Is the economy screwed?

Txsteader · #41 01/27/09, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crisco41

after watching Glenn Beck today and the news past 6 months, I just want to say forget it. I have gotten so totally sick of our government I just want to do a drop out of society move. We are seriously considering walking away from our house.putting up a humble pole home..on our paid for land, have a garden ,some goats, chickens...and quit even trying to play the game. ITs not a fair playing field, When I see ther government giving itself more money for operating expenses..bailing out big business's while americans lose their jobs and homes., sink from medical bills, can't hardly afford to feed their families, all the extravagants spending of a corrupt political system put on the backs of the middle class and we are falling under the burdens...it po's me off.
Tell me..am I crazed to be thinking at 50 what so many hippies in the 60's thought? If ya can't beat em..leave em.?

It's a wise way to live, even in good times. It never pays to be foolish. And life is much less stressful when you're not 'playing the game'. At least you have more control over your life and not apt to be tossed around by every ill wind that blows.

But I also believe that we can't give government a free pass....not if we want our grandkids to have a chance to live free and enjoy the fruits of their labor. I'm trying to get people to be more pro-active about what's going on. Somebody commented that 'it's just the way it is', to which I replied 'but it's not the way it's supposed to be'. We have a responsibility to future generations to take a stand for what's right and good.

chewie · #42 01/27/09, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crisco41

after watching Glenn Beck today and the news past 6 months, I just want to say forget it. I have gotten so totally sick of our government I just want to do a drop out of society move. We are seriously considering walking away from our house.putting up a humble pole home..on our paid for land, have a garden ,some goats, chickens...and quit even trying to play the game. ITs not a fair playing field, When I see ther government giving itself more money for operating expenses..bailing out big business's while americans lose their jobs and homes., sink from medical bills, can't hardly afford to feed their families, all the extravagants spending of a corrupt political system put on the backs of the middle class and we are falling under the burdens...it po's me off.
Tell me..am I crazed to be thinking at 50 what so many hippies in the 60's thought? If ya can't beat em..leave em.?

i certainly don't think your crazed at all--i totally agree with you! the more i deal with ppl, the more i just want to do what you described--and we are somewhat--putting up the humble pole shed house, i have goats, prolly get chickens, do the garden. i too feel really ticked when i see how our govt spends money i will later have to give them. i ain't got it! and when i have to go without, and they are living lavishly, something very wrong. their pensions are enough to make me spitting mad!

so in a word, yes. the economy is screwed.

crisco41 · #43 01/27/09, 06:55 PM

Their special gvt retirement and pensions for life with their medical care makes my head spin. I truly think they should all be dumped in the Boston Harbor...with cement block anklets.

shellycoley · #44 01/27/09, 07:23 PM

I'm thinking that dh and I should just quit paying on unsecured debts.
Send them a letter stating
"As a result of the current economy, we will be unable to
make any additional payments on this account. Our applolgies,"
Only continue to pay the house payment which includes the insurance and taxes and my car which will be paid off in about August or September.
What diffenence is it going to make if we lower our precious "credit score" I imagine in about another year "credit scores" will be completely meaningless.
I think we should put money into making this house as self relient as possible, ideally able to make at least half the morgtage off the land somehow.
Shelly

rafter · #45 01/29/09, 11:35 AM

I doubt there will be anybody on this forum or anywhere else that won't be affected from what the economy is going to do. We are not headed for the 'great depression', but rather the "greatest depression".

The US is bankrupt. Without foreign money bailing us out we would already be at Iceland's level. This is a world event, not just the US.

The tarp money is being used by the banks to buy oil tankers and fill them with oil. (Can you read the writing on the wall?) They will then 'invest' heavily in oil driving up the price and then sell at massive profits. Get ready to see $4-$6 gas again. (not good for a bad economy)

The economy will continue to tank. We are a consumer nation and we have stopped. We are now in a snowball effect....as more jobs are lost, more people quit consuming, and more lose their houses. Then more jobs are lost and the circle continues.

We will enter the Depression (which actually we are already in if you take away ...unemployment insurance, welfare, food stamps, and social security) later this year. It will last at least for a couple of years >>(there is nothing to change it ...war doesn't work anymore)

We will go through deflation...then as the economy turns around sometime in 2011-2012..we will go to hyperinflation....

The govt., will then induce another recession to control the hyperinflation.

By now you are talking 2013.

This is here to stay. None of us will ever see the economy we had in the late 90's and early 2000's in our lifetime.

chewie · #46 01/29/09, 11:48 AM

credit scores are a joke! ours is some of the best in our county, the office gals at the bank have wide eyed stares when they see our score--we spend veyr little, and less if we dont' hve it! in other words, we only live within, actually below, our means. we dont 'have alot' but that is just fine by us, cuz we got this snazzy score, right?! nope! when trying to get our house loan, that score did very little for us, because WE DONT' OWN anything big--what'??? yup! we owe NOTHING, we do have some land, (small amt.) our cars, (older but work), some livestock. that aint' good enough! we dont' own a house (yet), or any other big ticket items, so they looked at us like we were nothing. our 'score' got us nowhere. then after so many inquires into our score, it dropped without us doing any buying or anything else!? argh!!

rafter--what are you doing to protect yourself from this issue? i am not sure if its really that grim, but i also wouldn't bet it ain't, etiher!

4sam · #47 01/29/09, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvin Cooper

The root of the problem is greed and people living beyond their means.

I would propose that this downturn is one of the best things for our country as a whole and is long overdue. Some people call it a "correction". I would simply call it "paying for past sins". Either way, we HAVE to go through this in order to survive.

This economy is going to force people (and hopefully the country) out of debt and will hopefully cause people to stop seeing credit as part of their net worth and quality of life. It will hopefully draw communities back together, will cause innovations in new energy development, and create new local jobs in local businesses. There are tons of obstacles to making this happen, such as changing federal and state laws which prevent successful small farming and the success of small business, but when things finally get bad enough, the policies will change out of necessity.

The loss of all of the major retailers is just the needed start of eliminating excess. Circuit City, Starbucks, tanning salons, kmart/sears. How much of what they sell these days matters and how can we justify in our minds spending $1500 on a tv, $4 on coffee, $100 on a tan, way too much money on bath towels with Martha Stewarts name on them??? All of these are symbols of our greed, and the sooner we get rid of them, the better.

Unfortunately, its like losing weight: it took years to put it on, and to expect it to come off in just a few months is unreasonable. It will take a period of sustained "correction" for us to get back to what really matters and what made this country the greatest on earth.

Irv

This is one of the best responses I read so far. I agree 100% !!!!

rafter · #48 01/29/09, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chewie

credit scores are a joke! ours is some of the best in our county, the office gals at the bank have wide eyed stares when they see our score--we spend veyr little, and less if we dont' hve it! in other words, we only live within, actually below, our means. we dont 'have alot' but that is just fine by us, cuz we got this snazzy score, right?! nope! when trying to get our house loan, that score did very little for us, because WE DONT' OWN anything big--what'??? yup! we owe NOTHING, we do have some land, (small amt.) our cars, (older but work), some livestock. that aint' good enough! we dont' own a house (yet), or any other big ticket items, so they looked at us like we were nothing. our 'score' got us nowhere. then after so many inquires into our score, it dropped without us doing any buying or anything else!? argh!!

rafter--what are you doing to protect yourself from this issue? i am not sure if its really that grim, but i also wouldn't bet it ain't, etiher!

We lived on what we made. Paid cash for everything, then after 10 years went to buy a used jeep. We had NO credit score. We ended up having to pay 18% interest because of it.

You are better off if you want credit to owe everyone. But there is no way we can live with that stress, so we either have to pay it or do without. I still believe that owing no one is best.

We are now relocating, buying what we can afford in the cheapest area we can find a house and a little land and are going as self sufficient as possible.

kjmatson · #49 01/29/09, 12:43 PM

I am curious.....where is my bail out???

Now is the time to produce for yourself.

kjmatson · #50 01/29/09, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafter

We lived on what we made. Paid cash for everything, then after 10 years went to buy a used jeep. We had NO credit score. We ended up having to pay 18% interest because of it.

You are better off if you want credit to owe everyone. But there is no way we can live with that stress, so we either have to pay it or do without. I still believe that owing no one is best.

We are now relocating, buying what we can afford in the cheapest area we can find a house and a little land and are going as self sufficient as possible.

I admire people who do it the way you do rafter. My wife and I are installing a safe in the house and only buying with cash from here on out. We produce about half of our food now, but that will increase come this spring. I don't believe our system is designed to fail, however, I do believe our Government and Corporations have failed us. Greed is a sin that will collapse an entire country.

Junkmanme · #51 01/29/09, 01:24 PM

It seems an "impossible" chore for my microeconomic mind to digest the macroeconomic tumult occuring presently. One of the problems causing my mental indigestion is the "dearth" of ACCURATE, INSIGHTFUL, economic data available to the average person. (The "NEWS" is always filtered through generally uneducated journalists who have their own "agenda".)
I SUSPECT that the MAIN problem facing the world economies is the aggregation of FEAR, IGNORANCE, and INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION.
If you are "doing OK" and don't know a flood is coming, you just keep plowing that bottomland.
a Recession is when your neighbor is "out of work". A Depression is when YOU are "out of work".
People produce and people find viable alternatives.......and in a Capitalistic System, these people get paid for their efforts.

Personally, I expect things to "turn around" (positively), with quite a few changes apparent.....but it's going to take a few years.....

just my 2 pesos worth,

Junkmanme :baby04:
P.S. Man recycles a lot....Alum. cans, junk cars, plastic, cardboard, etc.

**highlands** · #52 01/29/09, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafter

I doubt there will be anybody on this forum or anywhere else that won't be affected from what the economy is going to do.

Our perspective is very different. The "recession" has made no difference in our lives. The Great Depression didn't hurt a lot of rural people the way it did the city folk. The city folk just had to start living more reasonably after the roaring 20's. The cycle's keep going round and round but it is the people who go so high that fall so low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafter

We are not headed for the 'great depression', but rather the "greatest depression".

Maybe. My 16 year old son was reading about it in the paper after dinner the other night and his comment was that it wasn't a recession, it was a return to sanity. He was amazed at how high people live in the urban areas and how bitterly they complain about having to learn to live reasonably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafter

The US is bankrupt.

They'll just print more money. This lowers the value of the existing money. Don't keep your assets in cash, savings, etc. Printing more money is the traditional way that governments, for thousands of years, have 'taken care' of this problem.

What I do object to is that the government is spending my money and our children's money to bail out investors. They took risks and should fail. That's the way the system is supposed to work. I don't mind doing the infrastructure investments but handing money over to the investors, bankers, automakers, etc is just plain absurd.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

rafter · #53 01/29/09, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlands

Our perspective is very different. The "recession" has made no difference in our lives. The Great Depression didn't hurt a lot of rural people the way it did the city folk. The city folk just had to start living more reasonably after the roaring 20's. The cycle's keep going round and round but it is the people who go so high that fall so low.

Maybe. My 16 year old son was reading about it in the paper after dinner the other night and his comment was that it wasn't a recession, it was a return to sanity. He was amazed at how high people live in the urban areas and how bitterly they complain about having to learn to live reasonably.

They'll just print more money. This lowers the value of the existing money. Don't keep your assets in cash, savings, etc. Printing more money is the traditional way that governments, for thousands of years, have 'taken care' of this problem.

What I do object to is that the government is spending my money and our children's money to bail out investors. They took risks and should fail. That's the way the system is supposed to work. I don't mind doing the infrastructure investments but handing money over to the investors, bankers, automakers, etc is just plain absurd.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

Are you 100% self sufficient? If not it will affect you.

I agree on the people that have been living life on the extreme level will have to come down to reality. IMO its about time.

But tell me ....why will the economy get better? What reason is there for it to turn around? What can cause it to turn around?

This is not something that has occurred in the past few years, but it is decades in the making.

**highlands** · #54 01/29/09, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafter

Are you 100% self sufficient? If not it will affect you.

No, but we can be. We are self-sufficient for all the essentials. And the recession to date has not affected us at all. If anything it is nice to see the prices coming back down after last year's artificial high driven by the speculation on oil and corn that drove up the prices of so many things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafter

But tell me ....why will the economy get better?

Because it does. Cycles go around. Look at history. The blackout may last a thousand years but in time it will get better. The Dark Ages don't last forever.

stanb999 · #55 01/29/09, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlands

No, but we can be. We are self-sufficient for all the essentials. And the recession to date has not affected us at all. If anything it is nice to see the prices coming back down after last year's artificial high driven by the speculation on oil and corn that drove up the prices of so many things.

Because it does. Cycles go around. Look at history. The blackout may last a thousand years but in time it will get better. The Dark Ages don't last forever.

Walter, Now if we enter a dark age for 1000 years. For me and you and everyone we will ever know it will be forever.

ET1 SS · #56 01/29/09, 04:28 PM

We are certainly working along our way toward being self-sufficient.

I would suggest that everyone do likewise.

ET1 SS · #57 01/29/09, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanb999

Walter, Now if we enter a dark age for 1000 years. For me and you and everyone we will ever know it will be forever.

That could be neat

Razorback21 · #58 01/29/09, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crisco41

We are seriously considering walking away from our house.putting up a humble pole home..on our paid for land, have a garden ,some goats, chickens...and quit even trying to play the game. ITs not a fair playing field, When I see ther government giving itself more money for operating expenses..bailing out big business's while americans lose their jobs and homes., sink from medical bills, can't hardly afford to feed their families, all the extravagants spending of a corrupt political system put on the backs of the middle class and we are falling under the burdens...it po's me off.
Tell me..am I crazed to be thinking at 50 what so many hippies in the 60's thought? If ya can't beat em..leave em.?

You are not the only one thinking that...I find it very frustrating that the currency all of used is being systematically destroyed with all these bailout dollars, that we will have to pay more in taxes, and my retirement plans have been pushed back Lord knows how long.

I have been looking in land back in Arkansas so that if it does get that bad, we can walk away and live off the land down there where I will feel safer and more secure and hopefully, won't get taxed off my land.

ET1 SS · #59 01/29/09, 04:39 PM

I figure that most homesteading folks can afford $1.05 per acre for taxes. At least that is what forested land is taxed around here.

And we do have a network of communes in this area too.

**highlands** · #60 01/29/09, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanb999

Walter, Now if we enter a dark age for 1000 years. For me and you and everyone we will ever know it will be forever.

Really?!? Now don't go getting my hopes up...