necessary chemicals cure the bacon and the time involved, never made much sense...and then selling this to others??? Of course, people taking a hog to the butcher, and paying a premium for a few meals worth of bacon, never made much sense.

some of that didn't make sense... my tax preparing sucked out part of my soul...

If you want to get into 'business'... follow the same rules business does...

of, eliminate the world of lawyers, and lawsuits... if you sell bad food, and someone dies, folks won't buy from you anymore...and you might have to dodge bullets from the survivors... life would be much simpler without lawsuits... for me, risking my everything on a sack of pennies... not worth it.

I raise things to be eaten... right here on the farm. Luckily, I live in the Free State of Texas... no one's ever told me what to do and not to do...

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

You can sell shares on your cow or goat. People can spend so much $$ to buy a share and get so much milk per week. One lady we have close to us has $14 per share and it allows you to something like 2 quarts a week.
Then they aren't buying the milk because they own part of the cow.

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This is one way to get round such silly laws....same could be used for almost anything you produce...

One thing about laws,there are always loopholes.

Ummm, I think you're thinking of another grocery store. The Food Lion that is based out of Salisbury NC is still running strong, and honestly, around here, they have the best meat and prices around. At the store I used to work for, the meat market manager has thrown large pieces of beef away because they just didn't look right. He sent a letter to corporate and the company no longer uses that brand of meat.

I guess the rural and farming way of life still rules down here where I am though. Even though our state has regulations, there are ways to get around them, and 90% of the people here do get around them.

All I have to do to sell eggs for eating is to put them in a carton and cover up all information on the carton with my info. Name, town, phone number, and contents, that's it.
If I sell rabbit meat to people, they buy the rabbit before it is butchered, and I clean it for free. Either that or I sell it for the raw feeding program for dogs, and if the people eat it, well, all that I have to say is that they ate dog food.
There is a law against selling raw milk, but you can sell it for animal consumption or give it away. I'll be buying a milk animal as soon as we can move to a larger plot of land.

If the state wants to pass rules and regulations on food products here, well then, I'll just eat what I produce and sell off the adult animals that I don't need. Either that or just have a very well stocked freezer!

Emily in NC

If I live in a subdivision with covenents, then I have to build my house and outbuildings to suit them. I actually live in a zoned agricultural area and had to get a building permit and inspection for a large shed that got brought in on the back of a truck. Supposedly, it is for my safety. BS! Farms are exempt. So, does the county hope all farmers get inferior sheds that cave in on them? Or, does the farm lobby recognize that codes and inspections are simply a tax effort. I cant have a garge door on my shed with a plywood floor because it is "unsafe." Again, BS! Farmers are exempt from this, and I know of at least two county owned structures with garge doors and plywood floors. So again, does the governement wish death and fire upon farmers and county employees, or is it just a tax scheme and an excuse to put more inspectors on the taxpayer's teat?

If I am building a house and have a mortgage, the bank is going to require an inspection. If I am paying cash, and i am not confident in my judgement of safe building practices, then I ought to hire an inspector. But, if I don't think I need an inspection, why is it the nanny government's business?

The government is NOT to protect us from ourselves.

Two books come to mind:

Joel Salatin - "Everything I want to do is illegal"

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Susta...Interview.aspx

Linda Faillace - "Mad Sheep"

http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/madsheep

I've read the book by Mr. Salatin...funny, informative...sad though. His points are well taken and shed much light on the 'system'. Definately a good read if you have the opportunity.

Amazon sent me an e-mail flyer advertising the book "Mad Sheep: The True Story Behind the USDA's War on a Family Farm". I haven't had the chance to read much more than the preview but it looks interesting:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aOP...um=1#PPA110,M1

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CJ

That was my point.

No USDA kitchen regs here in MN. You can sell jams, jellies, and pickled stuff as long as you put your name and address on the jar.

MN also allows raw milk sales as long as the customer comes to the farm and uses their own container and the producer doesn't advertise. Raw milk purchasers also have the right to "inspect the premises" themselves.

Building codes vary from county to county. In Wadena county, outhouses are still allowed and the county extension office gives out plans for them. The Co. doesn't do the Uniform Building code and lets you build & live in whatever. but you have to pass inspection to sell.

Try this on for size. Here in Texas if I raise a hog for MY OWN USE and want to have it professionally butchered, I have to go to a USDA inspected facility, regardless of the fact that I won't be selling any of the meat.

If I shoot a FERAL HOG, any and all of the professional butchers can legally do whatever I want with the hog - NO USDA INSP requirements at all.

GO FIGURE.

Its purely to keep me from raising my own meat and buying the crap from stores. If they make it hard enough, most people won't bother.

How in the world is taking your steer or hog to a USDA approved processing plant Keeping YOU from Raising your own critter to eat???????
I have been doing just that now for many years Raising my own and getting it butchered at a USDA inspected processing plant. Geesh what is so hard about doing things like that that are on the books for everyones safety and benefit? Nothing has stopped me from doing just this at all have 2 processing plants one within in 6 miles another one within 9 miles~! No biggy at all.

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