Hay making equipment-compact tractor

Hydro's generally don't hold up well to repeatd shocks like plowing with rocks around, or the plunger slamming on a bailer. I've haybined and bailed with a kicker on hilly ground for years with a Farmall Super H. The big thing, other than weight in a tractor is torque. While an 8N may spec out to more HP than my Farmall, I have gobs and gobs more torque. Also, it depends on how old a tractor you are using. Those older tractors, be it a Farmall, Ford, JD, etc. are built WAY more stoute. The PTO on a newish compact would have twisted out with what I put my Farmall through on a daily basis. There ARE some old bailers that have their own pony motors and that is a viable option. Then all you would need is power to pull, not run the bailer. It seems the old JD bailers with pony motors seem to be most prevailent around my area. I would sugest starting with a good old tractor if you want to try this idea out. My lawnmower has 26 HP, but can't hold a candle to what a 30 yr old mower with 10 HP can doo. Same goes for tractors. A new 30 HP tractor is designed to pull a mower, carry a few bales in the loader, and look pretty in the heated garage. Mike

On that note - My BIL has a Kioti CK-30 (couldn't pay me to own one). He was told by the dealer not to try farming with it and not to try baling. He ended up using a Rotobaler and it does ok for the little he uses it. Most of the newer tractors today thaqt are made in Korea, China, and other places are glorified lawnmowers. Mahindra is an exception, as is Kubota. Both of these are good machines. Manhindras are built really stout.
As far as the 8N goes - they can surprise you. I've seen mine do things my bigger tractors won't do.

Another thing that you might consider is live PTO. While to me, it doesn't make much difference (I grew up without it), some people swear you MUST have it to do ANYTHING.

I think your super H will spec better than an 8N all around.
the 8N ran about 25-26 HP
and the Super H was about 33.

Pony motors on balers are usually a lot bigger than a lawnmower engine. Maybe not in HP but in size and "umph" A big old Wisconsin v-4 is nothing like a 2 cyl Briggs.

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Deja Moo; The feeling I've heard this bull before.

The minimum that I would want for haying would be
1) 40 HP tractor with live pto
2) 7 ft sickle mower
3) 2 basket tedder
4) 256 New Holland rake
5) 273 New Holland baler
I would expect to invest
1) $5000
2) 375
3) 600
4) 1600
5) 1200
for a total of $8775......With this I feel that I could go to the field and expect to bale rather than to the shop to mechanic while the hay goes bad or gets rained on.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I didn't read all the replies.....

An older baler (JD 14T, 24T, or a New Holland 69 through 271) are good older balers _if_ they were maintained & stored in a shed.

For a tractor you need 25 hp, you would like 35hp or more. Much, much more important, is you want a live pto on the tractor!!!!! This allows you to push in the clutch to stop forward motion, but the baler still gets power to keep baling. This allows you to work through heavy bumps in the windrow. Without live pto, you push in the clutch to stop over-feeding the baler, and the baler stops too, instantly plugging up the baler. Not fun.

A problem with compact tractors - they might have 30 hp, but they are built light. Their drive train can only take 30 hp..... A baler uses about 15 hp to keep running - but it stores about 50 hp in that flywheel on it. So, your tractor needs to be able to handle the back-feed & shock a baler puts on it. Many compacts are not built heavy enough to take a baler. You get the tail wagging the dog, and it is not a good thing.


You might hear about older balers with their own engine on them, your tractor just pulls it around the field. Yup, that will work - but they are miserable things to keep running. And the baler is much heavier now. Yuk.

Round balers typically take 50-100 hp. There are some round baler imports that are pretty new that are tiny, would work with a 20 hp compact - but they cost 10 grand or so......

Back over 50 years ago Allis Chalmers made a roto baler - it made small round bales the size of a square baler. Could work with a compact.... The bales were a little odd, the baling was a little slow, and well - how many are left out there in good working shape?

So, making hay with a compact: You want a real big compact tractor, you want to check with the manufaturer if it can take the shock load of a square baler, and you want to have a live (or independent...) pto.

We can get by with less; a lot of hay has been baled with Ford 8N tractors with 28 hp and no live pto. But it is not fun........ It is not something you will be happy doing after your regular job.... Ick.

--->Paul

From my own research on this, I decided to not waste money on haying equipment that depreciates, but rather save all that money, time and labour, and buy bales as required for our 6 month winter.

look at that. Someone understands.

Id buy almost anything other than a modern compact.

A farmall super M is 45 horse,costs around $5000, and is very nimble. An Alice Chalmers WD45 is 45 horse and less than $5000, and also is extremely easy to get in small gardens, and in such places. john deere 720 diesel is 60 horse, and around $4000. Im sure ford has some good tractors with plenty of inexpensive horse power.

Compact tractors are way way way over priced, under powered, and require expensive custom equipment.

THere are lots of good old tractors out there and good smaller equipment

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Ok folks you all seem to have a lot of information. Hows about one of you do a tutorial or Guide for Newby (Dummies) on the Haying process. I am new to the farming life and have little to NO CLUE. Problem being I have animals eat / bed in hay/ straw. To furster complicte the matter I have a generous neighboor was has land and has said I can have the hay that grows at no cost. Thisis a mixed feild and well suited to my needs. The costs of hay/ straw is not going to go down and I also would like to pine bale as well. Unfortunately the knowledge is what I am lacking in. I know how to and have used many many tractors and large equipment ( Think Military ) This neighbor would also allow me to use his tractor to do the baling. Good neighbors are hard to find and I was blessed with a great neighbor. I currently am planning on hand baling as much as I can but this will be very labor intensive. Last season after the hay was cut I simply raked it up by hand and fed directly to the animals. But much was wasted, which I HATE waste.

So anyone care to do a Haying 101 ? from it's a feild of hay to it's in the barn ready for winter ?

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Reverend George Hoppes

Available to preform Weddings, Blessings and other services in Southern Missouri.
http://ministers.themonastery.org/profile/Hoppes65761

This site might be helpful www.smallfarminnovations.com

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LIVE LONG,LOVE STRONG & DIEHARD

That is pretty neat!

__________________
http://lownfamilymaplesyrup.com/ max@lownfamilymaplesyrup.com
Professional Tool. 1220 Woodmere Ave,Traverse City, MI. 49686. 231-941-8003. http://professionaltool.com/

I just remember back to how Dad and Grandpa did it, and snicker when people say it can't be done.

I've seen a tractor of 28hp run a small baler. my favorite tractor on the farm is my 444 international. its about 45 horse. I love it. its small, nimble, easy to get off n on. power steering is better than my truck. I run a 273 nh kicker baler. people said, "oh it wont run the kicker, take that off". Like I'd listened to that. I can pull the baler with 2 wagons and the kicker would make the hay to the second wagon. Altho I dont do that we just tried it for fun...lol

theres a book I purchased called "small scale haymaking", through country workshop by spencer yost. its a good book, get it before you buy anything. its just the info you are looking for. the book states look for a tractor that generates at least 30- 45 hp on the pto shaft. its all about how to run this older equipmment. and dont forget the older equipment has less safety features. its extremely dangerous. be safe. always shut everything down befor you mess with things.

check out this page, http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/pto.html

this is the baler type I have and the guy I bought it from said this is just how his dad died. he bent down by this shaft and it caught the back of his shirt and shedded him.

also go on ebay and buy the manuals for all your equipment it comes in handy. good luck, hay isnt fun to make a living with and very dangerous.

Already been done.

http://www.sheepscreek.com/rural/haying.html

He also has one on pastures.

--->Paul

Back in your grandad's day, that was about the best available.... You made do with what you had, and you made your living at it, so you made things work.

Today folks want to make hay outside of their regular 40 hour work week...... They want to do it as a hobby (fun!) and so forth.

As you say, it _can_ be done with a 28 hp non-live pto tractor. Millions of bales have been made that way. It's what the farmer had on his farm, so he made do.

If you are starting out hobby farming, buy something better - that will get the job done for you, be safer to operate, and more fun to do.

Should we be advising people on what is barely possible, or on what is useful & practical & safer?

I have a tractor & baler that have been paired together over 40 years. Live pto, 10 speed tractor, only 35 hp but it works _very_ well with the independent pto & hi/lo gear. On a good day this tractor would barely bring $2000. Why buy an N for more money with less capibilities for making hay????

--->Paul

Thanks, guys!
I don't think that I have seen as much good information in one thread for a long time.

Yes, I have a lot of slopes,(hence the 4 wheel drive), the hydro drive allows you to drive at any speed allowing the PTO to stay at what ever speed you set the throttle at.

Comments about weight of the unit were very helpful, as grade and weight does matter a LOT (found out mowing on side hills).

As I don't have any animals of my own just yet, it will allow me to take all this info, get out in the field and do some more lookin' and askin'.

I am seeing a market for custom mowing and baling in small plots as more and more houses end up plopped into the middle of former fields.
The quest continues...........

I didn't say to buy an 8N for baling hay, I aid it CAN bale hay. What I am meaning is that you don't need fancy, high dollar equipment to bale or most anything else. The smaller tractors (like the 8N and the IHC "H") are capable of doing jobs that we are told they can't do.
Sure, the world has changed, but that doesn't mean things done in the past automatically become "un-doable".
My point is - it HAS been done and CONTINUES to be done.

Lots of interesting stuff here.

My uncle bales with a NH baler and a Farmall M on mostly flat ground. He says that sometimes it is easier to make your passes that are the safest for the operator.

Whatever you buy, get the manual that goes along with it. Ebay is loaded with manuals at great prices.

There are some great deals to be had on used balers, and since you are mechanically inclined, you should have no problems working on it yourself, or repairing the knotters.
Just buy the manual, it is worth its weight in gold, and will save you untold hours of work. Most of the manuals show how to retime the knotters, set the drive chains, etc.

I will say this: If you can't get into tight corners with your baler/rake, you could always hand cut it using a sythe or weedeater. I have raked plenty of corners and tight spots when I was a young man bucking bales. That would always be one of the first jobs before baling. The farmer would hand me a large leaf rake, and I would rake the corners and fence rows into the wind rows. I wasn't there for mowing, so I am assuming that he could cut the corners with a sickle bar.

Clove

I have an 8n and I wouldn't even think about trying to bale with it. I have a 7 foot ford sickle bar that is to big for it (might handle a 6 foot, don't know). It works ok with a 5 foot brush hog on it but is a little weak going up hills with it running.

For those who want to know , here is the HP rating for 8n:

Power:
Drawbar (rated): 23.16 hp [17.3 kW]
Drawbar (max): 20.8 hp [15.5 kW]
PTO (max): 25.5 hp [19.0 kW]

As you can see, it is a bit less than some folks have posted here. Personally I would look at 35hp as about the minimum to run a baler. And that would be the bare minimum on flat ground if you were using a kicker and hauling a wagon.

One of the problems with the older equipment that people are suggesting is that it is prone to breaking down just when you need them the most. Many farmers I know have two balers, rakes, haybines or mowers (and even tractors) because they can't afford to be spending time on fixing when they get that stretch of non-rain days to get the hay in.

This is why we are fencing our hay pastures to run highland cattle. I'll buy just enough rounds to get through the worst of winter (and risk having to buy a few more if there is a longer/late stretch of bad weather).

Mike

I use a 49 Farmall M, John Deere #5 mower, Farmhand wheel rake and a IH #27 baler. The tractor is the only item that is really worth anything , but it's all paid for. I have baled up to 1000 bales a year and I haul it all with a 16 foot car trailer.

I have heard of compact tractors having rearend problems due to pulling a baler, they evidently work the rearend too hard and they fail. I don't know wheter all of them are like that. If you look around you can find some good old equipment.

Bob

Hmmmm. Mine handles a 7' bar just fine. My Brush hog is a 5', but I have used a 6' with no problems. Even the Dearborn and Ford mowers designed for 8N's had 7' bars. I HAVE baled with an 8N before (NH 273 baler, PTO version). It was on fairly flat land and no rack. It can be done. It all depends on the lay of the land and what you're baling (this was grass).

On the other note:
We've all been conditioned to believe that we NEED new, fancy, equipment. Take live PTO, for instance. Is it nice to have - YOU BETCHA. Is is a "must have"? NO!

One of the principals of (so called) "homesteading", is to be self reliant, FRUGAL, and productive. IMHO, buying expensive equipment just because you THINK you NEED to have it for something that can be done without it, is counter productive. Just my opinion, not attacking anyone.

A few posts ago someone asked if there are many of the old AC Rotobalers still running. It depends on what part of the country you are in. Here in SE Nebraska, there are several - I have two myself. One just needs 3-4 belts and it is ready to roll. The other needs belts and a pickup chain. While fairly complicated looking, they really aren't that bad. I don't like the little round bales, but the machines do work. My BIL also has two - one working, one for parts. He uses it behind his Kioti glorified lawn mower. I will probaly end up scrapping these two unless I can find someone who wants them.