Is the economy screwed?

I think a lot of you are ignoring the drastic change in the distriubtion of the kinds of people now as compared to during the Great Depression. Yes, in general, people in the country will be better off than those in densly populated areas. That said, during the Great Depression a far greater proportion of the populace made their livings off of small farms. That's not the case any more - the ratio of those working on small farms compared to those not has just about flip flopped. Further, if things get as bad as we often discuss they might on these boards, what makes everyone in the country think they'll be immune to "the golden horde" (as Rawles refers to them on his survivalblog site - excellent site btw) descending upon your farms? Sorry, no matter how tough anybody talks on here you can't get productive work done and watch your back all the time. I don't care how much firepower you have, you can't maintain a guard 24/7, even with a small group of folks with you. In the country there's more distance between houses making isolated small farms easy targets. Anybody in Vermont is a half a day's car ride away from major population centers. Sure, most of those city folks are not prepared, but I'll bet there are enough of them with enough gas in their luxury SUV's and enough packing to cause you trouble. That's why I said that everybody, no matter where you are, will be in some trouble - city (worse) or country (better, but with a different set of problems).

The only solution I can think of is to continue to learn as much as possible, get together with like-minded folks, get to know your neighbors in an effort to build community, and (if you're Christian - no offense to nonbelievers) trust in the Lord.

I do believe it depended on where the farm was as to how many people actually "made it" on the farm. I know that there were two factors during the depression - the monetary/economic factor and the dust bowl factor. My family lived in Georgia so did not have to contend with the dust bowl, we had to deal with the depression and all the things associated with that.

I know that many lost their farms when they couldn't pay the taxes, my Grandpa always set enough money by to pay the taxes first, then any other money was saved (at home) for emergency use. Wasn't too much cash available when you consider that there weren't many jobs and folks would work for food so wages were very low.

How you define depression I reckon depends on how it affects you and your family. For some during the 30's, there were folks that never really felt the depression personally. Some were wealthy to begin with, others were self sufficient and so life went on for them pretty much the same.

I believe that times will get worse this year, I work for a world wide corporation which is slashing jobs and closing facilities. My staff has been laid off, my work site is moving, and I expect to be laid off any day after the move is finished. I do have my part time job which I will continue to do and will try to find another full time job..but that is looking pretty slim now. If nothing else, I can devote more time to gardening and working around the farm while I look. The part time job pays less than half of what the full time job pays, so things will get really tight around here, but I won't starve and will pre-pay my property taxes next month for this year. That will be one less worry.

I think people should really devote a bit of time to learning a new skill set or evaluating what skills you have and see if any can be applied to a whole new job as being too dependent on a single job/skill may not be beneficial.

__________________
Be yourself - no one can tell you that you're doing it wrong!

Good post.

If you were in an area where there was no drought - dustbowl; then that part of it did not effect you.

If you had not fell in to the pressure to buy a tractor and petro-fertilizers; then the economics of paying off that debt would not effect you.

My ancestors were hit hard by tractor salesmen and farm advisors. So they had gotten into dumping early petrochem fertilizers on their land hoping for every bigger crops.

Borrowing money to pay for a tractor and each year's fertilizer required a mortgage.

The drought hit hard and farming stopped, most banks were willing to stick it out for the farmers.

But when the dirt blew away and left, prospects looked worse.

Then the banks failed.

So lawyers came into it. Lawyers took the deeds, and the sheriffs removed the farmers from their lands.



Now if you were 'lucky' enough to be super poor before all of this, and in an area that did not see the drought; then things would have been different.

No flat crop land, means that their crops were always poor. No bank would gamble on them to start with.

No tractor, no debt, no poisons in the soil. Then all you had to worry about was taxes each year.



In comparison, they did survive the depression easier.

You hit the nail on the head. I've read statistics that >50% used to farm. Now it is less than 2% from what I've read and that's an over all thing so there are large areas, notably the more urban, where the rate who farm or even raise food for themselves is probably far, far lower. People can relearn those skills. That's part of what this discussion board is about, sharing those skills. There are also plenty of books.

One thing that is very different today is we have the Internet - for as long as it is up and it is a very robust system. This lets people share information, do research, etc. Not a full replacement for learning at the old folks' knee but something.

__________________
SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

highlands - I think you're right about relearning skills - people will have to. I think that we'll have to return to a more localized economy and people will devote a lot more time and attention to feeding themselves. Eating seasonally, bartering for goods and services, and using every square foot of soil to grow food. I agree about the internet. That's part of what makes this site so great. I can't tell you how many times I've posted a question and had a bunch of good answers or suggestions within hours! It's great.

Well, a few people made it through the Depression in the cities; my mother's family was one of them. There were 13 in their household inside the realm of Philadelphia. My step-great grandfather had a Civil War pension of $31 per month, and my greatgrandmother had left an Amish community with her growing skills intact. They lived in cheap clapboard houses by the railroad tracks where Granny raised a huge garden in their yard, and chickens. Enough for 13 people. In the mid 1960's I saw one of these houses. The yard was prob. 150ft deep and 50 ft wide, a long and narrow lot. Granny canned everything. My mother said they never went hungry once, that it was a happy household with pinochle games in the evenings and Scrabble. All kids worked and helped. A couple of the adults didn't do much! They re-made larger clothing to fit the kids etc, not very many pairs of shoes; the kids went barefoot when school was out. My mother hates chickens til this day, even tho' her granny did the butchering! ldc

As I said this needs another thread.

Highlander, you've hit on the real fact today about country or farms. Today the "country is mostly mono culture farms. These are the same country people that are always going broke to the city people mostly for not having control of their businesses. They are deep in debt and have allowed the city people to control their markets and their prices. You are a great exception to the rule and obviously not the norm.
Now we come to the great educator, the internet. Not as popular or available to many of the country people. Sure there's the exceptions and we see a lot of it on a board like this. The common knowledge of people from the great depression era has been lost to many city and country alike.

__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self confidence"
Robert Frost

This is why I feel we are in moer trouble than anyone imagines. When My folks were tight they did what was necessary to get by. If that was Moonshine so be it. That was also making there own shoe laces. buckets, chairs, baskets, Lumber, and anything else they could. My momma swapped eggs for a piece of hard Indian Chocolate to give the gravy taste when there wasn't enough lard for good gravy. When I went to school in the 60s folks were still sending there kids to school with there dinner in a wrapped news paper. Tin Foil was folded and put in the back pocket for reuse.
Any one here that doesn't have a job does have one possible problem. Belief in your self that you can do something other than be a hired slave for the Man. (Yes since I hire people to work on the Mill I guess that makes me the man.)
I saw logs I started with a small mill and built a dream with a lot of the time my public work had to support the dream. But 15 years of too many mistakes I am 55 and had a chance to take buy out and have. If I depended on the Man taking care of me I would be there 15 more years.
It is scary to do it on your own but it can be done. But it takes more than reading and talking it takes doing many things and when the successful one works grab and go.

Sidepasser, I think your granny is a great role model. If things get as bad as it was then, may we be as hard working, resourceful, and generous. Looks like our nation is in for troublous times.....

Sidepasser,

Great post. My grandfather and granny lived in GA during the "Hoover Days", so as I posted earlier in this thread, they were not really affected by the depression either.

firefirl969

I had a look around your blog and if you want to talk about made up facts we can.... My land area statistic came from the state website and I made a mistake in reading the chart which when corrected by you I owned up to.

But the post above was a personal attack on my integrity and I now resent you for that. I did not cite anybody in the "Urban areas of Vermont" I cited family I have in the NEK..... If you were infact "not a flatlander" you would know that NEK is the Northeast Kingdom...as in St Johnsbury, Lyndonville, Barton, Orleans, Newport, Island Pond...... The area I am from and just so happens to be the most rural area in the state.

You have far too much online presents to be accusing others of making up facts.....if you want to continue this nonsence I will happily point out contradictory statements and halftruths made by you so that other members can be the judge of who is credible.

__________________
Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.

In any kind of emergency... in any kind of financial troubles (depression, recession, deflation, inflation, you name it) I'll take my chances out here in the countryside... where I have a guaranteed source of food and water, and can grow more.

In any kind of urban, metropolitan, or city, the only food source I can see (if things stopped working) would be long pork... and I don't think I'd care much for long pork. True, I've heard tell of some urbanistas having little plots of dirt, called yards, where they might raise enough food for a few weeks, if they could keep their starving neighbors from taking it. (Bait?)

I've lived pretty much all of my life as if the economy were in a depression. It can be done, and if expectations are lowered appropriately, one can actually have a good life. When I read about people making ~80K and suddenly find themselves homeless and unemployed, I ask myself, exactly what they spent that much money on. 80K would set me up for years.

__________________
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

Well I can see your point...IMO I have one life to live... I am going to live it up when I can...live it down when I have too, and I will be happy either way.

The creditors cannot take what I don't have. I know everybody on here will attack me for that statement, I should pay the man what I owe him bla bla bla....Again in my opinion I will while I have the money, I will make my payments and I will do it on time. But the minute I have a reduction in my income I am paying for shelter and food and everything else will have to wait.

The investment companies put us into this situation.... again.... They got a bailout from WE THE PEOPLE, they can stick it if I end up not being able to fullfill my dept obligation to them.

I came from nothing.... I worked my way up to actually making a little money and I can tell you from experience that the more you make, the more it costs you to live. that 80 K you think would set you for years is only about 50 K after taxes....10 K in child care so I can go to work....so now its down to 40 k. 1 k a month in education loan payments so now we are down to 28 K. take out the morgage, food, electric, waterbill, insurance......at the end of the year you really don't have much.

Cantcutter,

While I dont agree with you on abandoning your obligations, irrelevant of how much you make, I DO agree with you on your idea that the more you make the more it costs to live.

I would offer that that is why many homesteaders are what they are: they acknowledge your idea of the more you make, the more it costs. I think you could even take this one step further in that the more you make, the less happy you will become, to some degree. (ie money does not equal happiness).

I know that when my wife and I first started out and had next to nothing, that we sure seemed happy during those times, even as frought with challenges as those times were.

Irv

I can live on a lot less than I have now but I'd rather not- it's harder.

There are good things about city life ( jobs are easier to come by as are various services and help.) My father worked at his job selling furniture throughout the Depression. His salary went down but they always had enough to get by.

A person living in the country needs eye glasses or medical care or shoes or cloth or pay taxes. I know of one lady whose large family ran a productive small farm, but all the "good" eggs, milk and produce went to the city folks who could give them the money they needed for those things they could not make. They made do on the rest. Lots of stories about how they were going to get the money to pay one of the kid's hospital bills.




Lo

I agree.

I have friends making $80k - $120k. For a few of them I have even done their tax filing, and tried to advise them about tax-planning and investing. With their standard of living they are barely scrapping by.

I have often wondered, if anything upset their little boat, what would they do?

What have they gained by all of this expensive living?

I peaked at about $75k in my career before being thrown out onto a 20-yr pension. During my career I invested. So when I was forced onto pension, my portfolio bought us a farm.

I talk to friends who are still making the 'big bucks' and scratch my head. If they lose a job, their mortgages will be foreclosed, and it will be down to the river under a bridge for them.

They have each had decades of warning.

What else can be said to them?

The same is true of my highschool classmates, and my siblings, and many that I worked alongside of.

My parents were children before the Depression, so their entire lives have been molded by the effects of that era. My life as a child [though I did not experience the Depression myself] was still one of frugal living and stories of it.

Yet my siblings, classmates and friends from my 'generation' all seem to be utterly ignoring any common sense in this matter.

As a 'baby boomer' I do not understand why so many are living is such a manner.

I don't have to accuse you. You admitted presenting misinformation as facts.

You live down in an urban area in KY.
I live here in a rural area in VT.
You're trying to tell me what it's like here.
That is rather bizarre.

__________________
SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

Hell would freeze over before any banker would break a sweat today to pay back their customers. Kudos to your Grandfather, if only there were more like him around now.

From the AP News:
It is interesting to think about how this affects things. The economists seem to want things like the GNP to be high but then berate people for not saving enough. A high GNP can simply be the result of churn, not necessarily of real productivity.

My 16 year old son was reading the paper the other day after dinner and commented that perhaps this was not so much a recession as a return to sanity. He has something there. Maybe the belt tightening that comes with intermittent downturns is actually good for the economy by getting rid of wasteful spendthrift ways and making people more conscious of what they are doing and spending.

A lot of what this discussion list is about is how to do more with less, thriftiness and such. A recession may spur more people to that thinking. In the long run that is good for our economy. There will be a recovery in time, that is the nature of things. The result could be a stronger economy, nation and people.

__________________
SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

You have already posted that the economy has impacted you.

__________________
Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.