registering chicks?

The bird flu infection path was not the same as the migratory bird path. Back when we debated bird flu into the ground there was a post showing a site with the 2 overlapping.

Where are the details of what the govt will do to stop the spread of diagnosed illnesses in the wording for NAIS???? There is nothing listed other than traceback details.

Now if the ptb were asking for id from everyone who bought a raw chicken or other raw meat so they could be notified in case the meat was contaminated it might make sense.

Another reason your back-yard contamination theory doesn't hold water is that when you buy brand new chicks from big hatchery, they haven't been exposed to anything that could give them bird flu. Also, these chicks come from your supposedly sterile big barn corporations which are cleaner than chicks from a back-yard breeder. So why would the new "safe" chicks need to be registered????

Avian Influenza, AKA Bird Flu, is a potentially dangerous, but obscure poultry disease. It is not common to the US and is only one of a host of diseases that infect poultry.

DJ in WA asked about Bird Flu and I responded. I hope my answers to those questions didn't mislead anyone to believe it is the only disease concern for poultry owners.

If you can grasp the concept that having the names and addresses of raw chicken purchasers protects those purchasers, think about the same sort of protection for the purchasers of live chickens. Some folks can't understand how trace back/ trace forward works and I seem to be unable to explain it in a way that can be accepted by those that chose not to believe.

When you buy chicks from a big hatchery you are not buying from a huge factory farm with bio-security protocols. You are buying from a big company that buys from many small breeders. Some big hatcheries buy eggs from all over, some buy chicks from all over and some orchestrate the delivery of chicks to you from many different locations.

Are we talking about giving the feed mill your name and address or are we talking about registering your chicks?

Just look thru the Poultry section here at Homesteadingtoday. Small flocks have diseases. Great efforts have been made over the past hundred years and poultry diseases are much less common because of that effort. Limiting those efforts under the excuse that you have an important right to raise your chickens with complete anonymity seems silly to me.

DJ in WA found this information:"A.Chickens, ducks and other poultry in Southeast Asia are often allowed to run at large in the villages in which people live. Children and other family members tend small flocks of birds to provide eggs and meat. Nearly all of the human cases in Thailand and Vietnam are associated with these types of “village chickens.” "
In Asia they use the term "village Chickens" In the US and other countries, the common term is "free range"

DJ in WA also added another answer" A. The modern type of animal production used in the United States is actually more protective of birds and their health than more traditional systems. In the United States, chickens and turkeys are usually raised in enclosed buildings called growout houses. More than 20,000 chickens or 4,000 turkeys are placed in a single building. Yet the health of the poultry flocks today is probably better than it has ever been. This is because of improvements in poultry housing, selective breeding for disease resistance, protection from potential disease carriers such as wild birds and continuous health oversight by poultry veterinarians. In contrast, the “village chickens” in Southeast Asia are raised in the traditional manner that has changed little in hundreds of years. They are fully exposed to the environment and to potential disease carriers, and they have minimal or no access to veterinary medical care. "

Be very careful, DJ in WA, talk like that will get you banned from the Poultry site and make some folks here very angry. Many that post here cling to the belief that home raised free range chickens are exposed to less disease and factory farms are cesspools of disease. When you point out that the opposite is true, you challenge their belief system. Tread carefully.

I fully understand how traceback works. I get that part. You don't seem to get my point that there are no listed protocols for dealing with disease. Yes, AI is rare in the US and no, it is not the only disease carried by poultry. But why does the govt need a database with my name and address when we both know they would be lax in warning poultry owners of any disease potential. With the USDA's history it is very unlikely they would even be able to find the private company which keeps those records in order to notify anyone with susceptible poultry before their birds are contaminated and wiped out. (remember the salmonella tainted peanut butter and how long that factory was distributing contaminated merchandise) If the govt could be trusted with such info and if the govt would have a plan in place for the isolation and testing of suspect animals I would think it might possibly be a good idea. But again, there is no plan for the prevention of the spread of disease. Most of the tainted animal products which have been reported by the FDA and USDA are contamination at the processing center. And even the case of Mad Cow, how long did it take before the test results came back from the downer cow which was by regulation never supposed to go into our food supply in the first place. It took them less time to find and destroy the remaining possibly contaminated cows than it did to get the questionable product off the shelves. Traceback is not the solution. It is just one small step in the prevention of the spread of disease but it is NOT the end solution.

And I don't know why I bother to argue this point with you. You just don't seem to understand my objections even though I have tried my best to spell them out. I assure you I am more vigilant about the health of my animals than the govt can be. None of us wants to see our flocks wiped out by disease. None of us wants to spread disease to anothers flock.

I never asked for complete anonymity, I just don't want the govt to tell me how to run my business. After all, I am not AIG or GM.

The government = people.

People = the government.

Ifpeople work together, a lot can be done.

If people fight each other, little good can be done.

Your opposition is again other people, and seems very un-Christian like, very anti-people.

The govt is just people, trying to get together & do something together. Some people want to get together & have better ways to monitor & protect animals and people from massive outbreaks of rather rare diseases.

The problem is that these diseases are rare in the USA, and we all forget just how devistating they can be if they get a toehold in this country again.

So, some people - like you I guess - want to fly in the face of working together & doing some good.

That is kinda sad.

The govt is trying to set up a background set of programs to help you & I make the world a little safer.

In such a big country, it is difficult for such a program to be perfect & work well with everyone.

So, several programs, and several options, and many questions, have come from people - the govternment - over the past 10 years to try to come up with workable, helpful programs.

Some people - seems like you - are just plain opposed to helping or working with anyone at all, and want to turn your back on other people, don't care about anyone else.

That is unfortunate.

Working together, we could come up with some small steps that could help other people.

Just like laws regulating trash, loud noises, disturbing dust, pollution, lead or other posions in food - these laws & programs will not be perfect, and will not always start out fair to everyone.

But, because something isn't perfect, doesn't mean it doesn't make a better world for most all with a little more work & effort.

The attitude you represent just makes me sad. So many here just don't care about anyone else, and want to turn their backs on the rest of the world. You would rather see disease & epidemics, that try to lift one finger to work out some sort of a plan to prepare.

I don't understand that.

--->Paul

Presently, in Germany when a person turns 14 they have to get an ID to identify themselves that they must carry on their person at all times or they could be fined.

Wow - we really do have to keep standing or we will get knocked down.

__________________
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http://gardening-by-cathy.net
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or rather what is being required of farmers in Wis at the present time? Could you elaborate on this?

Thanks!

__________________
"in returning and rest shall you be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength"

http://gardening-by-cathy.net
http://mysolarenergyplus.net

And now the Cattle ID is under way in WI. just cattle though not other animals yet. As I just renewed my Premises ID for the 4th year as it is easy to do so.
Pretty soon I would think the ID chipping for other critters will get under way but yet not now.I think it is a good thing and can't wait till the Real ID for people comes out. and in June now even going into Canada you MUST have a Passport to get back in the USA. Everything is is going to plans to keep this war on terror under control, in this day in age. And now I heard President Obama will keep the existing wire trapping just like it has been under the former president. Cool. And also President Obama is asking for more money for Iraq war and Afghanistan which he has voted against on the past now he seeing the true light of the situation~! Which is also very good for this country.

__________________
Oh my, dishes yet to wash and dry

See My Pictures at
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0903/arabianknight/

AK, what's your favorite flavor of koolaid?

__________________

Don't give them any ideas there's a rumor afoot here to tax organic grown food, food is currently NOT taxed in Iowa.

__________________
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Joan of Arc

http://www.survivalkitchen.blogspot.com

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I don't think he really cares what flavor it is........he just likes the pretty colors!!!
Besides, when you mix them together, they all taste the same.

Maintaining a huge database isn’t expensive or complicated. The government does have a plan in place for most diseases. Each disease within each species requires a different method of control and the scope of an outbreak is a major determining factor, too. Generally, simply quarantining stops the spread of disease.
If you think the peanut butter caper took too long then write Washington an get funding for more inspectors and more testing.
Livestock disease and contamination at a processing plant are two very separate concerns. As such they have two very different methods of control.
The Mad Cow wasn’t a downer. Mad Cow is a debilitating disease that will eventually result in a cow unable to walk. USDA was able to trace back, quarantine and destroy quickly due to RFID. The meat never made it out of the slaughterhouse. Traceback is one step, perhaps an important step, in the control of livestock diseases.
But this isn’t about Mad Cow, it isn’t about NAIS, it isn’t even about the sale of raw milk. It is about giving the feed store your name and address so IF there were a disease outbreak, they could warn you.
“Presently, in Germany when a person turns 14 they have to get an ID to identify themselves that they must carry on their person at all times or they could be fined.”
Too bad we couldn’t have had that in place before 16,000,000 illegals came to live in the land of milk and honey.
AK sees the flip-flop and calls it as he sees it, no koolaid there, Ladycat.

Thats just ONE thing youre wrong about.

__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I quoted mtnbluet881, "Presently, in Germany when a person turns 14 they have to get an ID to identify themselves that they must carry on their person at all times or they could be fined." So when Bearfootfarm writes:"Thats just ONE thing youre wrong about."
they are refering to mtnbluet881, right? Then Bearfoot farm adds that it is 16 or older, not 14 and then draws the fine line between the requirement between possess and carry. I carry my ID, driver's license, all the time, even when I'm not driving.
If I thought it would be used to sort out the illegals, I'd vote for that requirement here.

OK. We are getting even further off track on this one. We seem to have beaten this issue to death. I get it now.

By giving the guy at the feed mill my address I am turning over my farm to the government that can't find their behind with both hands. These are the early steps that will eventually lead to taxing chicks, your wife's muffin-top and individual ingredients in soda pop. Anyone that recognizes that the guy that won the presidency on change but has adopted the policies that maintain the George Bush status quo are likely koolaid drinkers. Wow, I didn't know.

Just how well has the government regulated anything in our food? They allow imports of crap tainted with melamine from China that poisened our pets & is in many things even baby formula. They can't or won't tell me when Monsato GMO's are in my food, because THEY have deemed them safe. They now label meat (From USA, Canada or Mexico, which one darn it???), but I am supposed to label each one of my backyard chickens & tell them when I bury it or sell it to Joe down the street. So much for consumer choice. THEY have told me what they put in the food is safe, so I have no recourse except not to buy that food. Now they want to make sure I have to buy that food, by making it unaffordable to grow my own. When Tyson & Perdue have to chip every chicken at $68/bird, I will think about chipping mine. Spending $816 every two years to chip my 12 chickens when I replace them will make them unaffordable to have for eggs. All this has to do with NAIS & government control, period. The big Ag companies can put whatever they feel like in our food & the government will not even make them label it so we can choose. It is safe afterall. They let the companies like Monsanto & the makers of the identification equipment write their legislation. Anybody who thinks this is to protect us is nuts. Can't wait until we can only plant "Monsanto Big Red Tasteless Tomato" and all others will be ripped out of the ground. If you believe in the present tactics, then it won't be long until that happens. Unlike the big Ag companies, I will not put my family or friends at risk in a quest for the almighty dollar. By this first step, giving our I.D. numbers when we buy chickens, we are giving government control of our food supply. It's animals now, who knows what later. They already have seeds that can't be saved without penalty of prosecution. If that's what you want, so be it. I am not going along with it.

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Cindy in PA

Peta is probably liking it...the more hoops folks have to jump through, the more likely many will abandon having fowl.

__________________
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow the fields of those who don't."-Thomas Jefferson

Rambler I have to agree with Cindy. There is no need for this kind of intrusion into a process that is the second oldest profession.

"The govt is trying to set up a background set of programs to help you & I make the world a little safer."

This is one of the scariest quotes out there and just reeks of fascism.

"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty."

Benjamin Franklin

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The feed store does not use your name and address to contact you in case of an outbreak, puhlease! If the employees at the feed store don't know WHY such info is being collected you can guarantee they will not be contacting you. Besides, by the time another customer reports the disease and the birds (if available) are tested and the disease is diagnosed any other exposed birds would be long dead and burried.

It is about Mad Cow and it is about NAIS because nobody knows (or is saying they don't know) where the info goes or who wants it. If that doesn't sound like Big Brother to you, nothing will. There are already many reports of people finding out they have a premise id even though they did not sign up for one. It is the way the govt is going around people who are reluctant to sign up for the "voluntary" premise id program. Once everyone with livestock is identified the program could no longer be considered voluntary.

Here's some info from a "big hatchery" where I buy my chicks. They claim bio-security. I think I'll send them your comments and see what they have to say. Interesting that the disease doesn't transfer from hen to chick through the egg, so doesn't matter if you buy eggs elsewhere for hatching.


http://www.hoovershatchery.com/birdflu.html

It is easy for some folks to get stuck on Bird Flu as if it is the only disease of concern. Same for the cattle folks that can't discuss anything except Mad Cow.
Some folks have to turn everything into a NAIS debate.
The USDA doesn't mark meat "Canada, US, or Mexico". The meat processors mark it because the USDA thought you'd want to know where your meat comes from. Come to find out the sheeple don't care, they keep right on buying it with all three countries listed.

"but I am supposed to label each one of my backyard chickens & tell them when I bury it or sell it to Joe down the street."

Not true, you are taking this discussion off into the antiNAIS crazy talk. It is a myth, ain't happening.

"When Tyson & Perdue have to chip every chicken at $68/bird, I will think about chipping mine. Spending $816 every two years to chip my 12 chickens when I replace them will make them unaffordable to have for eggs."

Nice rant, but it just isn't based on anything but made up propaganda from the antiNAIS group.

"When Tyson & Perdue have to chip every chicken at $68/bird"

Yeeha, you are on a roll now! I haven't read anything so outlandish in a long while? The RFID for cows is $2.00 and no one is requiring tags for chickens and you snatch $68 out of the air. I doubt that even Timothy McVey could stand by you on that outlandish claim.

"By this first step, giving our I.D. numbers when we buy chickens, we are giving government control of our food supply. It's animals now, who knows what later. They already have seeds that can't be saved without penalty of prosecution. If that's what you want, so be it. I am not going along with it."

It does help make your point by calling your mailing address your ID number, but if you'd read the beginning of this thread, the feed mill was getting just addresses. When you buy patented seeds, you know from the get go that you won't be able to save the seeds. You can't expect a great yeild by saving seed from hybrid seeds. That's not new. Been that way for nearly a hundred years. It has been illegal to sell named varieties "one year from certified" without paying the royality. That's been that way for a very long time, too. Most farmers leave hydridization up to the seed companies and don't bother saving seed.

" Besides, by the time another customer reports the disease and the birds (if available) are tested and the disease is diagnosed any other exposed birds would be long dead and burried."

Very true, for the diseases that are 100% fatal. Few are. If what you say were true, most poultry and livestock disease would have died out years ago. They haven't. Then how are livestock diseases spread? Most often it is be direct contact with the animal or feed, water or soil that sick animals have had contact with.