It ain't free, Babe...

ET1 SS · #21 02/24/09, 07:16 PM

Everything has a cost.

Flat forest land here goes for $300/acre.

Taxes are $1.05 / year.

So 100 acres will cost you $30k, and $105/year.

Such is life.

chewie · #22 02/24/09, 07:21 PM

when my kids whine about diong some chores, i tell them that sure, it'd be easier and WAY cheaper to live in town. and i know that myself, but i also know that the whole time i was living cheaper in town, i'd be saving up to get OUT!

i lived in an apt once. that's all i needed. i've lived near other ppl's places, dont' like that either. i like my space. i know it'd be cheaper to have my space but not fill it with goats, horses, dogs, etc., but that seems a waste of a good acreage to me. i think it just boils down to lifestyle. and yes, its sad that some think they're gonna move on out th'county, raise them some nice food, and live for free. peaceful, quiet, healthy, beautiful, restful, i could go on and on about what it IS, but what it AIN'T is cheap!

pickapeppa · #23 02/24/09, 07:43 PM

Choosing a lifestyle that's outside the norm can be done for intrinsic value or extrinsic value. When the extrinsic value fails to materialize, it's the intrinsic rewards that keep a person engaged even in the face of failure.

Sometimes it seems people either 'get it out of their system' or decide it's not for them.

But for some it's just who they are and know no other way of being.

Freeholder · #24 02/24/09, 08:34 PM

Sorry -- dupe.

Freeholder · #25 02/24/09, 08:41 PM

[QUOTE=pickapeppa;3645858]

But for some it's just who they are and know no other way of being.[/QUOTE]

That's me. That's what I was going to write. Other than two years at college, I've only spent a few years living in towns, and even there we had a garden, fruit trees, meat rabbits, and even raised a few ducks in our backyard for meat (I don't think we could have gotten away with chickens at the time!). I grew up on a 160-acre homestead in Alaska, adjoining my grandparents 160-acre homestead, and we had a whole lake in our front yard (I'll try to post a picture --- if it shows up, it's me, age seven, and my younger brothers, in the boat that Grandad built for Mom's 13th birthday). We always had a garden; Dad and Grandpa had a dairy and raised hay and potatoes (hay for their cows, potatoes to sell); for a while we had a milk cow at home; and my brothers and I spent most of our time playing on the lake or in the woods and fields). Nearly all of our meat came from hunting and fishing, and if we needed something, usually someone made it -- Mom made all our clothes, Dad built our house.

I fully realize that meat, milk and eggs that I raise myself will likely cost more than store-bought, but I'm going to do it anyway. That's just what we do. And I'm making a concerted effort to raise more feed for my animals so they DON'T cost so much to keep. IMO, with the economy the way it is, right now would be a bad time to be dependent on grocery stores -- or feed stores -- for all of your food.

Kathleen

It ain't free, Babe... - Homesteading Questions

It ain't free, Babe... - Homesteading Questions

pickapeppa · #26 02/24/09, 08:50 PM

That's a breathtaking landscape. It sounds like heaven.

It's who I am too. I can't think of anything else I'd rather be doing. The real key is to become debt free and stop voting for referendums that raise property taxes.

This is where living different from the herd gets you in trouble. If those around you can afford more taxes, up they go.

poorboy · #27 02/24/09, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helianthus

Let's get right to the point: homegrown is better, but it sure ain't free. I've seen a lot of people go into homesteading with unbounded enthusiasm and unrealistic plans, only to bail, while some others end up downsizing. I'm not tryign to be a spoilsport, but I do think that a realistic look at the expenses of homesteading is called for.

Land: Unless you got your land for free and pay no taxes on it, this is a huge expense, probably the greatest. You wouldn't have acreage if you didn't want to live the country life, so this should be counted as an expense unless you live in town or in an apartment building.

Fencing, barns, coops, gates, etc: These are other significant expenses. Even if you scavenge, it is rare to be able to scavenge all the material needed, and the time invested in patching together free materials is often much greater than if you built with new material. If it is a temporary structure, you have to build another one someday, so even more cost is incurred.

Time: I understand that homesteading can be therapeutic, but let's be honest; it can also be extremely stressful and downright heartbreaking. Your time does have a dollar value, as you sell it when you're working a 9-5 job, or are self employed, or are selling a product that you made or grew. Don't think so? Will you sell a machine made quilt that took a day to make for the same price as a hand-pieced, hand-quilted one that took two years? I didn't think so, and that's because one took more time. A lot of couples who homestead break up due to the stress and lack of time...I've been one. Time is a very important consideration.

Casualties of nature: rampaging dogs in the hen house, rampaging goats in the garden, insects, disease, floods, frost, drought, natural disasters....these incur a heavy toll.

Equipment: wheelbarrows, milking pails, syringes, medications, hoof trimmers, gloves, rubber boots, shovels...these are all expenses, because you wouldn't pay them if you weren't homesteading.

Water, electricity, and gas: depending on where you live and what kind of farming you're doing, these can really add up. Huge freezers to store all that homegrown meat cost a lot to run. Irrigation....these are added expenses.

Animals: this cost is actually one of the lowest, so you might as well buy the best that you need. Getting them at a sale barn or as freebies is a waste of your time and money. Buy good, productive ones.

Fruit trees, seeds, etc: sometimes are free, but even when I grew most of my own seed, I still liked to try new varieties, and to get fruit, nut, and berry trees that we didn't have.

Feed: This is probably the greatest expense after land. I don't want to hear that it's free to feed them, because it isn't so. Even if they graze all spring, summer, and fall, they still need to eat during the winter, and the pregnant and milking ones need grain. Chickens can be mostly range fed, but chances are, they'll also need grain or boughten food at least some of the time. Even if they did graze 365 days a year, that requires land and fencing, an expense. Get animals that produce well for the investment in feed.

In conclusion, plan carefully, be aware of the costs, and don't undervalue what you produce. It has cost you dearly, so charge according, and invest in new species with the clear view of investment in mind.

Iffin ya put that money in farmland these last 20 years and kept on working in town ya now probably own something of value, my little dibble of land will rent out for enough to pay the property taxes on everything and leave me enough to buy enough wood to heat my house all winter and buy me a couple pair of new overalls every year. Also farmland hasn't dropped back like housing has in value..:-)

sgl42 · #28 02/24/09, 10:20 PM

I agree that many overestimate the costs and time commitments involved. Many seem to try to do it all too. Eg, trying to have pigs and chickens and goats, instead of picking one animal to tend.

I suspect that various activities have different paybacks too. My guess is that gardening has the biggest bang for the buck. And chickens are probably a lot easier and lower investment that cows.

Like anything, there's economies of scale. For a car, the first mile is really expensive (capital cost, insurance, ...) but the second mile gets much cheaper. Same with homesteading -- the learning curve and equipment needed for the first chicken might be high, but once you've got one chicken, it's easier to add a couple more.

There is the option value of knowing how to do it tho. Eg, if you know how to cook, you have a choice to cook at home or eat out, whereas if you don't know how to cook, you don't have those same options. If you know how to raise chickens, you can decide to slaughter your flock in the fall because you don't like tending them in the winter. Or decide to buy chicken elsewhere while going to school or starting a new job. But if circumstances change, you'll still be ahead of the people who don't know anything about raising their own food.

--sgl

chamoisee · #29 02/24/09, 10:32 PM

Right. I completely agree with you. I'm *not* pooh-poohing homesteading. What I am saying is that it does cost money, and if you sell your products, you should sell them for their true value.

I'm glad you mentioned that about the first chicken, because it reminds me of another point: for some reason, it is cheaper and far less stressful to have 50 of one species of animal than to have a pair each of ten species. This seems counter-intuitive, but my experience has always been that if I get a whim to bring in a few different species (or sometimes even just a different breed!), the chore time and complexity and stressload just go out the roof.

I once met a lady who had purchased a registered dairy goat of each breed so she could compare the cheesemaking qualities of the six dairy breeds! I mean, can you imagine?? If she tracked down breeders of six breeds, she surely could have purchased a gallon of milk from each of them instead.... When I met her, she was selling off all but one breed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgl42

I agree that many overestimate the costs and time commitments involved. Many seem to try to do it all too. Eg, trying to have pigs and chickens and goats, instead of picking one animal to tend.

I suspect that various activities have different paybacks too. My guess is that gardening has the biggest bang for the buck. And chickens are probably a lot easier and lower investment that cows.

Like anything, there's economies of scale. For a car, the first mile is really expensive (capital cost, insurance, ...) but the second mile gets much cheaper. Same with homesteading -- the learning curve and equipment needed for the first chicken might be high, but once you've got one chicken, it's easier to add a couple more.

There is the option value of knowing how to do it tho. Eg, if you know how to cook, you have a choice to cook at home or eat out, whereas if you don't know how to cook, you don't have those same options. If you know how to raise chickens, you can decide to slaughter your flock in the fall because you don't like tending them in the winter. Or decide to buy chicken elsewhere while going to school or starting a new job. But if circumstances change, you'll still be ahead of the people who don't know anything about raising their own food.

--sgl

chamoisee · #30 02/24/09, 10:46 PM

I'm a college student, too. I don't have livestock anymore at this time, but I did plant a nice garden last year. So, here's my 2 cents of advice:

Get rid of any animal that causes you more stress than pleasure.

If you have dairy animals and your DH is overworked, consider letting them nurse their babies this year or let them go dry for a year or two.

If you feel that a group of animals (or a single animal) is somewhat expendable, let it go. IOW, if it won't absolutely break your heart to sell it, then do, and get more once you graduate.

Garden: Only plant things that are unavailable at the store (real tomatoes), would cost a fortune (fresh basil) or that are very important to you. Don't waste time you could be studying double digging raised beds for potatoes and wheat and flour corn..... If you will not have time to can, then maybe you can freeze? If not, don't plant extra, or not as much, or plant things that don't have to be frozen or canned, like root crops or winter squash, or things that are only eaten fresh.

Lastly, if your husband is stressed or if he hates a certain animal or type of animal and he's got to do a lot of the work, you should get rid of those. This is really hard, but burn-out can be really hard on family life, and when homesteaders divorce, most of the animals get sold anyway. Better to sell whatever he absolutely can't stand (if there are any of these) than to let it get to that point.

And, make time for quality time with kids and spouse away from the farm once in a while. Doesn't have to be expensive. Hike, picnic, go fishing...quality time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zookeeper

This is probably the thing that discourages me most about trying to homestead. It is costing us SO much more than it would just to live somewhere else...I even comment on occasion that I could buy all organic food for far less than the $ we have in all of this so far

In our situation, we came here broke, jobless and homeless and have really scratched our way up...started with undeveloped land and had to do it all ourselves...not even any family help. So for all the $ we have put into all those things you mentioned, I am always aware that it is not saving us $ but rather costing us a bucket load of $ to do this, so it's kind of like a hobby.

And then there's the time factor...it gets me down. I know it gets DH down to work his 60 hour+ weeks and then have to work all weekend.

I have been thinking about all this a lot lately, especially in light of the fact that I am supposed to start college this fall and all that stuff I take care of during the week...well...I don't see it being kept up for the 2 years I'm going to be in school. I JUST don't see it.

So...what's the good news? :baby04:

I know it's a great way to live and it's much better for the kids but sometimes I do question the price we're paying. And I dang sure don't want to be one of those people who lost their marriage over it.

Any sage advice from someone who's BTDT on how to keep your sanity through all of it but to keep on plugging away?

Oh...and all those people down the road who think my "extra" eggs and milk ought to be "free" to THEM...bite me!!

Spinner · #31 02/24/09, 10:55 PM

But it's a great tax deduction! LOL

Seriously, I was born to the life and those expenses are part of it. You have to love it to do it. If not, then it becomes a job that you eventually start to despise.

I buy a few things every payday so the total expense is spread out over many years.

We bought an established farm with several outbuildings. One year (back when DH had a good job) we used his Christmas bonus to build a huge new barn. We traded an old truck to a friend for labor to help with the building. The friend is a contractor with all kinds of equipment so it was a lucky deal for us to get to make that trade.

I figure if we lived in town we'd spend the money on buying food instead of growing it. We'd spend a lot more on entertainment instead of having a bar b que out back. We'd spend more on "town" clothes instead of wearing the same old things until they are totally worn out. Out here on the homestead we don't have to dress like we would if we were both in the office daily.

It's a trade off, depending on what lifestyle you want to live. We give up a lot of things people in town have, but those things aren't important to us. We have much more of what we want out here.

Some people seem to work at it, and for others it's kind of a natural process that is laid back and easy going. I fit into the second category. For me growing a garden is second nature, no worries about it, just stick the seeds in the ground, give em some water when they need it, and jerk out the weeds when they get in the way.

Same with the animals. I don't try to watch each doe for time to breed her. I put the does in the same pen with the bucks and I figure nature will take it's course. And it has for a couple of years, the herd has increased tremendously! It's time to sell the buck and buy an unrelated one so the process can continue without inbreeding.

It's a enjoyable, laid back kind of life that I love. Even when the well pump burns out and I have to spend days or even weeks trying to fix it, I still wouldn't want to live any other way (as I set here looking at 100's of bottles of water that now line the basement walls!

)

ErinP · #32 02/25/09, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poorboy

Also farmland hasn't dropped back like housing has in value..:-)

But it can.
And anyone who lived through the 80s in farm country already knows this...

wwubben · #33 02/25/09, 08:01 AM

An acreage with a couple acres here doesn't cost any more than a house on a lot in town.You can have a huge garden and some poultry and not break the bank.People make the mistake of getting a horse or some goats and think they have to buy every trinket for them that comes on the market.Homesteading does not have to cost as much as living in town.It is a choice you make.

Macybaby · #34 02/25/09, 08:55 AM

This is something that DH and my relatives have a hard time understanding. They think we must live this way because we are "broke" and then when they see what we spend our money on, they say "you should be able to afford to live in the city after all".

It's not about money, and they don't really get that. I have a career, and could make way more money living in a metro area. Dh travels for work, so it does not really matter that much where we live for him. We could live so much cheaper than we do, but we'd hate our life. I suppose we'd then have money to take month long vacations just to get away from our 'life" so we didn't go crazy. Instead we sink our money into our homestead lifestyle and hardly ever go on vacations - because we'd rather spend time at home.

I do this because I love doing it. I know if I wanted the quailty of foods we eat, it would be a lot more expensive than what it cost to bake/raise them ourselves, but there are much cheaper purchased food available if quality did not matter.

It would be cheaper for me to buy 1 -2 dozen eggs a week, but they would not taste as good and I enjoy my chickens. I use to raise indoor birds as a hobby for enjoyment, now I raise chickens for enjoyment and eggs (a net gain). I've always loved gardening, and use to spend over $1,000 a year on huge flower gardens. Now I spend less on a big veggie garden and get produce as a bonus.

It's funny how when I lived in suburbia, the exotic pets and huge flower garden were seen as a mark of status and success. Living in the country and raising stock and food is seen as a sign of inablity to succeed in the "real" world.

Every once in a while DH and talk about all the money we would have if we gave up on the homesteading thing, sold the land and all the stuff we have because we have lnad, and bought a smaller place that didn't need equipment and time to maintain.

We always get to the point, we would have lots more time and money - and then what we would do with it? We are to the point that we can live quite frugally, but that is because we've invested so much into our lifestyle over the last 30 years, in tools and education. But it sure is a lot of hard work! And we love it.

Cathy

jen74145 · #35 02/25/09, 09:08 AM

We only have a small bit of land, not even a full acre. But, we toy with the idea of what we'd do if we had more, and really... not much.
Chickens, rabbits, and a garden work well for my family. I don't think human bodies are intended to eat dairy the way some folks do, so that's out, though I do adore goats and may someday have an angora or two to spin from.

DH hunts, so wild hog and venison are easily accessible... we are surrounded by lakes too, so fish and duck are plentiful.

I refuse to be chained to a place the way dairy animals keep you. Chickens and rabbits, you can confine them for a weekend and fill their feeders and waterers and go visit family or whatever. Not so much with larger stock. As our son grows, I want to be able to take him to near-ish major cities for the activities, opportunites and such and not HAVE to be home at a certain time.

It may not work for others, but us... yeah.

firegirl969 · #36 02/25/09, 10:19 AM

I can appreciate your post and the points that you make. I fully agree that #1 you must sell your items for their true value, and #2 living, in general, ain't free. Everything comes with a price. Furthermore, I can fully agree that one that tries to be too big too fast would get in both financial and emotional/psychological trouble. However, on the points of taxes, we all are going to pay property taxes or rent. Whether you live in town or in the country, property taxes are a part of owning land and a house as are insurance. Groceries have gone out of site with prices, so I can grow my veggies for about what I pay at the grocery store, I eat healthier because I know what goes in and on them, and I am secure that to some degree I can feed my family if TSHTF. Peace of mind means alot. I don't consider my labor, because I don't allow my animals or gardening to stress me out, I actually use that time as "therapy" to unwind; I use tools that make it easier for me, and I am unable to work more than two days a week due to health issues, so I have "free time" anyway that is better spent gardening instead of reading Harlequins or watching TV all day. I must not stand or sit more than 20 minutes at a time, doctor's orders, so I go out and do a little, sit a little, get up and do a little more, sit a little, etc. It keeps me moving and loosens up my joints. As far as costs of tools, fruit trees, etc. I fully agree with you that you must have income outside the homestead for such items when you want them; however that income is attained is up to you, but I guess my final point would be, that nothing in life is free, and everyone needs to accept that, decide on the path that they want to take, and design a plan to obtain their goals. If something is not working or is too expensive to maintain or too stressful, quit with that, chalk it up as a lesson learned, and put your efforts into something else. As for the poster going back to school, I did that, I just allowed my animals to dry up and babies to feed off mom, I bought our bread instead of baking it, I bought groceries instead of gardening and canning, and we ate out more than we should have. However, I got my education, my family was happy and content, and we made it work.

fin29 · #37 02/25/09, 12:46 PM

I think the most common mistake is to enter into homesteading clinging to the "I want it all and I want it now" mentality that makes the lifestyle so many of us are trying to escape so difficult in the first place.

Wags · #38 02/25/09, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fin29

I think the most common mistake is to enter into homesteading clinging to the "I want it all and I want it now" mentality that makes the lifestyle so many of us are trying to escape so difficult in the first place.

You are so right! Hard to have the patience to build up over time. I planned and saved for years and then waited after we got the property for a couple of years before I started adding critters. And even then I went with young animals (cheaper) that gave me a chance to learn (or relearn) about them before I started breeding.

As for taxes - my folks live 3 miles away from us in a town of about 15k. Their property taxes are a little over $3,000 more a year than ours!

country_wife · #39 02/25/09, 08:47 PM

Homesteading doesn't have to be expensive. We don't have a tractor, tiller, riding lawnmower, or any other expensive equipment. We grow our own rabbit food. This year, we'll be growing our own chicken food for next winter. (They free range in the summer.)

The big expense for us right now is house payment, and in two years, the house will be done, will be sold, and we'll use that money to pay for land someplace south. A part time job at the most will cover taxes and incidentals. We will be living a rustic life, so no power, phone, or water bills.

It's all a matter of what you are willing to sacrifice. And frankly, we are tired of sacrificing our time and energy just to own stuff.

Cotton Picker · #40 02/25/09, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by country_wife

Homesteading doesn't have to be expensive....... It's all a matter of what you are willing to sacrifice.

I hope that you don't mind my cherry-picking these two comments from your post CW.

If I might add.... Life in general doesn't have to be expensive. And IMHO.... Use it up....Wear it out..... Make it do..... Or do without.... Is a mantra that all could live by. Given the winds of change that are blowin' across this land of ours, it might just become a question of economic necessity.

I agree... If you are purchasing, be it house in town or land, you're making payments and it is preferable to have the option to be able to grow your own food.

The main thing that I would council folks that have little to no agrarian background to think about is....Count the cost. Determine just what you just can't live without.

You know what they say about champagne tastes on a beer budget. It goes for country folks, as well as citiots. A good thing to keep in mine is.... 'If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.... You can bet that the water bill is higher.'

While I prefer the country, I've lived in both urban and rural areas. And I've found the words of the song to be true..... "The secret to survival, is knowin' what to throw away and knowin' what to keep.'

You don't have to live in the country in order to improvise, adapt and overcome. And there's no time like the present to start learning and practicing self-reliance and how to DIY. 'Cause believe me if you have to call the vet every time Bossy coughs, or butchers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, welders and mechanics to do everything, your little enterprise is gonna be hemorrhaging red ink.

Like some have said here and I believe it's worth repeating. Farming/Homesteading is a way of life. 'Crime doesn't pay and neither does farmin'. If you've got it bad to be out there.... Growin' yer own... there's not a thing wrong with that. But if you've got an anthropomorphic streak the won't allow you to eat little Buster the calf that you hand raised from a bottle baby... you're gonna have a tough time adjusting to the harsh realities of life and death on a farm.

Organic veggies are great, but are you gonna have the energy to be out there hunting down and pulling off the tomato worms by hand? Can ya eat an ear of corn that the corn borers been munchin' on? Do ya mind bitin' into an apple and findin' half a worm? Are ya gonna camp out in your veggie patch/orchard to keep the bugs, birds and critters from eatin' it up before you do?

Do ya feel like busting ice in winter so's the cows can drink? Packin' feed over ice covered ground, slippin' and bustin' your butt so hard it make ya see stars? Gettin' stuck in the snow/mud in your own driveway?

Survival, urban or rural, comes down to those immortal words of Jimmy Malone.... "What are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these worms you must be prepared to go all the way...."
Just sayin'