It ain't free, Babe...

DJ in WA · #41 02/25/09, 10:00 PM

Good thread! I've been pondering some of these ideas lately. Yesterday my wife bought several cases of canned vegetables on sale. I had already questioned the gardening since it often goes uneaten, and my kids have mostly left the nest. I like experimenting with different plants and animals, and it's time to focus on what works best and on what we will actually eat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jen74145

I refuse to be chained to a place the way dairy animals keep you.

Funny how we each view things differently. I can't count how many times the "chains" of a milk cow have gotten me out of obligations which I couldn't have tolerated, like 600 mile trips to visit someone I hardly know. There are many ways to view the costs or savings. By the way, it is interesting how some think milk is unnatural for humans. Is it worse than the typical coffee, beer, latte's, and Pepsi guzzled by the average american? My ancestors of northern European origin relied heavily on dairy for centuries, resulting in the high percentage of lactase producers in the population. Regardless, I can't eat a peanut butter sandwich without milk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fin29

I think the most common mistake is to enter into homesteading clinging to the "I want it all and I want it now" mentality that makes the lifestyle so many of us are trying to escape so difficult in the first place.

Like most things, trouble/success with homesteading probably depends on personality more than the practice itself. If you're obsessive about things, you'll become overwhelmed. Yes, there is much you don't need.

My wife's friend in town is a shopping and gambling addict. Maybe being out in the sticks away from the stores saves some money. I find whenever I go to town, I realize there are things I didn't know I needed.

Regarding the concept of the land giving back. My brother bought 200 acres of circle irrigated crop land in Montana. The Califonian parents of his wife expressed great concern for a couple of years about the mistake of buying the place. They kept pressing the issue, wondering how the payments were being made, and it was discovered that they didn't realize there was revenue from the crops of hay, etc. My brother had no idea people could be so out of touch with farming.

Along with time, knowledge is money. On another forum, someone was complaining how expensive it was to raise home-grown eggs. They mentioned their pullets didn't start laying til 9 months of age (mine start just over 4 months). Well, they need light. Might be good along with buying the chickens to spend a few minutes reading about them.

hotzcatz · #42 02/26/09, 12:52 AM

We have a whole range of rural folks around here. Lots of the retired folks who moved in from somewhere else with a huge chunk of cash and are trying to set up a "mini-farm" but no way will that "farm" ever produce much of anything, let alone profit. They seem to go broke pretty quick and then kinda be amazed, I'm not sure why they are surprised. Then there are the folks that have been here for several generations who have not-farms which produce all sorts of stuff. They don't claim it is a farm, sometimes they call it a homestead or just "up mountain" but they make money each and every year with the assortment of stuff they grow and produce.

We don't "homestead" for our entire livelihood, we just garden, gather, hunt and keep chickens and rabbits to add to our income/food supply. We can live very frugally with our homesteading activities and they are pleasant. We don't keep dairy animals, though, because of the effort. We don't have room for big animals either.

This is actually cheaper than a house in town since we can garden much more, there is more to forage, the purchase price was much lower and the taxes are lower.

country_wife · #43 02/26/09, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Picker

I hope that you don't mind my cherry-picking these two comments from your post CW.

If I might add.... Life in general doesn't have to be expensive. And IMHO.... Use it up....Wear it out..... Make it do..... Or do without.... Is a mantra that all could live by. Given the winds of change that are blowin' across this land of ours, it might just become a question of economic necessity.

I agree... If you are purchasing, be it house in town or land, you're making payments and it is preferable to have the option to be able to grow your own food.

The main thing that I would council folks that have little to no agrarian background to think about is....Count the cost. Determine just what you just can't live without.

You know what they say about champagne tastes on a beer budget. It goes for country folks, as well as citiots. A good thing to keep in mine is.... 'If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.... You can bet that the water bill is higher.'

While I prefer the country, I've lived in both urban and rural areas. And I've found the words of the song to be true..... "The secret to survival, is knowin' what to throw away and knowin' what to keep.'

You don't have to live in the country in order to improvise, adapt and overcome. And there's no time like the present to start learning and practicing self-reliance and how to DIY. 'Cause believe me if you have to call the vet every time Bossy coughs, or butchers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, welders and mechanics to do everything, your little enterprise is gonna be hemorrhaging red ink.

Like some have said here and I believe it's worth repeating. Farming/Homesteading is a way of life. 'Crime doesn't pay and neither does farmin'. If you've got it bad to be out there.... Growin' yer own... there's not a thing wrong with that. But if you've got an anthropomorphic streak the won't allow you to eat little Buster the calf that you hand raised from a bottle baby... you're gonna have a tough time adjusting to the harsh realities of life and death on a farm.

Organic veggies are great, but are you gonna have the energy to be out there hunting down and pulling off the tomato worms by hand? Can ya eat an ear of corn that the corn borers been munchin' on? Do ya mind bitin' into an apple and findin' half a worm? Are ya gonna camp out in your veggie patch/orchard to keep the bugs, birds and critters from eatin' it up before you do?

Do ya feel like busting ice in winter so's the cows can drink? Packin' feed over ice covered ground, slippin' and bustin' your butt so hard it make ya see stars? Gettin' stuck in the snow/mud in your own driveway?

Survival, urban or rural, comes down to those immortal words of Jimmy Malone.... "What are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these worms you must be prepared to go all the way...."
Just sayin'

Well said, CP!!!

Most people don't realize that life is work, either way.

You can haul yourself to a job you hate on a daily basis just to pay for stuff you don't have time to enjoy (boats, rv's, atv's, big screen tv's, etc) and to keep your pantry stocked with expensive bottled water and brand name junk food.

Or you can haul yourself outside with a garden fork and a 20 cent packet of seeds and grow your own. Sure, it's manual labor and you will (gasp!) get dirty, but you'll know where that food came from and what it took to get it to the table.

I find our way of life more rewarding than I could say. Give me the option of moving to a mansion with neighbors right outside and a fancy car in the driveway, and I'll pass. I'd prefer to be right here, outside no matter the weather, busting ice and losing my boots in the mud.

Zookeeper · #44 02/26/09, 01:23 PM

So then...how many people here are doing homesteading INSTEAD of working somewhere else? Several have mentioned they are happy that they are farming instead of working in a corporate job, so by that I am assuming you have been fortunate enough to be able to choose one or the other, and give up commuting and working away from home in order to devote your days to homesteading?

I guess I was assuming most people had to do BOTH like we do and I was just thinking that the homesteading just adds work to what used to actually be a simpler lifestyle, you know, come home from work at 5:00 or whatever and you're done for the day...weekends are free...

Not saying I don't LIKE the work or the results of it, just that it is work on top of the work we were ALREADY doing before we moved here, and I don't see that changing for us in the near or even long-term future...

Maybe it's no wonder we are feeling overworked...?

jbowyer01 · #45 02/26/09, 03:28 PM

This thread is wonderful! I've never farmed or been a homesteader. I use to live in the city (outside Philly to be exact), I've done the keep up with the Jones and the fast paced lifestyle, well for lack of a better word it sucked! We've downsized our home, sold off our expensive cars and moved to a rural area with just a little piece of property. I do work a fulltime job on top of raising chickens, gardening, canning and freezing what I can. AND I LOVE IT! But I am in no way unrealisitc about what many of you do on a larger scale. I know it takes money (a bunch of it from what I've been pricing). I know it is back breaking work and it is pretty much all consuming (no more jumping in the car and going away for a weekend). But I want to try it but I also want to be smart about it. We are purchasing a couple (9) acres. That will be purchased with cash, no financing! I can then start having other things completed (septic, well, fencing) as I can pay for cash. Believe me I would love to jump right in but this website is wonderful for giving dreams as well as the letting you know the realities. It seems for every negative thing that I've read, it makes me want to do it more. I would rather be broke in following my dream than rich and in a cage (which living in the city made me feel like). So I want to thank all of you for your honesty in this thread, you'll never realize how much it is appreciated and how helpful it actually is.

Michael W. Smith · #46 02/26/09, 04:01 PM

Oh yes, the mental picture of sitting on your front porch on a rocker or a swing while sipping lemonade on a summer day sure is a nice picture.

But it doesn't show the day before, where you mowed the lawn for 2 hours to get that "nice yard" look, and it doesn't show the garden in the back that is full of weeds because you've been sitting on the porch for the last 3 weeks.

Nope, nothing is free. But you choose where you live.

Would you rather live in the city in an apartment, where your only chore is cleaning it (unless you hire a maid?). You have all kinds of entertainment around you, places to eat, etc - but that all takes money - so you work your 9:00 - 5:00 job and have rush hour traffic, and deadlines to meet. You also depend on the county to supply your water, and food to be in the grocery stores or restaurants.

Would you rather live in the suburbs, where you have a yard to mow, flower garden to attend to, entertainment places to go and places to eat. But you also have to have your job to pay for your house, car, and the new pool (because the neighbors got one, so you HAD to get one). You might have a small garden, but still have to reply on the county for water and rely on the grocery stores to have food.

Or would you rather live out in the country - where you have a yard to mow, garden to tend to, animals to feed, water, and clean. You rely on your spring or well to provide water for you, and while your chickens, goats, and cows, can supply some food, you can't grow all of your food, so you do have to some kind of job to pay for that plus to pay the taxes, etc.

I guess it comes down to, do you want the rushed glitzy life of a city or suburb dweller, or do you want the laidback but busy life of a county person? Of course, country life can be stressful - when the stray dog massacres your chickens, or your goat can't have the baby and dies.

If life continues as is, the city and suburban dwellers will continue having their food and water supplied to them. But if life hits the fan, the city and suburb people will be scrambling for food and water (or die), but you out in the country should be able to sustain yourselves.

Life is hard either way - working in the city, or working in the country. Two totally different places, two totally different jobs, but it still takes work.

Cotton Picker · #47 02/26/09, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael W. Smith

Or would you rather live out in the country - where you have a yard to mow,

Well now Michael... IMHO, ya wouldn't have a yard ta mow if ya fenced it and ran some Woolly Boogers on it.

Another plus for the country life.

PhilJohnson · #48 02/26/09, 08:53 PM

There are a few things I would like to say, first off about the too much land crowd. As long as the property taxes are reasonable there is no such thing as too much land in my opinion. I see plenty of people treat their acreages like giant city lots or turning them into parks. Waste of time, that land can take care of itself. It isn't gonna get moldy or something. Mowing acres of grass is pointless. I like a little lawn, or no lawn at all. I mow my grass three times a year. If someone really has their heart set on a mowed down look, get some critters. They'll mow it down for you and plus a goat has a pretty small carbon footprint

Also there is such a thing as too much variety. Variety=work and tons of overhead. If an animal is costing you too much hassle, don't have it. Don't grow cheapo things like taters and wheat. They are dirt cheap and the government does a great job at making sure that big agribiz is well subsidized for growing that stuff. Another thing cheap land usually equals low paying jobs. So it is best not to have high expectations when it comes to getting employment. Be patient and realistic, most of those pretty family farms you see took generations of working the land to get that way.

Also realize that unless you can grow some sort of nitch crop, small scale farming will never pay your bills enough to quit your day job. The reason why all the successful farms these days are massive is because food is way too cheap in this country. The only reason why people could make it back in the day is the average cost of food was a lot higher.

If you don't like to work on stuff your not going to last being a homesteader. Also time is money. Sometimes it is worth hiring the guy with the big backhoe to do a job in 10 minutes that would take you three days with the shovel.

And also what is up with all this having to buy fancy stuff to do anything. Tractors can be had for next to nothing. I had an old Massey 35 that I used for a few years. I changed the oil one time and paid a whopping 600 bucks for it. It blew up when I was towing my mobile home this last fall. I figured three year's use was pretty good for 600 bucks considering how much I did to it. My friend used a 4x4 pickup to plow his garden plot with an old one bottom trip plow. Sure it looked dorky, but it did the job and the plow was a hundred bucks instead of buying a 1500 dollar rotor-tiller. He used an old disc that was drug out of the weeds to break up the soil. Nice older ATVs are usually under a grand, most of mine have been 150 dollar three wheelers. The list goes on.

My place may look a little hill billy but I would make a venture to guess my life is a lot less stress and simpler than other "homesteaders".

Anderson farms · #49 02/27/09, 08:10 AM

We used to live in town but now have a nice homestead and wouldn't have it any other way. We know we won't get rich off of it and my husband still has to work a full time job, but its a lot nicer to come home to peace and quiet than having a neighbor so close you can hand each other toilet paper through the bathroom windows! My dogs aren't terrorized by the neighbor kids anymore. They used to climb our privacy fence to get our dogs to bark at them. We worked nights so when we got home our brittany, which is the sweetest thing, would be shaking and upset. Then we came home and the cop neighbor we had next door had pepper sprayed our brittany because she was barking at his kids, which climb our fence to mess with her! Of course we only found this out because I always lay down with her when we get home and pet and cuddle with her. Well, I got the pepper spray all over me! In my eyes and oh does it hurt! I can go on and on about crappy suburban living, I'll take poor homesteading living anyday! Not to mention the wonderful taste of homegrown food! I hated pork from the store. You might as well be eating cardboard with chunks of fat on it.....YUK! We raised a few hogs and I was skeptical because I had only had store bought pork. Oh it was the most wonderful pork chop I had ever had!!! Yep I'll stay a dirty poor farmer

Qvrfullmidwife · #50 02/27/09, 09:19 AM

"I had read how one can scavenge all kinds of builing materials."

Like a fairly recent article in, I think, Mother Earth News that proudly trumpeted on the cover "build a house for under $10,000 in less than 10 days!"

A paragraph in it details "on an already existing slab foundation...." LOL I think in advertising that is called bait and switch?

Qvrfullmidwife · #51 02/27/09, 09:24 AM

"So then...how many people here are doing homesteading INSTEAD of working somewhere else?"

We are but we had some incredible breaks along the way. Well, maybe some wouldnt call it homesteading but starting a business...we have a Grade A goat dairy. My dh drives a schoolbus but not for pay, but for insurance. Once the insurance is taken out he gets less than $100 monthly. But it took 4 years of driving 120plus miles daily to the city job, and months of never seeing the homeplace in daylight between Sunday night and Saturday morning.

MariaAZ · #52 02/27/09, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael W. Smith

If life continues as is, the city and suburban dwellers will continue having their food and water supplied to them. But if life hits the fan, the city and suburb people will be scrambling for food and water (or die), but you out in the country should be able to sustain yourselves.

From a suburban dweller point of view, I see this idea as only one half of the equation. The farmer can sustain the family food-wise, but what about things like fuel, parts to repair equipment, clothing (or cloth for clothing), etc? A majority of these goods come from non-rural areas. I think very few farmers/homesteaders are completely, 100% self-sufficient with the ability to meet 100% of all their needs. Besides, tax collectors generally don't accept anything but cash, so I would think even in tough times rural folks are going to need money from SOMEWHERE... or SOMEONE. I'm thinking the easiest money will be selling excess food to... city folks. Making city folks a vital part of the survival equation.

It is frequently brought up on these forums that we city folk are short-sighted and don't see how dependent we are on rural folk for our food. I think there is a danger in not realizing that this type of dependence works in both directions. Rural folks depend on non-rural folk to provide goods and services THEY can't produce, just like city folk depend on rural folk for foodstuffs.

I believe that in order to survive, it takes all kinds of people providing different services and goods. Granted, in the world of a homesteading forum where food production is emphasized, city folks are sometimes seen as useless but sometimes amusing; however, we city folk DO contribute to successful homesteading. Some of us work jobs that directly affect farmers/homesteaders (people building tractors for instance), others indirectly (I may be the person you talk to when you call your bank with a question about your savings account). Our jobs pay us the money we give you in exchange for food. We are ALL interconnected and in my opinion pretty equally yoked to one another, regardless how vehemently we might deny it