How serious is tresspassing?

Sigh, as far as the pet thing, it varies by location... Your locality is just that... LOCAL and not universal.

Many people have challenged (and will continue) the definition of a "pet" because of all the various things people keep as pets.

In fact in a more urban/suburban area... the more weird animals seem to be considered pets now-a-days. It's usually small farm towns that try to differentiate dogs/cats/rabbits/turtles/snakes/etc. as being "normal pets" vs. miniature goats, etc.

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I live in ag country not any towns. I also don't run anything. I do follow the laws though.

Also the OP obviously is in a township that has livestock laws no matter what one chooses to call their livestock.

Just simple facts of life.

So your town allows some livestock, great. The OP's doesnt.

And if someone wants to fight their livestock ordinances, great, but trying to make livestock a legally defined pet isn't happening. Your goats are not legally pets because you can have them and they have tags and are registered and whatever. They are allowed livestock, nothing more by law.

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My site.

this just makes me glad i live in the country
no counselman here going tell me anything and i hope it stays that way

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Some Times You Feel Like Nut
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Guerrilla gardening, hiking or just taking off days and live in the woods, tresspassing can be fun.

You just got to know what to avoid, like stay away from buildings and avoid hunting seasons and holidays. You leave the land as you found it, always go by foot or bicycle. Slip off into the wilderness, just as our Natives did in hundred of years in the past.

It's no big deal, just show respect and quietness.

Kristie,

Along the line of obtaining a variance, get a copy (if you didn't already) of your zoning code and read it thoroughly. The more prepared you are, the better chance you have of a) them taking you seriously and not as someone who just wants to have something unusual, and b) bringing them around to your way of thinking.

When you read the code, try to figure out every possible objection they could legally have and gather sound information to convince them otherwise. For instance, our zoning code requires notification of all adjacant property owners as to the nature of the variance so they have a chance to object. Since your neighbors haven't turned you in already, chances are they really don't care. If your zoing code requires something similar, beat them to the punch and get your surrounding neighbors to sign something that you can bring to the zoning hearing.

Usually a big issue is proving hardship and your son's medical condition would stand a good chance of doing that. But also document where you would have to travel to purhcase a substitute, what the cost would be, etc. Prove just how much of a hardship it will become.

If/when you do get your zoning code, post anything here that you think might be problematic and we can try to brainstorm to help you.

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Anne
Give me a sweet home set among the trees,
With friends whose words are ever kind and true.
-Phoebe Carey-

LONE PINE FARM
Barnesville, PA
Boer goats, Angora goats, Eclectic mix of poultry

I once knew a lady whos neighbor had so many wind chimes in her yard you could barly hear yourself speak on certain breezy days. Just saying in case you find yourself all of a sudden likeng lots of noisy windchimes.

Don't apply for a variance now...wait till you get busted. I wouldn't worry about the tresspassing.

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"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow the fields of those who don't."-Thomas Jefferson

I am really surprised at how many of the posters to this thread condone illegal activity.

Id be calling it a service animal.....like a seeing eye dog. I don't know that it would work but Id try.
Some thing you may have missed is you might already have your variance.
It sounds like the sorta town where lots of things happen unofficially, so if the neighbors don't complain there you are.
Like someone else said there might not be a mechanisum to allow your variance so everyone has chose to ignore it. DON'T POKE THEM IN THE EYE WITH IT!

At one time, though, a black riding on the front of a bus was illegal. At one time, interracial marriage was illegal.

If you are willing to face the consequences for the "crime" and it's not forbidden by God, and you feel the law to be unjust, I would call it civil disobedience.

Are you telling us you have never willingly broken the speed limit?

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Well said.

As far as the OP... is there any way you could sell your place and find something a bit out of town (and away from those laws?)

Kaza

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if you want pm me the number to the city, and I will call and see if I can get any answers. I can say that I am going to move into that area and what can I do. Make sure you give me all the important info...like the exact area that you are in, or areas close. I can see if there is a legal way around this. That way you are not drawing attention to it.

I am allergic to cows milk too...and my health has had a huge improvement with the goats milk. and I dont' just drink milk, I use to to cook with...also when I was a kid, a neighbor of mine got a wavier to have the goat in her back yard for the milk. She was also allergic. So we bought some from her. There has to be a way. I can see what I can find out for you.
Heather

SS, there is another side to the coin.

The Lord has asked us to obey the rulers in power, for He has put them there. Until their law conflicts with the law of the Lord, we are to obey. Paul's words were to slaves who were being mistreated by their masters... THEY were to OBEY. If they were to obey, should we not also when in situations far less severe?

Windy, I am a bit shocked as well.

R

P.S. SS, on your speed limit question: http://soc.orrick.us/?p=52

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When faced with issues in life, where do you look for the problem; out the window, or in the mirror?

How can you own land that was stolen from the natives? You don't even OWN your land, the Government stole it from the indians, and is leasing it to YOU, as long as you pay your taxes!

It is stolen land, with nothing but Government, and land Realtors making gain off of you. The only land you own(or should I say, stolen land) is what you have built upon with materials you purchased. The hundreds of acres of woods and farmland is not yours, it belongs to the natives... your just using it for gain and have no RIGHT to tell others to keep out!

Yeah, I have heard Romans 13 hashed around till it was chip-chopped stir fry.

There are a multitude of discussion that we could have including the fact that WE are the government in the United States and that these laws are prohibitum malum. Also, there is the simple truth that those who believe that every law that comes down from the "powers that be" are from God, would also have been Tories during the American Revolution.

The line between taking God-given rights and the "law" and relating it to Romans 13 is an interesting one.

So, placed in the context of 1860 (and before) all those who helped escaped slaves cross the river northward and worked the underground railroad were sinning.

By the way, in your blog entry, the sin (alleged) that your friend would have been breaking (in your reasoning) is the sin of disobedience. Disobedience was happening regardless of whether your friend was "convinced" or not... and yet you say:

Our country is based on rights given by God, that include, Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. ie. we believe these are God-given rights that we have.

Someone "breaking" a law and facing the consequences of such law, as to challenge the law are within their God-given rights in America.

Where do you stand on slavery? Is it legal where it's practiced today? Is it moral? As you said, the Bible says that slaves should obey their masters. Is the context changed due to the day, or is our understanding of the slave relationship changed?

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Living in a city restricts your freedoms drastically.

My condolonces. I hope someday you'll be allowed to have a nice place out in the country.

Milk is not necessary for humans to live. (Sorta necessary for infants, I'll grant you that) It's real nice... I like it... we have a dozen or so milk goats (milked this morning). But I'm 15 miles out in the country, with no neighbors to worry about.

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial, right? Interesting points.. thread drift... but relevant.

First let me say that I do NOT believe that legal = right and illegal = wrong. It is certainly the case that when man makes a law against the law of God that we should protest. It is interesting that the Declaration was written by a man who held slaves, and then wrote, ".. all men are created equal". Did we come to a new understanding of the word "men", or did we finally put aside our own selfish interests and stop lying to ourselves about how we were rationalizing slavery?

All men are equal in the eyes of the Lord, and we are to consider ourselves each beneath the other, rather than over. In that way, I would argue that slavery was always wrong in the eyes of the Lord and that civil disobedience was required. If the situation here were that this woman went to the city, petitioned for a variance, was not granted one and could not reasonably move, and she then visibly defied the authorities and quietly milked her own goat, perhaps my position would be different. This isn't "civil disobedience", this is trying to get away with something. Civil disobedience implies a higher calling, the desire to help other be free, not just you and yours.

I fully agree that challenging the legality of a law is part of our privilege here in America.

Do you find that Romans 13 (and parts of 14) are really just too difficult to be applied today? Or, are you just saying that it's been 'done to death'?

R

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Speaking strictly by a simplistic understanding of Romans 13... does it really matter? Slavery wasn't directly condemned by God and Paul told slaves to be good workers, working not as to please the eye of men (men pleasers) but as if they were working to God. So slavery must be ok then, right?

Or is there a deeper meaning to Romans 13 and the law in general?

I sincerely believe that the government is a "terror unto evil works" and when it steps outside of those bounds then it becomes a government that is out of control and as such should be challenged by the members of that government system.

Coincidentally, that's the same thing our forefathers believed and why they felt justified in going to war over taxation without representation (because that had been a central part of their charter's with the King of England).

Slavery, as instituted in the O.T. always had a limit to it. A slave was free to leave their master every seven years unless they willingly chose to stay. Interestingly a slave was actually free to marry, have children, etc. and was not bred or looked upon as livestock, so a direct comparison of slavery in the O.T. to early America is difficult.


I dunno, do you think Rosa Parks was motivated by the injustice to her people? (Hint: read some interviews before you answer, you may be surprised)

Mainly I mean that majority of this audience is not able to spiritually approach or understand the discussion in this context without the discussion jumping to a bunch of "what if's and rabbit trails". It's certainly a worthy discussion, and should be addressed in our churches. But I fear many churches have done their congregation a great disservice by suggesting that "Thus saith the government..." is the same as "Thus saith God... unless he said something DIRECTLY different than the government".

Example: The recent SCOTUS ruling on the Second Amendment... if it were 5-4 the other way... would you relinquish your guns tomorrow? Or more importantly... SHOULD you. Back to the speed limit... if you go 1 MPH over the limit, can the government bust you? Yup... even if it's "not your fault" because your car speedometer is "off"? Yup. So when you go that 1 MPH is it not a sin because you didn't know, or the mechanism didn't work? Well, the government says it doesn't matter if you know the law or not, or whether your speedometer was wrong... the law is the law. So... it's sin... right? Some folks who hold the Romans 13 view of Government = God installed = keeper of our souls might say so. I disagree.

A woman who has an ample amount of land (an acre), a child with a bovine dairy allergy, and a desire to keep a couple of goats on property she owns, who is willing to take the consequences for her actions (whether they be fines, removal of said goats, etc.) falls in to civil disobedience to me.

But I digress.

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You and I agree on virtually every point... right up to the last sentence of application. But it doesn't matter. Looked at outside the bounds of city ordinance, it is CERTAINLY right and good that a person choose to have a dairy goat.

R

P.S. Personally I believe that there has not been ENOUGH resistance to our government and that we've sat passively by while our rights are trampled upon in ever-increasing steps.

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When faced with issues in life, where do you look for the problem; out the window, or in the mirror?

I've read the argument (meant in the nicest possible way ) between SS and WoM very carefully. I agree with both of you. I think she should keep her goats AND campaign to have them declared legal. Is it civil disobedience if no one knows you're disobeying? I'm not sure.

If I were her, I'd enlist the help of like-minded folks (start looking in the farmer's markets) to convince the city council that goats are less trouble than dogs (I really believe this. Dogs are louder and stinkier than goats.) Share what your doing with local newspapers, TV stations, etc. Get public opinion on your side. Turn it into a "green" issue and you have a much better chance of success. Of course, make sure your yard and animals are just gorgeous before you begin

All city-dwelling homesteaders should think about doing this. There's no good reason why someone with half an acre or more shouldn't be allowed to have some livestock. Who knows, you just might be successful.

RedTartan

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