Is the economy screwed?

Country people had it worse than city folks with the dust bowl of that period. Many farmers in this country lost everything they had and had to pack up their families and move.

There is no such thing as complete self sufficiancy. Even if you own you land outright you still have to pay taxes on it which requires money...so yes the economy is impacting everybody.

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Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.

To get a perspective on just how much money has been poured down this rat hole...watch this little video.
http://www.garynorth.com/public/4527.cfm

As a tax paying citizen, I have to take issue with "walking away" from your house. Assuming you mean to walk away from your mortgage means you are walking out on your responsibility and backing out on your word. No one signs a bank note with the intention of "as long as times are good, I will pay what I owe". Jumping ship now only sticks the rest of us with cleaning up your mess you leave behind.

If you really want to walk away, sell your house outright, pay off the note, and maybe even clear a little profit to put into your new place. As your average tax payer, I don't need another bad debt on the books of my country...

So banks and the goberment can stick us with cleaning up their massive debt, but this individual cant? Didnt his bank only loan what his house is conservatively actually worth, I mean how can anybody lose??? Cant the bank simply flip it for a profit since they are so smart and honest and careful in their lending practices??? After the criminal games the banks and goberment have played and given themselves decks of get out of jail free cards on back of taxpayers, I dont really see how anybody can critisize anybody for doing anything.

By way in this economy try selling any house for a profit, unless you bought it in 70s and are willing to take a slight loss. LOL... Bankers are hoarding their bailout money so unless you can do a cash on barrelhead deal with the inherent lower pricing, you are screwed.

Personally I think we would all be betteroff in long run if we did away with credit all together. Wanna buy a house, scrimp and save and pay cash on barrelhead. Cut the bankers out of the deal entirely.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

No, it was a lot easier living in the country than the city during downturns. True, in the dust bowl they had problems but that was only a little economic, it was mostly environmental. During the period of the Great Depression, there were actually two totally separate issues going on. One was a crash of the high economy caused by the speculation, just like today.

The other was a drought in the flat lands. Most of the people who lived then in rural areas, and live now in rural areas, didn't live in the dust bowl and were not affected much or at all by that drought. When you experience drought it doesn't mean everyone experiences it. Droughts are fairly localized and there are some areas which never have droughts.

The issue with farmers who lost everything had to do with large mortgages for big iron and other things during an expansion period and was exacerbated by the dust bowl. The economic part was like happened in the mortgages today. Most farmers didn't have that and most farmers didn't lose everything, or anything.

What's happened is you're looking at history through a telescope and those details have been picked out as being impressive. They are, for those people. But I also know the history of the Great Depression from my parents and grand parents, my aunts, my uncles and a lot of older friends who all lived through the Great Depression. The reality is the Great Depression did not affect the rural areas as badly as it did the urban areas. This is why a great many families moved out of the cities and back to their rural roots. Out in the country things were not so bad.

The economic aspect also didn't make much difference to rural folk in a lot of places. They were already living the way that city folk had to learn to live.

Only as long as the government lasts.

The recession you're seeing has not affected us at all. Jobs have not changed much in our area. We just don't have the urban highs that have been affected. Yes, there are some individuals within our state who had stocks and were affected, but most people here do not own stocks, bonds and the like. Most people don't have those urban amenities so most people have not been touched by the implosion that the bailouts are trying to 'cure'. We also didn't have the speculative real estate market and extreme mortgages like some parts of the country had so that also is not affecting us.

The USA is not a unified blend. There are large areas that are very different than others and not affected by the same things. In people's self-centered, myopic view of the world they tend to forget this.

There is another way. We bought our place, and the place before it, directly from the owner. No bank involved. No real estate agent involved. We paid the previous owner a large down and the made monthly payments to them. They got a lot more money that way. We paid a lot less money that way. Cutting out the parasites, er, I mean middlemen, saves a lot. But of course that doesn't help boost the GNP so the government isn't fond of people doing this sort of thing. They would rather you spend extra so the economy 'looks' better. Still, it is perfectly legal. You don't have to use the credit system if you don't want.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

Right again, Walter.

My grandparents lived in northern Wisconsin when the first crash happened. My grandfather ran a bank in a small town. They lived very well. He had also bought 120 acres on a lake about 50 miles away as hunting land and it had a hunting shack on it. At that time, it was pretty cheap because it had recently been logged over and there weren't many trees left, etc. Once the crash hit, they lost everything, and Grandpa's bank folded just like all the others. I am told, however, that unlike all the other banks in his town, my grandfather eventually did pay back every dollar that was in his bank when it closed. He worked unloading railroad cars to pay people back their money.

They had to move out to the hunting shack, and lived there for a while. They fished, hunted, and cut wood to heat themselves while another, nicer house was built. That house still stands, and is now our little cottage in the northwoods that my family cherishes as our getaway spot.

I grew up sitting on the porch of that cottage, or next to the fire, listening to stories of the depression throught my parents and grandparents, and I didn't know it, but I was becoming a homesteader right then and there!

My grandpa grew up during what he called the "Hoover days." He said their family was not affected by it at all. They were sharecroppers and were "poor" anyway, so they kept living as they always did. My dad said just the other day that during the hoover days, people around here made "Hoover cars." They would take the front and rear axles out from under their cars because they could not buy gas and they would make a wood box and put the axles under it and they would hook a mule to it to pull the family where they needed to go. Pretty smart, huh!

That's not a popular thing to say on a board like this. Most think that people in the country are better off. They many times fail to realize that the money in the country now came from the city. The country people during the depression did survive but they were beyond poor. Move to today with property taxes and dependence on fuel especially for country people and the effects will be amazing. Sure there are some people who live more self sufficient then others.

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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self confidence"
Robert Frost

Welshmom, you are right, except for agreeing with Walter. Your grandfather was right in that he lived up to his responsibilities in paying people back. That is all I am saying that these people who are "walking out" out on their mortgages should do: live up to their word. What ever happened to people living up to their word? Irrelevant of however corrupt the "banks" may be (or one's perspective of them may be), your word is still your word and a person should have enough dignity and self respect to stand behind it. When deadbeats walk away for their commitments, they are no better than the "corrupt" banks and government.

Everyone wants to blame the banks for this mess. This has, sadly enough, become the average American philosophy: "everything is someone else's fault and someone else needs to fix this for me". I don't know of a single bank out there that FORCED someone to take out a mortgage that was more than they could pay or more than they needed. Every individual who is overextended needs to recognize this as the individual's fault, not as "the country's" fault or "the bank's" fault.

So, here we all sit: waiting for another government "stimulus" check, waiting for the government to "fix" what we have all created. Imagine if we all took our stimulus check and put it in savings or paid off debt.... :> That would drive the treasury nuts.... Imagine if for 6 months, everyone seriously paid down debt in this country and pledged to not live on credit again... We would once again be a nation of wealth.

Irv

Shelly, be careful about not paying unsecured. They can obtain judgement against you and garnish your wages/bank account. Secured debt is easier to walk away from because the lender can take the assets.

Yes, city money flows to the country. But resources flow from the country to the city. The reality is we have what we need to live here in the country. Things coming from the cities are luxuries and not necessary when times get hard. They're also not things that a lot of us in the rural areas even have during high times.

Beyond poor... That's all a matter of perspective. We have more than the city folk have. We have our land. You can't live in an apartment. People in apartment's don't even own the apartment in virtually all cases. They rent. When they lose their jobs they lose their home too. We own our home so if times get hard we survive. We can raise food, we burn wood we cut from our land, etc. It's much easier to make it through hard times out in the country and the recession really doesn't affect the rural areas nearly as much as the urban areas.

Taxes are higher in places with more services. In really rural areas, like here, we have very little in the way of government services. Our town municipal budget is almost entirely road maintenance and that is almost entirely plowing. Our municipal budget is not very much, about $50/month/person. If you don't pay your taxes the town will go for years, patiently dunning you. In time almost everyone eventually pays up. The town's not worried, they have the lien and they know people do pay. Of course, there is interest and a late fee - you pay a little extra for being late.

This is true.

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

Walter...
I hate to break the news to you, but you really live in a bubble..

I know that you are a Flatlander and I will forgive you for your short comings. However; Vermont and surounding states have been hit the hardest by this economic downturn....IBM just laid off 350 people...that is huge for one of the largest employers in the state. My brother is a contracter in the NEK and has not had steady work in over two years. My best friend went from owning a True Value franchise that went from doing over two million is sales a year and employing 17 full time staff members to doing only 150 K in sales in 08 and having to close the doors. Take a glance in the Burlington free press, Valley News, Caledonia record at the employment ads...or lack there of.

You use money. You get that money by some means....maybe it is selling a pig here and there or selling logs off of your property or you have a side job you don't talk about. However you get it, it keeps you from being self sufficient. When your customer looses their job and can't buy a pig off of you...then what? Sure you may have enough pigs to eat for a while and enough wood on your land to heat your concrete cabin for a while, but those things will run out...Your pigs and chickens will starve faster than you can eat them if you don't have money to buy feed for them. You have 600,000 people in 2000 square miles. 300 people per square mile. How long do you think your livestock and firewood will last when hungry and cold desperate people are stealing your pigs and cutting your firewood? You will not have the hunt and gather option for long either as there is only 50 deer per square mile in a state of hunters.

So with a total collaps of the government like you think will happen, you will be up you know which creek without a paddle and Cynthia flannigan will still be in the clerks office waiting for your property taxes.

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Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.

Got news for you Sugarbush, I'm not a flatlander.
Additional news, IBM laid of 350 people in an urban area, not really rural. Visit it.
Additional news, 350 laid off people is trivial. It's just flux.
Additional news, the problems some industries, like newspapers are having, are old news - they haven't kept up with the changing ways of doing things. The Valley News (Snooze as it is called around here) is a prime example of being Behind the Times (actually the name of another newspaper).
Where I am we are not seeing the layoffs.

Reality, the economic problems they're having in the urban areas really aren't affecting people in the rural areas very much. The collapse of Wall Street, Sub-Prime Mortgage Speculation, Detroit's fiaso and all that are really a problem that doesn't affect rural people that much. We shouldn't be bailing them out. They gambled and lost. They took risks. If they had won they would would not want to share their winnings. They should absorb their losses.

You also have very little understanding of averages, square miles, density and people and your data is faulty. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont. Reality check on your people scenerio: City people don't suddenly rush out to the country and eat everything up like locus. Get real.

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

One of the things that I suspect causes confusion is people mix up the ideas of need vs want, of necessity vs luxury. Urban areas are far more fixated on consuming luxuries than rural areas. Urban areas also have less ability to produce necessities than rural areas. This basic reality means that rural areas are more shock resistant than urban areas. When you don't live so high you don't fall so low. Urbanites, by their very nature, don't want to admit this but it is a reality. That is a lot of why many people want to homestead, to provide their own basic necessities as much as they can. Sure, luxuries are nice, but they aren't necessary. I enjoy chocolate. I can live without it.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

Bold # 1. Don't believe it for a minute.
Bold # 2. Your understand of Vermont state economics is lacking in that the majority of people commute to work, so yes it is layoffs of rural people.
Bold # 3. Are you admitting that you hold a regular job or are you refering to Topsham as being "where you are"? No Topsham is not going to see layoffs because the only jobs there are are a handfull of elected positions. Everybody else either farms, logs or drives to Barre, Montpelier, Burlington or Lebanon to work.
Bold # 4. I actually agree with.
Bold # 5. I am shocked that you would cite wikipedia, however my geographic data is faulty and I stand corrected....65 people per square mile.

And yes my statement about people staealing all your livestock and firewood is extreme, but it was in response to your extremely extreme statement about there being no property taxes with the total collaps of governement.....

I hope that we never see the day that you are preparing for. And I will agree that your geographic location is a better one than mine for such a situation, but not because it is rural and is not impacted by the economic crisis. rather because communities up their are close knit and towns people will pull together to get eachother through it.... As far as urbanites converging on the rural areas..you live in a state where the majority of the offspring of the past 30 years has moved out of state...where do you think we are all going to head in a crisis.....BACKHOME

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Justice is the insurance which we have on our lives and property. Obedience is the premium which we pay for it.

Wow, you're really aggressive about this. What has got your tail in such a yank?

You don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, I have a regular job - I farm. That is my job. What?!? You don't think farming is a job. Interesting... Around here a tremendous number of people are farmers, loggers or otherwise self-employed. We are not dependent on Wall Street with it's vagaries.

Why would you be shocked at citing Wikipedia? It is an excellent resource and filled with highly accurate information, unlike your false claims. Try sticking to the facts.

Why do you care so much? You're in Lexington, KY according to your userID - big city. I see, so you are feeling pinched by the economy and don't want to hear about the fact that it isn't hurting other people so much.

Oh, so you just like being sarcastic. I wasn't being so. If there is no government the property taxes will also be gone. That's reality.

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

I look for times to get even rougher. Just this morning, 37 jobs were cut at a little town not far from us where they make all those big wind turbines. The young family that rents from us is struggling, they work minimum wage jobs....her hours have been cut, his job is gone and he is cutting wood, trying to supplement income. We will stand by them, that is why I am a terrible landlord, I cannot see moving anyone out in hard times, we will get through it together. We will plant a bigger garden, stop buying those non-essentials, and make do with what we have, and share with the neighbors.

I am a flatlander as I live in Kansas. The economy around here has always been slightly depressed. Now it is getting worse. I have a paid for mini farm of 3 3/4 acres. My family and friends all have jobs but.. and a big but... they are slowly losing their jobs or working fewer hours. I have had to reduce my livestock as the price of feed has doubled in the last 2 years. There isn't much of a market either. I hate to sell all my goats as I have a feeling I will need the Boers for meat and the LaMancha's for milk. Groceries are just getting higher and higher.
I am happy for Walter since his farm is still making enough money for him to feel good about it. Most of us are not that fortunate.
My grandfather lost everything in the last depression. He burned down his brickyard so they couldn't use it. a little extreme but he was used to being sucessful and later he had a stroke and died. My mother said they had enough to eat but little money for anything "store bought".
I try to be optimistic but with the wealthy people like the big bankers thinking, "every man for himself" and giving themselves my tax dollars for bonuses, what chance do i have?
We can discuss this all day but none of us has any real idea what is going to happen or when it is going to happen. I feel in my heart that it will be too soon. Am I ready? Nope. I don't know what to prepare for at this time. It doesn't help when one son pointed out that when the polar ice caps melt my little farm here in Kansas, could be underwater.
I plan on helping everyone I can help. No hoarding, no shooting starving people. I will share with my family, neighbors, and friends, and when it is all gone I will starve with them.

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Living the good life in Kansas.

i truly do admire your attitude. we are all in this mess together. its great to hear someone post about how they are pulling together, having compassion for the less able, and trying to stick it out.

i hope given the same opportunity i would do the same.

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mama said don't argue with stupid people, its not nice

brillantly said. couldnt' agree more--if i start a business and run it into the ditch, no more business. i see no reason why they are getting bailed out. and to add insult, then hearing how they are using the money, gag.

and it does crack me up hearing how some are learning to cut back by having coffee at home instead of drivethru starbucks. are you kidding me? what a joke!

the entitlement i see is astounding.

i do think us countryside dwellers will suffer aplenty if this continues, but we can still eat and keep warm. part of that i believe, is simply knowledge of how to milk a goat or bag a deer.

but the poster who feels like taking a walk, i do understand. i am finding it difficult to be honest with taxes when i see what they do with my money. so why be honest anywhere, when this is what happens? sadly tho., they prolly have yer tush in a sling if you welch, so it prolly not a great plan, but a lovely thought none-the-less!
after watching Glenn Beck today and the news past 6 months, I just want to say forget it. I have gotten so totally sick of our government I just want to do a drop out of society move. We are seriously considering walking away from our house.putting up a humble pole home..on our paid for land, have a garden ,some goats, chickens...and quit even trying to play the game. ITs not a fair playing field, When I see ther government giving itself more money for operating expenses..bailing out big business's while americans lose their jobs and homes., sink from medical bills, can't hardly afford to feed their families, all the extravagants spending of a corrupt political system put on the backs of the middle class and we are falling under the burdens...it po's me off.
Tell me..am I crazed to be thinking at 50 what so many hippies in the 60's thought? If ya can't beat em..leave em.?


i have much of these same feelings. defeat and anger. nope, not crazed. quite a normal reaction, IMHO. the hard part is, i don't think there is anywhere you can really 'get rid of' it. sadly.