Ford is Really Dumb .....65 MPG !

ErinP · #21 09/09/08, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisconsin Ann

when we bought our jetta diesel in 2006, we researched the diesel thing with great interest...as to WHY there were so few, and WHY VW wasn't going to have any for the next year. Diesel emission standards are WAY beyond what any other country has in place. Making the cars conform to the US standards makes them so 1)expensive and 2) drops the mileage by 30% or more...so they're just not competitive. VW has been working on some ideas, as have a few other companies. Unfortunately, the US has decided to buck the world trend of using diesel and the government wants to concentrate on hybrids and ethanol.

Personally, I think it's nuts. Diesel engines were originally desined to work on veggie oil. No changes are needed to run a diesel on veggie oil during warm months. Once it hits late fall, you need to warm the oil so it's fluid enough....and once you get the vehicle running and the engine warm, you don't even have to do THAT. You do have to be careful of the oil gelling in the engine when it cools down. (that's where the dual tanks work...start and stop using diesel fuel, in the middle you run on oil)

okay. I'll get down off my soap box now.

I think I have that same soap box in the corner of my garage.

Even if they just started doing more veggie/petro blends, we'd be better off. The nearest veggie station for me is 90 miles away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cygnet

Not only does a 4 cylinder Ranger realistically get about 20mpg, but my 6 cylinder full-size extended cab Silverado gets the SAME mpg (it averages around 21), with a lot more oomph, a full sized bed, and a back seat.

Just sayin'.

Our F250 PowerStroke gets 20mpg highway. And it can tow 22,000 pounds. (Though I wouldn't make a habit of it...) It also has 200K on the clock and is just getting broke in.
Not only are they more efficient, but a diesel engine can easily last twice as long as a gasser...

Diesel vehicles have so much going for them, I can truly not understand why we Americans don't demand them.

FL.Boy · #22 09/09/08, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

I think I have that same soap box in the corner of my garage.

Even if they just started doing more veggie/petro blends, we'd be better off. The nearest veggie station for me is 90 miles away.

Our F250 PowerStroke gets 20mpg highway. And it can tow 22,000 pounds. (Though I wouldn't make a habit of it...) It also has 200K on the clock and is just getting broke in.
Not only are they more efficient, but a diesel engine can easily last twice as long as a gasser...

Diesel vehicles have so much going for them, I can truly not understand why we Americans don't demand them.

I have sat down and did the gas vs diesel in the long run they come out even. You can buy a gas truck for $5,000 less, the up keep is 50% less and i have seen a few gas or propane cars and tucks run for 300,000 miles.

Hoop · #23 09/09/08, 04:53 PM

Ford claims labor is too costly in the US, and is moving jobs out of the US. Honda, Toyota and Nissan are moving jobs into the US by building plants here.

Detroits short term thinking is leading them down the road to disaster. The Auto Execs are fiddling as the ship sinks more each day.

I read earlier today the automotive companies are looking for corporate welfare in the form of low cost guaranteed gov't backed loans.

Lucky for these auto executives, they're living in the US. If they were residing in China....they'd be led to the gallows.

ErinP · #24 09/09/08, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL.Boy

I have sat down and did the gas vs diesel in the long run they come out even. You can buy a gas truck for $5,000 less, the up keep is 50% less and i have seen a few gas or propane cars and tucks run for 300,000 miles.

Yet a diesel can be expected to hit 300K easily.
So far as 50% less on upkeep. What are you figuring on here?

In 100K miles, we've put on tires, shocks, ball joints, a water pump and an alternator. Any of those things would need maintenance/replacement on a gasser, too.

BTW, if you're shopping, you wait until they've got about 100K on them. The diesel will still be like new, but they'll have both depreciated to the point that the price difference is negligible.

FL.Boy · #25 09/09/08, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

Yet a diesel can be expected to hit 300K easily.
So far as 50% less on upkeep. What are you figuring on here?

In 100K miles, we've put on tires, shocks, ball joints, a water pump and an alternator. Any of those things would need maintenance/replacement on a gasser, too.

BTW, if you're shopping, you wait until they've got about 100K on them. The diesel will still be like new, but they'll have both depreciated to the point that the price difference is negligible.

They hold more oil $ bigger oil filter $ fuel filters that need changed way more than gas motors because diesel is the dirtiest fuel out there. I have seen gas motors run 150,000 with never raising the hood try that with a diesel it isn't going to happen. Now if you tow heavy stuff a lot then diesel is good.

ErinP · #26 09/09/08, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL.Boy

They hold more oil $ bigger oil filter $ fuel filters that need changed way more than gas motors because diesel is the dirtiest fuel out there. I have seen gas motors run 150,000 with never raising the hood try that with a diesel it isn't going to happen. Now if you tow heavy stuff a lot then diesel is good.

i guess I just haven't really seen all these problematic pickups. (well, except maybe pre-Duramax Chevies... Those had some serious issues! lol)
And diesels are extremely popular in my part of the world for work pickups...
Dunno.

StatHaldol · #27 09/09/08, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL.Boy

My dad had a 88 s-10 4cyl 5 speed that got 25-30 mpg he put 177,000 miles on it changed the plugs 1 time and changed the oil maybe 5 times. He does nothing to his GM trucks and always puts over 150,000 on them.

I'm hoping to get 200,000 miles out of mine. Do you remember the old Chevy LUV's? I used to work with an oil field service company that had 6 of them. Each of them got 150,000 miles. They were REALLY abused. Oil hardly ever got changed; one was driven with no water until the engine seized. Once it cooled down and water was added, it was back in operation. One got driven into the Pearl River (that's another story); we pulled it out, opened the hood and doors and let it sit a couple of days and it was good as new. It ran really rough for a couple hundred miles but then was good as new.

FL.Boy · #28 09/09/08, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StatHaldol

I'm hoping to get 200,000 miles out of mine. Do you remember the old Chevy LUV's? I used to work with an oil field service company that had 6 of them. Each of them got 150,000 miles. They were REALLY abused. Oil hardly ever got changed; one was driven with no water until the engine seized. Once it cooled down and water was added, it was back in operation. One got driven into the Pearl River (that's another story); we pulled it out, opened the hood and doors and let it sit a couple of days and it was good as new. It ran really rough for a couple hundred miles but then was good as new.

Yes there good little trucks my dad's s-10 started running rough he just didn't want to mess with it and got a blazer and put 194,000 on it with little to no maintenance.

texican · #29 09/09/08, 09:59 PM

Well, phooey!

65 is my break point...

On diesel vs. gas... I expect to get several hundred thousand more miles out of my diesel truck. Most gas hogs can't handle that mileage.

And, I can, if necessary, use home grown fuels for my diesel... impossible with a gasser.

I think the emissions and safety concerns are bull hockey. Ban all 2cycle engines, and ALL lawnmowers. AND, ban all motorcycles... The worst designed car on the planet has to be safer than the safest motorcycle...

Quint · #30 09/10/08, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillsidedigger

The Ford Fiesta of about 15 years ago got close to 50 mpg with a gasoline engine.

Yeah but it was a ford fiesta. I've driven go-karts with more acceleration. That and the go-kart was more comfortable and safer on the freeway. I'd rather merge onto the interstate with a go-kart that's for sure.

It may have got good mileage but that was the only good thing about them. The ford fiesta was everything a bad car is. It personified bad.

Gary in ohio · #31 09/10/08, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninny

Probably can't get it to pass E.P.A. emissions tests or safety requirements.

.

I am sure it can meet US emissions, UK standards are higher than the US. Safety is about the same.

toomb68 · #32 09/10/08, 04:25 AM

i had a ford festiva....paid $6300 for it brand new. drove it for 10 years...put 135000 miles in that car. got 40+ mpg. i could fold the rear seat down and haul ---- near anything in the back. would have bought another one, but they quit making them.........

FL.Boy · #33 09/10/08, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texican

Well, phooey!

65 is my break point...

On diesel vs. gas... I expect to get several hundred thousand more miles out of my diesel truck. Most gas hogs can't handle that mileage.

And, I can, if necessary, use home grown fuels for my diesel... impossible with a gasser.

I think the emissions and safety concerns are bull hockey. Ban all 2cycle engines, and ALL lawnmowers. AND, ban all motorcycles... The worst designed car on the planet has to be safer than the safest motorcycle...

They are working on the 2 -cycle i believe after 2010 they will not be made any more.

HermitJohn · #34 09/10/08, 06:57 AM

Some people are comparing apples to qumquats. Ford Ranger with 4cyl 5spd driving what I consider hiway speeds (55-60) will get at least 25mpg and newer ones probably up towards 30 on hiway. Overall in mixed driving dont think any little gasoline pickup will get you more than 25mpg. If you need to drive 90mph nope, going to get crap mileage. But if you are driving that kind of speeds, economy is least of your worries. Small 4wds get crap mileage for their size, for whatever reason they just do. Believe me I know. My '84 4wd Ranger got 13 to 15mpg with 5spd and 2.8V6. I had an old '70s era Wagoneer quadratrac with auto tranny and 360 carburetor V8 that did that good and lot more pleasant to drive. My '71 Bronco with 200 straight six and 3 on the tree got 21mpg on hiway. Even fuel injected and computer controlled smallish 4wd with overdrive still only get 21 to 22 mpg hiway. Have to go micro mini 4wd like Tracker/Sidekick or diesel to beat that. I dont know why. I have a feeling that old Bronco I had would have got 25mpg if it had an overdrive. Technology progress, yea, right......

Also comparing a one ton diesel to a mini pickup? How about comparing price of those vehicles. Little 2wd pickup between 10k to 15k and the big diesel more like $40k? And nobody buys a mini pickup to pull a big trailer or carry several ton load. Neither does somebody buy a $40k one ton as just a grocery getter for occasionally moving piece of furniture or something. As to diesels being more efficient, yep, but the diesel option in a pickup costs lot money upfront. How many miles is it going to take to make up the cost difference. Dont forget diesel fuel has a cost penalty also unless you grow and burn your own vegetable oil.

As to diesels lasting hundreds of thousands of miles, what non-commercial chassis lasts that long without huge amount maintenence and rebuilding stuff. Commercial diesel injection pumps can last million miles, but the consumer duty stuff has cheapo pumps that go maybe 150k before rebuild.

VW pickup was a Rabbit with a box grafted on. All body parts and engine parts from box forward were same as the Rabbit car. Unit body, same low ground clearance. No it wasnt like old El Camino/Ranchero where they just chopped top and put floor over car body pan to imitate pickup, but its hardly a full frame traditional pickup either.

FL.Boy · #35 09/10/08, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HermitJohn

Some people are comparing apples to qumquats. Ford Ranger with 4cyl 5spd driving what I consider hiway speeds (55-60) will get at least 25mpg and newer ones probably up towards 30 on hiway. Overall in mixed driving dont think any little gasoline pickup will get you more than 25mpg. If you need to drive 90mph nope, going to get crap mileage. But if you are driving that kind of speeds, economy is least of your worries. Small 4wds get crap mileage for their size, for whatever reason they just do. Believe me I know. My '84 4wd Ranger got 13 to 15mpg with 5spd and 2.8V6. I had an old '70s era Wagoneer quadratrac with auto tranny and 360 carburetor V8 that did that good and lot more pleasant to drive. My '71 Bronco with 200 straight six and 3 on the tree got 21mpg on hiway. Even fuel injected and computer controlled smallish 4wd with overdrive still only get 21 to 22 mpg hiway. Have to go micro mini 4wd like Tracker/Sidekick or diesel to beat that. I dont know why. I have a feeling that old Bronco I had would have got 25mpg if it had an overdrive. Technology progress, yea, right......

Also comparing a one ton diesel to a mini pickup? How about comparing price of those vehicles. Little 2wd pickup between 10k to 15k and the big diesel more like $40k? And nobody buys a mini pickup to pull a big trailer or carry several ton load. Neither does somebody buy a $40k one ton as just a grocery getter for occasionally moving piece of furniture or something. As to diesels being more efficient, yep, but the diesel option in a pickup costs lot money upfront. How many miles is it going to take to make up the cost difference. Dont forget diesel fuel has a cost penalty also unless you grow and burn your own vegetable oil.

As to diesels lasting hundreds of thousands of miles, what non-commercial chassis lasts that long without huge amount maintenence and rebuilding stuff. Commercial diesel injection pumps can last million miles, but the consumer duty stuff has cheapo pumps that go maybe 150k before rebuild.

VW pickup was a Rabbit with a box grafted on. All body parts and engine parts from box forward were same as the Rabbit car. Unit body, same low ground clearance. No it wasnt like old El Camino/Ranchero where they just chopped top and put floor over car body pan to imitate pickup, but its hardly a full frame traditional pickup either.

You are right, but people are still driving to fast and that will kill mpg and yes people are still buying big trucks and using them as just drivers. When is the last time you bought a new truck? I bought a new one in 2005 and small trucks where $17,000 to $20,000 and a 1 ton dually gas was $49,000 add $5,000 more for diesel.

ErinP · #36 09/10/08, 09:41 AM

Frankly, I think it's very foolish to buy a brand new diesel pickup, straight off the lot... There's far better ways to waste your money than on depreciation of a vehicle.

Quote:

Also comparing a one ton diesel to a mini pickup? How about comparing price of those vehicles. Little 2wd pickup between 10k to 15k and the big diesel more like $40k?

See above about buying a brand new pickup. We got ours at five years old (five years ago) for 10K. And like most, it's still running strong. Use depreciation to your advantage, guys.
And I brought it into the conversation because most mini pickups do not get the kind of mileage they should! Do some searches at fueleconomy.gov for EPA ratings. iIt's disappointing. Overall, they seem to have dropped over the years, not improved... I drove a '00 4dr Tracker for a number of years (4cyl, not 6). 24mpg when I was lucky.
My point was that if you're going to be driving a pickup that only gets 20mpg, you might as well drive one that's going to be able to haul something! Besides, it'll live longer...

I would love to see a little pickup with a diesel engine again, but I think we're going to have to wait a while.

Ken Scharabok · #37 09/10/08, 09:45 AM

"VW pickup was a Rabbit with a box grafted on."

Rode in one a couple of months ago powered by probably 20/80 diesel/WVO. I sure didn't notice any problem with acceleration. A bit rough of a ride, but somewhat to be expected.

fordy · #38 09/10/08, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

Frankly, I think it's very foolish to buy a brand new diesel pickup, straight off the lot... There's far better ways to waste your money than on depreciation of a vehicle.

See above about buying a brand new pickup. We got ours at five years old (five years ago) for 10K. And like most, it's still running strong. Use depreciation to your advantage, guys.
And I brought it into the conversation because most mini pickups do not get the kind of mileage they should! Do some searches at fueleconomy.gov for EPA ratings. iIt's disappointing. Overall, they seem to have dropped over the years, not improved... I drove a '00 4dr Tracker for a number of years (4cyl, not 6). 24mpg when I was lucky.
My point was that if you're going to be driving a pickup that only gets 20mpg, you might as well drive one that's going to be able to haul something! Besides, it'll live longer...

I would love to see a little pickup with a diesel engine again, but I think we're going to have to wait a while.

...............This is very good advise ! For instance , .....the new '08 Ford's with the 6.4 diesel have SO MUCH plumbing and wiring stuffed under their hood , that the Dships , literally , have too remove the cab to gain access to the engine compartment . I've been told that a Good mechanic can get it off in 30 minutes and it gets longer from there . The flat rate time assigned too that task is like 4.5 hours by Ford . Really , I don't know how anyone that owns one of these trucks will BEable to afford repairs after the warranty has run out ! Just my guess but too purchase a new , replacement engine , will probably run around $25,000 . , fordy

ErinP · #39 09/10/08, 10:26 AM

yeah, i'm pretty glad that the 7.3 Fords were both popular as well as rock solid.
We'll be able to get parts and even engines&trannies for many years yet to come. (We have yet to have problems getting anything for our '74 F250 so I'm betting it'll be similar for the earlier model PowerStrokes)

BTW, I just caught this:

Quote:

As to diesels lasting hundreds of thousands of miles, what non-commercial chassis lasts that long without huge amount maintenence and rebuilding stuff.

Lots of them, it would seem. As mentioned, diesel pickups (usually Fords) are very popular in ranch country. I've had a lot of friends and neighbors who've had them. The older 7.3s are nearly bullet proof, at least until they're demoted to pasture pickup. It's funny what bouncing through a pasture with a load of salt/mineral/windmill fixin's, etc, can do to your suspension. lol

Considering that they're still in demand, despite age/miles and fuel prices, they must not be as problematic as some of you guys think.

sbin · #40 09/10/08, 11:14 AM

Recently sold a 85 F250 gas 4x4 that I used for 15 years for $1000 and bought a 93 F350 xlt diesel 4x4 for $1500.The 85 ran great and was well maintained but the cab was starting to go.The 93 is in beautiful condition and loaded but had a broken 5 speed transmission.Replaced the tranny with a used one for $300,new glow plugs $70 and injectors/return lines $200.So for about $1000 out of pocket we wound up with a real nice new to us truck.Those old 7.3 idi diesel motors are easy to work on and parts are cheap.