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08/07/08, 01:52 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Central New York
Posts: 403
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and finally BioLine has this GREAT article:
http://www.bioline.org.br/request?au97017
It's interesting that ancients knew of it:
Quote:
The phenomena of exploding haystacks has been with mankind for as long as he has been making hay. Pliny, the Roman Philosopher wrote in 60BC "When the grass is cut it should be turned towards the sun and must never be stacked until it is quite dry. If this last precaution is not carefully taken a kind of vapour will be seen arising from the rick in the morning, and as soon as the sun is up it will ignite to a certainty, and so be consumed."
(from the BioLine article).
Don't understand this one when all the other articles say it takes 3 or 4 weeks to happen. Pliny is saying overnight? He sounds like a poet.
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08/07/08, 02:03 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Central New York
Posts: 403
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These firefighters take it as a truth:
http://www.whsv.com/news/headlines/25742579.html
"A good way to check whether you're hay is getting too hot is to insert a long thermometer into the bale. Any measurement higher than 125 degrees Fahrenheit should be checked out by firefighter". This is from the above article. I don't think I would get much of a response from 911 if I called to say my hay mow is at 125 degrees Fahrenheit and could the fire department come over. No fire. Would they come over and stand by just in case? I don't think so. If they did, they probably would hose the whole barn down, hay and all, then I will need all the hay out. A real fire is 500 degrees and higher. My little ole compost is probably at least 125 degrees all the time.
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08/07/08, 02:13 PM
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AFKA ZealYouthGuy
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NW Pa./NY Border.
Posts: 11,453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiffin
Scientifically speaking...
Scientific American has this article dated from 1928: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...4/322-a?ck=nck At which time they didn't understand the process but were beginning study... and OBSERVED the fire starting.
This isn't scientific when they ended the article with: The urgent need for extensive research upon the problem of the "spontaneous" heating of farm products was emphasized by the lack of scientific knowledge with which to meet the situation. |
You're right, SA is definitely not scientific. Looks like somebody needs to go review the scientific method (hint: observation & recording of data) That's how it starts. The point of the article (which you intentionally seem to ignore) is that they viewed one of the stacks catching on fire and they measured heat in other over 70C.
Do you always have such a hard time admitting when you are wrong?
I'll address your lighthearted and silly(hopefully) retort with a quote from your next post separately.
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08/07/08, 02:18 PM
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AFKA ZealYouthGuy
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NW Pa./NY Border.
Posts: 11,453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiffin
and finally BioLine has this GREAT article:
http://www.bioline.org.br/request?au97017
It's interesting that ancients knew of it:
Quote:
The phenomena of exploding haystacks has been with mankind for as long as he has been making hay. Pliny, the Roman Philosopher wrote in 60BC "When the grass is cut it should be turned towards the sun and must never be stacked until it is quite dry. If this last precaution is not carefully taken a kind of vapour will be seen arising from the rick in the morning, and as soon as the sun is up it will ignite to a certainty, and so be consumed."
(from the BioLine article).
Don't understand this one when all the other articles say it takes 3 or 4 weeks to happen. Pliny is saying overnight? He sounds like a poet. |
Perhaps you should read a bit...
Quote:
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Microbial activities are generally slow in nature. Fermentations for example take days or weeks, mould growth on the bathroom wall can take months. There is however one exception; the case of the exploding haystacks. From time to time on hot summer days haystacks will explode into flames without warning. What is intriguing is that there is no apparent human intervention in starting the fire, nor is there any source of ignition involved, and such explosions of hay are difficult to reproduce in the laboratory. The danger to farmers is substantial. Not only is the hay and hayshed lost in the fire, but workers can be caught in a potentially lethal trap. Sometimes such explosions occur when farmers are dispersing the overheated hay to avoid the approaching explosion. Even if a fire does not result, or is small in extent, the economic loss can be substantial as cows will often not eat charred or smoky hay. The culprit is microbial activity which, in the presence of moisture, heats the hay to autoignition temperatures. This is the simple explanation. However, the details are much more complex.
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Furthermore from the article (which I HOPE you didn't read, because that would be the only acceptable excuse, other than you purposely ignored it)...
Quote:
The mechanism of spontaneous combustion of haystacks is now well understood thanks to a series of studies by Chemistry Division of DSIR (now Industrial Research Ltd) from the 1960s to the 1980s (Rothbaum, 1963a,b; Walker, 1966, Walker and Harrison, 1983). This research explains why silage that gets as hot as some haystacks never explodes, and why the phenomena is so difficult to duplicate in the laboratory. The following discussion is taken from this work.
Table 1: The number of fires caused by spontaneous combustion in New Zealand. Data from the FIRS incident database of the New Zealand Fire Service Whakaratonga Iwi.
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Year Total Fires Caused by Haystack Fires Caused by
Spontaneous Combustion Spontaneous Combustion
in New Zealand in New Zealand
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1,991 215 2
1,992 238 1
1,993 190 1
1,994 183 1
1,995 162 0
Average 198 1
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Spontaneous combustion of hay is simply the reaction of large surface areas of hay with oxygen. This reaction becomes spontaneous/explosive if the temperature is above about 76 C. This temperature is initially attained from microbial metabolism and then later increases because the heat from the chemical reaction of hay with oxygen does not dissipate fast enough.
A hay explosion occurs as a result of the following situation. Hay is stored at a relative humidity above 75% (all relative humidity figures in this article refer to the relative humidity inside the stack, not the relative humidity of the air outside the haystack). This initiates microbial action. This microbial action produces heat which raises the temperature of the stack to 76 C. If the relative humidity in the middle of the stack is below 95% then the microorganisms become inactive and the temperature of the stack drops. If the relative humidity in the middle of the stack is above 97% then the resultant heat of vaporisation of the water dissipates the heat rapidly and the temperature of the stack drops. This explains why very wet silage does not explode. However if the narrow window of 95%-97% relative humidity is obtained then the microorganisms continue to produce heat, which cannot escape, which raises the temperature. This temperature rise accelerates the chemical oxidation of the hay releasing more heat. An ever increasing rate of temperature rise is obtained, i.e. bang - one haystack fire. It is indeed an unfortunate fact that the microbial tolerance of temperature and the start of the chemical oxidation of hay overlap at around 76 C when the relative humidity is 95%-97%. A small window of opportunity (see figure 1) but one which never-the-less can occur.
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So the SCIENTIFIC world is convinced, has studied it... even been able to explain it.
I mean, you certainly can have an opinion of it that differs, but I really think your grasping at straws with your posts.
But hey, it's fun... so let's keep it up.
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08/07/08, 02:20 PM
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AFKA ZealYouthGuy
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NW Pa./NY Border.
Posts: 11,453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiffin
These firefighters take it as a truth:
http://www.whsv.com/news/headlines/25742579.html
"A good way to check whether you're hay is getting too hot is to insert a long thermometer into the bale. Any measurement higher than 125 degrees Fahrenheit should be checked out by firefighter". This is from the above article. I don't think I would get much of a response from 911 if I called to say my hay mow is at 125 degrees Fahrenheit and could the fire department come over. No fire. Would they come over and stand by just in case? I don't think so. If they did, they probably would hose the whole barn down, hay and all, then I will need all the hay out. A real fire is 500 degrees and higher. My little ole compost is probably at least 125 degrees all the time. |
LOL, keep grasping...
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08/07/08, 04:50 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Washington, USA
Posts: 2,900
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Gee, looks like what this thread needed was a troll alarm.
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08/07/08, 04:57 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Washington, USA
Posts: 2,900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artificer
I forgot to put the switch info in the post, which is what I had origanly intended... 
Do you want to measure at a bunch of locations? If so, then cost is the major concern. Take a look at snap action disk thermostats. Mouser has them for $4 each.
Pick up a car horn, wire all of the sensors in parrallel, then the car horn, add a battery and a trickle charger and you're set.
I would put the sensors in either a ziplock bag, match box, or a small plastic project box to keep the sensor functing properly. They can't be squezzed, or they will operate at the wrong temp.
Pick one that closes at the proper temp. Not sure what that would be. 150deg F?
Michael |
So these "snap action disk thermostats" are mechanical switches that trip like a breaker at a certain temperature but instead of interrupting the 12VDC it completes the circuit and activates the car horn?
Hmmm... that might work for my application. I was hoping for something that would be easier to install in a stack - taped to the end of a long metal rod or something that I could stab down into the pile and relocate if necessary. Seems like the disk thermostats I'd have to incorporate into the pile as I stacked it and couldn't relocate it without excavating.
Still searching and researching...
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08/07/08, 04:58 PM
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plains of Colorado
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: plains of Colorado
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Good One
Send it to mythbusters...I have seen a few and they are good!
Mile away...big hay fire at the dairy...burned for two weeks...too smoky for laundry outside!
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08/07/08, 05:00 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Washington, USA
Posts: 2,900
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Hay fires are all too real, and well-explained. Might as well ask the Mythbusters to debunk gravity while you're at it.
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08/08/08, 05:55 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Central New York
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Seedspreader: I did read that NZ article, very interesting. One thing I noticed, fortunately is that there are only on average one hay fire a year during that particular study from 1991 to 1995. (198 on average for spontaneous fires) I'm surprised at one of the posts here that says there is at least one hay fire a month. Wow, something is wrong. I have asked around our area and the last one reported was some 15 years ago. I have only heard of one barn burning down in the 3 years we have been here and that was reported as electrical even though it did have hay in it. Anyway, folks it's been a fun discussion and I apologize to the original poster regarding heat probes. I still have a hard time believing, but if it does exist, it sounds like according to the posted science that it is a rare phenomena that takes a very precise situation to have it occur. And, since the scientist can't duplicate it in a lab then I guess MythBusters won't either.
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08/08/08, 10:50 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southside Virginia
Posts: 687
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If you never bale your hay wet, you'll never need a thermometer! Around here barn fires are a fact, but you'll never meet a farmer who burned a barn twice! Wet hay = heat = fire.....
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08/08/08, 02:02 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southwest Wisconsin
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and you do not need any fancy probes to tell if it is to wet. Once its in the barn it to late anyways
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08/08/08, 07:48 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Carthage, Texas
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If you do get a heat sensor installed, and it informs you there is trouble, what are you going to to do with the information?
(I really don't want to sound flippant...) Are you wanting to see the fire? or are you going to install some sort of sprinkler system. If you're dealing with round bales, putting out a fire in them is extremely difficult... I've never seen it happen. Once they start burning good, you can try and save the unburned hay.
Like others have mentioned, simply do not bale hay when there's moisture present.
The onliest folks I ever heard of baling hay (here in the eastern US) at the crack of dawn, are prisoners on state penitentiary farms. I know a local boy who couldn't resist drinkin and drivin, and got a freeish vacation courtesy of the state. They had him out one morning baling hay... he asked the foreman couldn't they wait till the hay dried... Nope... had to be baled now... it was punishment for some infractions... they had to go into the round baler every half hour and clean off the balled up wet grass (round balers don't like wet grass)... and anyone that's every had to do it probably doesn't want to do it more than once.
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08/08/08, 09:06 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Washington, USA
Posts: 2,900
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I don't yet make my own hay. I don't have my own hay field or my own baling equipment. I do have a horsedrawn mower that I'm fixing and a tedder that's ready to go. The tractor and baler are a ways down the road yet. One day I do hope to be able to cut and bale my own. Until then, I buy from other guys.
I bought some hay that I feel was baled too quick. Should have been left out for another day and tedded once more. It has some clover in it that is on the edge of being too wet. I can't really tell if it's going to be okay or if it's going to mold and heat up. The guy who baled it said it would be fine, but I don't want to trust my barn to some other guy. I salted the bales and I'm keeping an eye on them by putting pieces of pipe and grounding rods down into the pile, withdrawing them and checking for warmth a few times a day. So far no heat at all, but it would be nice to have a little more peace of mind.
If the heat setting on the monitoring device could be set at any temperature, I'd set it to 90 degrees to tell me if anything was going on in there at all. So far it isn't. If the stack started to heat, I'd drag all the hay outside of the barn. Dragging the hay out at ninety degrees shouldn't be dangerous. If you wait till it gets HOT, then it's a problem and you have to call the fire department out to help you dismantle your ready-to-ignite stack, which they usually do by flooding the whole thing. If you're lucky, they bring out thermal imaging equipment, find the hot spot and send the water right down into it.
I don't have the spare money to throw out hay if it isn't bad. Surely you can understand that. At this point, it looks like it would cost the same to buy some kind of prefab heat sensor and monitoring unit as it would to write off this load of hay. A heat sensing setup would be a one-time expense.
And there *should* be moisture present in the hay. You don't want the hay to be bone-dry. You lose a lot of the delicate leaf that way. You want it to have enough moisture to not shatter all the leaves when you bale it, but not so much moisture that it molds after you bale it. Making good hay is an art.
Last edited by jennigrey; 08/08/08 at 09:08 PM.
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08/08/08, 09:55 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Central WI
Posts: 5,399
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You could get by with some thermostats similar to this http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2YU90 or this http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2E399
Biggest problem would be finding something that works in the temp range you would want. A trip to the local heating/ac shop might turn up something.
Wouldn't take much to build a box with all the stuff in it and a light or bell on top and the sensor bulbs hanging out for placement in your stack.
__________________
Deja Moo; The feeling I've heard this bull before.
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08/08/08, 10:13 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 11,946
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jennigrey, if you check out the link from our ag department and it offers some good information on heating hay, what temps, critical period of time and when you should be past the point of worry and even a bit on how the hay may smell.
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq9923
and another little bit of information on spontaneous combustion
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...htm#hayheating
I'm sorry the first one is going to have to be a copy & paste deal but worth it if you have concerns.
Last edited by wr; 08/08/08 at 10:17 PM.
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08/09/08, 08:40 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texican
Like others have mentioned, simply do not bale hay when there's moisture present.
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This is a GREAT example of regional differences. This spring/summer, it was very difficult for farmers to make good hay. Forcast for a couple of good days of weather, and then it rains the second day, then the big storm comes a day or two later.
In the midwest its most likely a case of do you chance good hay thats wetter than it should be, or hope the rain doesn't turn your field of downed hay into bedding.
The alarm would be good to have in the case you were forced to put up wet hay. The temperature setting would have to be low enough so you could separate the hay to prevent the fire. The best option for wet hay is to lattice stack it, if you have the space. Once it cures/drys, then you stack it in it permanent location. This only works with small rectangular bales, however.
Michael
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08/09/08, 12:53 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 11,946
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artificer, I don't know if that is a regional thing or just trying to salvage a difficult year but it is only so effective because if the hay is baled too wet, it stands a very good chance of molding.
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08/10/08, 03:03 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Carthage, Texas
Posts: 12,261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennigrey
I don't yet make my own hay. I don't have my own hay field or my own baling equipment. I do have a horsedrawn mower that I'm fixing and a tedder that's ready to go. The tractor and baler are a ways down the road yet. One day I do hope to be able to cut and bale my own. Until then, I buy from other guys.
I bought some hay that I feel was baled too quick. Should have been left out for another day and tedded once more. It has some clover in it that is on the edge of being too wet. I can't really tell if it's going to be okay or if it's going to mold and heat up. The guy who baled it said it would be fine, but I don't want to trust my barn to some other guy. I salted the bales and I'm keeping an eye on them by putting pieces of pipe and grounding rods down into the pile, withdrawing them and checking for warmth a few times a day. So far no heat at all, but it would be nice to have a little more peace of mind.
If the heat setting on the monitoring device could be set at any temperature, I'd set it to 90 degrees to tell me if anything was going on in there at all. So far it isn't. If the stack started to heat, I'd drag all the hay outside of the barn. Dragging the hay out at ninety degrees shouldn't be dangerous. If you wait till it gets HOT, then it's a problem and you have to call the fire department out to help you dismantle your ready-to-ignite stack, which they usually do by flooding the whole thing. If you're lucky, they bring out thermal imaging equipment, find the hot spot and send the water right down into it.
I don't have the spare money to throw out hay if it isn't bad. Surely you can understand that. At this point, it looks like it would cost the same to buy some kind of prefab heat sensor and monitoring unit as it would to write off this load of hay. A heat sensing setup would be a one-time expense.
And there *should* be moisture present in the hay. You don't want the hay to be bone-dry. You lose a lot of the delicate leaf that way. You want it to have enough moisture to not shatter all the leaves when you bale it, but not so much moisture that it molds after you bale it. Making good hay is an art.
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If I thought it was too wet, when baled, I'd never put it in my barn in the first place. If it's round bales, I'd 'eat' the ~10% loss from staying in the elements, and place the bales initially in the worst part of my pasture (where theres no grass present), or put them where it's safe from critters, and move all of the wasted hay to bald spots in the pasture, or put in the garden. Square bales??? Tarp it too, or make a temp structure? Like you I'd hate to lose a barn...
Salting hay? Please explain? You talking about sodium chloride? I have a feeling, from local experience, that putting salt on anything would draw moisture in to the area. If it's there already, how are you going to get the salt and water out.... I've never heard of salting hay before...
Of course, for the life of me, I cannot understand why people put salt on watermelon... and not black pepper on their ice cream... both seem illogical, so why not...
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08/11/08, 12:13 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Washington, USA
Posts: 2,900
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These are small square bales - 60lb apiece or so.
In my climate, putting it outside and tarping it would *ensure* that the hay would mold. As it is, I only fear that the hay is wet enough to grow mold inside. It's on the cusp, which is why I think it should have been cured another day, to make *certain* that it was dry enough to have been baled.
As it was told to me, putting rock salt between the layers of stacked bales will hopefully draw moisture out of the bale and lock it in the salt. And mold won't grow in salt water.
Putting salt on exposed surfaces of bales probably wouldn't draw any moisture out of the bale. The salt would become saturated with moisture from the atmosphere rather than drawing moisture out of the bale. But it would inhibit the growth of mold on the surface of the bale, if that was a concern. Wouldn't do anything for the inside of the bale.
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