Talk to me about dogs

You may want to check your insurance policy when it comes to large dog breed ownership.
There was a good post on here not to long ago on that subject.
They had a list of something like 8 breeds that the Insurance companies can drop you over.

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Having a deep emotional conversation with my quilted buddy..........

Raccoon
that is a bald face lie perpetuated by the pit bull lovers that believe
1 they are perfect & can be handled by anyone & everyone
2 the breeds true history is something to be ashamed of & distanced from.

while an occassional dog may have done well as a farm dog, the sole purpose for the pit bulls existance was the box. contrary to BS i have seen on webpages, it was NEVER in the whole of it's existance bred for being a good all around farm dog.

ALL
no breed was ever developed to be a good "all around farm dog"
everybody has a different idea of what that is.
on top of that EVERY breed in existance was developed to do one task exceptionally well. some breeds luckily developed enough versatility to do multiple tasks well (maybe not exceptionally well but well enough to get by at multiple jobs the owner desired).

Dubi
you also have lion & bobs. a pair of pyrs would be a great start & if the other dogs will pitch in as needed you should be fine.

I think that's asking too much of one animal. LGD's should be fenced with the animals they are protecting. Get a "yard dog" to hang out with the people.

Dont confuse the dog by making him pick who he's supposed to be hanging out with

Most TRUE LGD's will roam if not fenced, since it's their nature to patrol the perimeters
http://www.bountifulfarm.com/lgd_seminar.htm

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Before you call someone a lair you have better check your history.
A wise man once said there's a fool born a every minute
Must of took you hours before you were born!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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It's better to be hated for being yourself
Then loved for being someone else

You are incorrect and you don't know what you're talking about.

We have bred ours to be all around farm dogs that do livestock guarding, herding, ride shotgun in the vehicle, protect our family, protect our territory, be highly trainable to work with people, track, kill vermin and a whole lot more.

I've been training, breeding and working with dogs for decades. Fact is, you're wrong.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

Pops, you said we should be ashamed of the pit bull history????????
In 1917 a pit bull SGT Subby was a World War 1 war hero
Mark Twain,Theodore Roosevelt,Laura Ingalls Wilder,Thomas Edison,
Woodrow Wison,Jhon Steinbeck,Helen Keller,FredAstaire
All own pit bulls.
Now you want me to be ashamed of a war hero, and all the famous Americans that own pit bulls.
But maybe your right and all the people were dog fighters and drug dealers.

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It's better to be hated for being yourself
Then loved for being someone else

Hey, I have an idea...let's have a fight! Geesh.

Italics mine.

In fact, some aussie handlers refer to this desire to be near you as "velcro."

Dog was an Aussie mutt and she would have suffered being outside alone. She knew ours from others once she was trained (mostly on cats) and knew how far she should physically go on the property, and no further.

She picked up on who we liked and didn't like so fast, there was no training.

I mistrusted one person who came over occasionally, and she knew it. She stuck by him/watched him.

Another time two very bad persons came over, she did this awful bay at them, and charged. We did not tell her to do that, but we loved her for it. We called her back to us, and she came, and we praised her for her good judgment. These are really responsive dogs; they read you, your tension, etc. Therefore they know bad folks from neutral and good in that way.

Im sure you have some nice yard dogs, but that has nothing to do with the statement that was made about breed developement.

Unless of course youve developed your own breed. All the ones I saw on the links you posted were mixed breeds

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

IMHO Mommabooh,

You will be greatly reducing any buddy/friendship with a dog if you just leave him as an outside dog, in a barn stall. If I had to think what was the most valuable thing to protect on my farm, I'd have to say my family comes before my livestock, so perhaps a well trained dog in your home may be worth looking into. That said, I would highly recommend going with an English Shepherd type dog for in the home, and something along the lines of the LGD breeds for protecting your outside & livestock. A lot of folks say go with a Great Pyr, but I'd look into the others as well. I really like the Maremma, Kuvaz or others.

I can highly recommend going with dixiemaidens dogs for English Shepherd type dogs. She still has a few left and they are on the barder board. She lives in SW MO. I am very happy with my black & tan from her. Depending one your needs, you make like chuck or scout, however scout has the most prey drive. But please look into them, I think you could not do better by her.

I have been into herding & farm dogs for close to 20 years now. (if that is worth anything)

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A good dog may be hard to find, ...but a hard dog usually means it's been dead for a while

I agree with Slev. We usually get mixed breed pups of the working breed variety (shepherd, retriever, etc). We also prefer females - they don't seem to become as aggressive as males. The main thing we do is spend time with them. In my opinion, dogs won't learn what their job is if you don't tell them.

We have never had problems with our dogs and livestock after they've been properly introduced.

You don't want an Aussie. I have two. My fiancee's mother had 6. 2 had to be put down this year and a 3rd will be tomorrow due to advanced age and inability to get around. They have tons of hair you CANNOT ignore at your peril. My mother in law's dog had to be put down because the vet didn't detect the fact that she had a big infection deep in her hip that was leaking out thru her hip muscles..simply because she had lots of hair. Take my word. Don't get an Aussie unless you like a velcro dog or a dog that you have to comb daily. Not a joke. My fiancee won't be getting any more Aussies, period!

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Ted H

You may all go to Hell, and I will go to Texas.
-Davy Crockett

Raccoon
apparently i didn't state this clearly enough:
the idiots that perpetuate the farm dog lie generally believe the breed's TRUE history as a canine gladiator is something to be ashamed of. the demands of the pits created this incredible breed. making up lies to avoid the truth is a huge part of the problem w/ pits being in the wrong hands, no pit dog has ever been involved in a mauling. all pits involved in attacks have been kept first & foremost as pets by people ignorant of the breed. i actually didn't think you were outright lieing, i just wanted you to understand the crap you were parrotting was pure BS.

Highland
"You are incorrect and you don't know what you're talking about"

Actually i am totally correct, and apparently i know a darn site more than you do. the closest thing to an "all around farm dog" ever created are the cur breeds the blackmouth, catahoula & lacy are still multipurpose but the mountain cur, leopard cur & plott are all pretty much strictly hunting dogs now. the first three are used in rounding up livestock especially ranged cattle & horses but are generally too rough for soft stock like sheep & goats. also the don't truly herd in the sense of a collie, the keep the herd together as a group while you move them. the hunting instincts of these breeds also contribute toward their running off or taking down predators. they make fair guard dogs and will hunt hard day after day. that being said everything they do can be done better by a breed developed for that purpose.

"We have bred ours to be all around farm dogs that do livestock guarding, herding, ride shotgun in the vehicle, protect our family, protect our territory, be highly trainable to work with people, track, kill vermin and a whole lot more."

How exactly do your amazing do it all dogs shrink from 80# to 15# and squeeze into holes around the barn slaying rats? fact is i personally know terriermen in the US that have terriers that can go into your barn alone and kill more rats in a couple of hours than all three of your dogs will in a week. the reality is every actual job you mentioned can be done better by a dog developed for that purpose. a good pyr, asd or maremma will leave your lab/gsd crosses looking second rate, especially when you get an unhealthy overpopulation of real predators like wolves. a good collie (just good not great) of any working type will do the same at herding. a good dutch sheperd or bandog will be killing intruders while your mutts are barking from a safe distance. hounds & curs are used by prisons for mantrailing for a reason, the same reason dangerous game hunters use them, because gsd/lab crosses are too good & it wouldn't be sporting to run a 2 day old lion track in the desert with them.

"I've been training, breeding and working with dogs for decades. Fact is, you're wrong."
I went on my first hog hunt one night almost 30 years ago w/ the same black mouth cur & leopard dogs (they weren't catahoulas yet) that worked my uncles cattle all day. about 5 years later i started working on a guys yard in Pampa TX. he had just over 30 dogs that had either been proven in the box or would be when they matured. i have had the opportunity in the military to see the difference between trained protection dogs & the junk people believe will protect them & i have made both quit the fight (i have the scars on my hand, arms & left leg to remind me). I have heard firsthand from hunters out west what real predators like wolves WILL do to inferior dogs that just don't have the size &/or fight. Fact is, you're full of crap.

Mammabooh, I have an English Shepherd and while I love her and she's a great help here (we have sheep and chickens), I'm sure she wouldn't do well left outside or in a barn all the time. She really wants to be working WITH us, and when we leave the field, she's right by our side. If Aussies have the same kind of temperament, they'd be unhappy spending the bulk of their time away from their humans.

I love the herding breeds...have 300 pounds worth of them roaming around the house at this very moment...but you have to be mindful of prey drive if you're looking for a livestock guardian. Two of my three GSD's don't have high prey drive, but one can't be trusted alone with stock. My shetland sheepdog also had extremely high prey drive. I'd also worry about leaving a herding breed outside 24/7 unless you plan on spending a good bit of each day working outdoors with the dog. Their mental health (and subsequently their behavior) depends upon being with their handler. I haven't kept LGD's but from what I've heard here, they (whether it be a pyr, maremma, kuvatz, anatolian, whatever) would probably be a better bet.

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Melissa
Reformed hoyden. Please forgive me if I relapse.

Hey!!!!!!! Pops ur making this to easy.You said that the closest thing to a all around farm dog now ,are Blackmouth curs (good dogs had one) Catahoula and Lacy's curs .
Hate to bust your bubble ,but they all have pit bulls in there history.
They are pit bull crosses.Check ur history!!!!!!!!!Actually the American pitbull is believed by many famous dog men to have American hound in their back ground
The pit bull has been in America ever since the first English and Irish settlers came to
America .
The greatest rat killer in history was a black and tan terrier (english pit bull)
In America's history the pit bull was very popular ,They were once call the all around "American dog"

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It's better to be hated for being yourself
Then loved for being someone else

Raccoon
okay now you're just being willfully obtuse in a clear attempt to get me to waste my time on typing a thorough dissertation on the histories of the breeds mentioned.
here's the short version
the BMC & the leopard dog descend from british curs w/ the leopard probably having a strong infusion of french breeds especially the boar hunting beauceron. the lacy is a development of the family off their base german stock w/ the addition of similar style dogs from neighbors and limited outcrosses to sighthound & herding breeds (and allegedly coyote). the family kept very good records and never mentioned the addition of pit dogs or even bulldogs.
in fact pit bulls are not in their history but their present as indiviual w/ inferior stock cross pit or bulldog on to them to make a harder dog for hog hunting.
the pit bull has only been with us for a little over 100 years. however bull & terriers (the base stock from which several breeds originate) have been with us since close to the beginning, just as soon as gambling men could afford to import them.
the black & tan was not a pit bull (didn't exist yet) and in fact had no bull in it, it was the breed most working terriers (like fells, lakeys, manchesters & borders) came from.
for the record the "greatest" rat killers ever were two english bullterriers, one killed over 70 in 15 minutes and the other over 100 in 30 minutes in the rat pits. but these dogs would still have been too big for cleaning out barns & such, where true terriers can't be touched for performance.
i have a longdog to take out for a run, hopefully we'll get a fox or some feral cats. i'll gladly correct more misinformation when i get back.

Pops2,

Technically you're correct and not correct at the same time. Catahoula leopards actually came from Native American Indian dogs combined with the red wolf AND the beauceron. The pups that come in black/tan or red/tan are from the beauceron background but ALL catahoulas carry the beauceron genes along with the red wolf which is why catahoulas are such good watch dogs and do not really like strangers and exhibit a lot of wolf like behaviors. I also believe that the Spanish mastiffs were crossed in with the catahoula way back and it pops up in the breed a pup that looks like a great dane or some such. Blackmouth is simply a yellow cur that was kept seperate from the catahoula and in many ways, more gritty for some reason. Blue lacy...well, I have one, and nobody actually knows what went in the breed for sure. The lacy registery is owned by a member of the Lacy family and even they do not know what went into the breed. They are saying maybe some greyhound, coyote, or scent hound. My guess is mountain cur crossed with something else because blue lacys can and often are thin looking but are gritty if needed. Main problem is the registery is in denial if any other breed might've been involved in the creation of the breed and profess to say that the breed is pure..in reality, it hasn't been that long since blue lacys were kept purebred. Less than maybe 100-150 years.

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Ted H

You may all go to Hell, and I will go to Texas.
-Davy Crockett

well im sittin here in tasmania having a laugh at this thread...
i reckon pops might have some good points....
i dont know much but it seems from my experience that certain breeds excel at certain tasks that is in their genes i guess....

well you wouldnt get a wolf as a babysitter now would you
but the say most dogs have descended from wolves....
and that makes you think as well......
how did we get jack russells and chihuahas

they say maremmas are pretty good.....spanish sheep dogs i think
but ive never had one,ive a few wiltshire horn hair sheep,some muscovies and chooks.....two jack russells and a kelpie cross rotweiller i think

the kelpie cross never wants to leave your side and the terriers want to kill anything that runs.....

but to the question i would like to ask is ...as they are all under one year old how do i stop them messing everywhere??

there is a runny land mine wherever i tread.......in the garage,near the steps etc etc.....so any help would be greatly appreciated thanks..