Is this SHTF, or are you expecting something much more dire?

There's no question that the market is being manipulated, the government openly admits that it's being manipulated, with OUR money. Bush & Paulson have told us outright that part of the $700 billion bailout is being used to buy stock at strategic times to support the banking industry, as well as other industries. We also know that the FED is also involved in similar activities.

So the question isn't IF they are manipulating the market, since they obviously are, the better question is who knows about it. Can you imagine being in on the government pumping $20 or $30 billion into the market some afternoon, and even knowing which companies will be targeted!

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Seems likely that Stagflation is in the future for most of us. My instinct is that forward thinking family groups will be considering what they can offer as barter, labor or goods, to preserve cash. Inflation can jump up pretty quick which only helps debtors and the U.S. Government pay obligations with cheaper dollars. My instinct is to quietly hunker down and plan on living small until at least sometime in 2010. Predictions I hear say jobs are expected to become really scarce through 2009.

This is a great country and our underlying economy will make the needed changes and rise again to be a strong, proud example for the world. Personally, if I were still raising a family, I would prepare to work at several assorted jobs. Come to think about it, I always worked two jobs in those days...Glen

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The more a man travels, acquires wisdom and learns about life, the more likely he is to marry a Country Girl.

SHTF happened in Russia, Germany and everywhere inbetween during WWII.The flu pandemic of 1918 or American civil war.
So far some Americans are having financial troubles certainly not pleasant times.Thankfully millions of people are not being murdered or dying from epidemic or starvation.
Most of recorded history would not think of our current situation as anything but a minor inconvience.

I feel optimistic. Yes IMO this hard patch might worsen and hang for a while...we didn't get in this hole in a short time...but overall, I believe our economy will improve, and our strength as a nation will be on the incline as well.

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"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow the fields of those who don't."-Thomas Jefferson

We've only just begun.................

Observations only:
1. We haven't hit bottom yet.
2. The biggest single advantage of your 401K plan.....Dollar cost averaging.....Those "shares" that cost $12.00/per are now only going to cost $1.00/per so you'll have a WHOLE lot more of them. Sure your paper looks bleak right now (and honestly a little scary..) but a couple of years of decent returns and you'll be back in good shape. If you are within 5 years of retirement, sorry buddy....you might just have to work another couple of years. If you are 10 or more years out....sit back and take a deep breath....We'll get through this ok.
3. Social Security?? You are kidding right?....Did you actually think it was designed as a retirement plan? It was only intended to keep the old folks from having to eat cat food. Those of us that have paid into the system from our first paycheck ever realized a LONG time ago that there wouldn't be anything left when we got there.
4. Think you're "safe" from all this because you have no debt and have stocked your fields and larders? Exactly how long do you plan on working those fields? The costs of your medicines are going up just as your body is going to be giving out. Sorry to dissappoint you comrade but where do you think people are going to wind up when the going gets tough in the city??? Give it up for the good of the community or the community will just have to take it. Surely you don't think you can guard both the homesite and the field at the same time??
5. No easy "one size fits all" as to the question of is this the SHTF......It rests entirely with each individual. For some these times are what they feared most, for others it is an alarm clock simply worthy of hitting the snooze bar one more time, for others it is seen as the opportunity of a lifetime.

Poor Karl...

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Christanie Farm...living life as it was intended

Good point.

When martial law is enforced, when 20% of our population has died, when unemployment is 99%, and foreign troops are invading; then S has HTF.

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http://www.mofga.org/Programs/FarmAp...2/Default.aspx

I intend to work for rest of my life. I don't intend to ever retire. Retirement is a strange concept that came about in the middle of the last century. Before that people continued to work at what ever they were able in their family for as long as they could. I come from very long lived healthy stock virtually all of whom remain very active working their entire lives because they want to. When you stop doing you start dying. Additionally I have a wonderful family - that's better than any retirement plan or 401K.

By the way, stocking one's larder doesn't make you ready for TSHTF type events. The larder lasts maybe a year. You need the skills and resources to continue producing food indefinitely. You need the connections and community. Develop those now while you have the leisure to do so.

Certainly not in the city or anywhere close to one.

You don't have much concept of what rural life is like. It's hundreds of miles to a city from where we are. We're in a state that has no 'cities', no 'urban' areas. Our biggest 'city' is merely a town on the national scale and would fit into one NYC building. We already have community connections that deal with what city people consider to be tough economic times. What you think of as a recession or depression is just normal times. It is the high flying investment bankers and their ilk who need to learn about community and reality. Someday they will - high times don't last forever. Perhaps this is the time. Perhaps not. Just in case, sharpen up your homesteading skills.

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

What does SHTF mean?

"Stuff" Hit The Fan.

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sugar hits the fan... or other creative "s" words.

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Agreed.

This is the absolute best time to be contributing to a 401K.

Those that are close to retirement should have had a balanced retirement portfolio anyways, to offset their stock losses.

You weren't born at such and such hospital, were you? Separated at birth and whatnot? Amazing that I can agree with someone so much.

I don't plan on retiring... I'm retired right now, from the rat race... my current cash cow is fat... when and if she goes dry, I'll go back to doing what I know best... playing in the dirt.

To all the folks that have large 401K and other paper investments, this indeed might be the shtf your momma always warned you about... I've heard rumours that all investment vehicles are on the chopping block, eligible for redistribution. Question is? Since I have no 401k, am I eligible for a portion of yours? Just joking... I'm sure if it comes down to a 'Mugabe', I'll lose all my dirt too...

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

"Spit hits the fan" works.

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When the great redistributor of wealth takes office, the "wealthy" will be closing their businesses and laying off workers so they can afford to pay their taxes. Then without the businesses, they won't be wealthy anymore, and will no longer have the dollars to pay. Socialism doesn't raise the standard of living. It lowers it so that everyone is equally poor.

We ain't seen nuttin yet!

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I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam.

Popeye

You think there will be any business left by the time Obama takes office?

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I don't think we've seen the worst, not by a long shot. I believe someone already mentioned "the calm before the storm" in one of the post. That's how I'm feeling but I get the sense that most folks around me looked at this like a car accident...they stopped and gawked for a few minutes, then drove away thinking it won't happen to them.

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CJ

Oh, Brother! We have found each other! Now the good news... We're not twins, we're manimillionuplets!

Vote!

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

This is a good and fine sentiment. I don't PLAN on not working the rest of my life either. But I've also seen people who didn't PLAN on not being able to work end up being in that position due to health issues.

However, not everyone has family they can depend upon to care for them in the event they can no longer care for themselves. It is a sad fact that parents DO sometimes outlive their children. Or that their children see their parents care as a burden and place them in nursing homes (I saw a LOT of that when MIL was recuperating from extended hospital stays in a local nursing home.)

DH is an only child, I'm the youngest of two. My brother, despite warnings from family and doctors, continued self-destructive behaviors and now he lives in a care facility himself and is entirely unable to provide assistance to our 85 year old mother. Some people would say that as a loving sister I should move my brother closer so I can oversee his care, but there is no way I could take care of him and our mother. Fortunately Mom is in pretty darned good health (MUCH better health than Big Brother) and only needs a bit of help with shopping and heavy household tasks.

I took care of MIL the last year or so of her life, when it became obvious she could no longer live completely independently. I was pleased to be able to provide care and companionship, but there was no way DH and I could ever have taken care of all her medical bills. If her son by some awful accident had died before we got married and she was alone in life until her health declined, there would have been NO ONE to care for her when she needed help and she would have ended up in a nursing home. As a daughter, I shudder to think what might have happened to my own mother had something happened to ME before I got married, despite the fact that I'm not her only child. Thank goodness Dad had the foresight to develop a financial plan that would take care of Mom. He made sure she will have enough money to meet her fiscal needs.

Then there is DH and I. We have no children and KNOW that no one will be around for us but each other if we should need assistance in old age. So, we try our best to plan for the future. We invest in several income streams so if the time should come we can no longer care for each other that we can stay together and independent as long as possible.

From my personal experience I've concluded that depending on family to take care of one in one's old age isn't always reliable or even available. So alternate plans might not be a bad idea for some.