propane tank keeps freezing

Sparticle · #21 02/12/08, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyd

Good luck with that tank.
It's pretty small, and if you have any load on it it will freeze up.
I've frozen up 50 pounders of freon on a summer day.
Our BBQ tank will not put out enough when it's just barely below freezing.
I don't think it's any problem with wetness or regulators, just the tank itself.

we've had this setup for several months now and it just started doing this this last week though when it got really cold.

tamsam · #22 02/12/08, 01:53 PM

Is that reg off a gas grill? I use the same size tank on out heater and never had a problem. If possible go to a store that deals with propane things and tell them what you have and what you are using and ask to see the reg they recommend. That does not look anything like my reg. Other than that the only thing it can think of is water in the system. Good luck getting it fixed. Sam

Sparticle · #23 02/12/08, 01:56 PM

the only place i can go is the place where we bought the tank and whatever is attached to it. Although at this point with the storm coming in I'm not going anywhere. Otherwise it'll be over a week before I could get to a city for someone else to look at it.

kwagner21 · #24 02/12/08, 02:06 PM

did you try S & D petroleum in cincy? that's were we get ours. don't know if that was were you went or not.

Sparticle · #25 02/12/08, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwagner21

did you try S & D petroleum in cincy? that's were we get ours. don't know if that was were you went or not.

oops edit: no that's not where we go, i just called them. i guess he gets it from true value. i went in there already today and they were no help.

RiverPines · #26 02/12/08, 02:18 PM

You should never need to wrap the tank in anything!!
Actually you should never wrap a propane tank.

You have to have either one, dual regulator or 2 regulators. One has to be on the tank, high pressure....the other has to be on the line, outside, close to the house and that one is a low pressure regulator.
Without proper regulators, problems will happen.

Now, a small leak of propane, perhaps to small to smell, will cause freezing!
If its a tiny leak, you may not see the frost and freezing all the time, depending on air circulation.
Usually if you have a leak on the tank/regulator, the first thing to do is look for the frost!
Have you done the soap bottle spay test?
Use liquid soap mixed with water to search for pin leaks.

Sparticle · #27 02/12/08, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverPines

You should never need to wrap the tank in anything!!
Actually you should never wrap a propane tank.

You have to have either one, dual regulator or 2 regulators. One has to be on the tank, high pressure....the other has to be on the line, outside, close to the house and that one is a low pressure regulator.
Without proper regulators, problems will happen.

Now, a small leak of propane, perhaps to small to smell, will cause freezing!
If its a tiny leak, you may not see the frost and freezing all the time, depending on air circulation.
Usually if you have a leak on the tank/regulator, the first thing to do is look for the frost!
Have you done the soap bottle spay test?
Use liquid soap mixed with water to search for pin leaks.

if it warms up tomorrow I'll do this again. i know we sprayed it to test for leaks when we first put it in. I didn't see a regulator coming into the house, but I didn't know to look for a 2nd one so may not have noticed it. Thank goodness for the wood stove!

RedneckPete · #28 02/12/08, 03:24 PM

Your tank is to small. You need a bigger tank or a way to keep it warm. When propane turns from liquid to vapour, it need heat to do so. Insulating your tank will only aggravate the situation. Either switch to a bigger tank or wrap the tank with an electric heating pad and hope it doesn't overheat and blow up on you.

Pete

tamsam · #29 02/12/08, 04:04 PM

I have run a 20lb tank on our wall heater many many time and have a 100lb tank like the one there. I also have 1 reg at the tank and I have never had it freeze up even when it was -4 degrees and it was running wide open. I still don't know where it is freezing. Is it at the valve, reg, or the line coming in? Where do you pour the water to thaw it up? Has the tank been left open while you took it to fill and when you take it to fill make sure the reg is cover so as not to get water in it. When I take ours off the tank to have the tank filled it goes on a 20lb as soon as I unhook it. It is good that you have a wood stove to cook on and don't have to depend on this setup for heat. Again good luck. Sam

Nevada · #30 02/12/08, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A.

Propane freezes at -310, so I think your problem is else where.

It's not freezing, it's just getting cold enough that it stops flowing. As you can see, propane has no vapor pressure at all at -44 F (while the left chart scale is labeled in psi, it's actually psig).

propane tank keeps freezing - Homesteading Questions

propane tank keeps freezing - Homesteading Questions

But outside temperature is only half the story. There is a severe cooling effect from the evaporation of propane. High draw can cool a propane tank down to the point where there is no propane available in short order.

As has already been pointed out, a larger tank will have more heat capacity, and possibly help you make it through the night. That can be expensive though.

There's no point in warming the lines or regulator, since those are both vapor phase anyway. You need to warm the liquid in the tank. Place the heat tracing tape near the bottom of the tank to keep the liquid warm. Doing that will keep the propane flowing, but be careful not to leave it on when the outside temperature gets warm or you may overpressure your tank.

Failing that, you may need to reduce your propane draw on cold nights. A small (perhaps 10,000 btu/hour) unvented kerosene space heater may augment your indoor heat enough on cold nights to keep your propane draw under control, avoiding flow stoppage.

Sparticle · #31 02/12/08, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevada

It's not freezing, it's just getting cold enough that it stops flowing. As you can see, propane has no vapor pressure at all at -44 F (while the left chart scale is labeled in psi, it's actually psig).

propane tank keeps freezing - Homesteading Questions

But outside temperature is only half the story. There is a severe cooling effect from the evaporation of propane. High draw can cool a propane tank down to the point where there is no propane available in short order.

As has already been pointed out, a larger tank will have more heat capacity, and possibly help you make it through the night. That can be expensive though.

There's no point in warming the lines or regulator, since those are both vapor phase anyway. You need to warm the liquid in the tank. Place the heat tracing tape near the bottom of the tank to keep the liquid warm. Doing that will keep the propane flowing, but be careful not to leave it on when it gets warm or you may overpressure your tank.

Failing that, you may need to reduce your propane draw on cold nights. A small (perhaps 10,000 btu/hour) unvented kerosene space heater may augment your indoor heat enough on cold nights to keep your propane draw under control, avoiding flow stoppage.

No i only use it for the cook top stove, not heating the house. heating the house is done with the woodstove. Tomorrow I"m going to go back out and look for a 2nd regulator. The other poster asked where it's freezing, i just know. all i know is pouring water over what is in the photograph above did relieve it temporarily. I just can't find the hole that several posters asked about.

Nevada · #32 02/12/08, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparticle

The other poster asked where it's freezing, i just know. all i know is pouring water over what is in the photograph above did relieve it temporarily.

Your top photo looks like the tank is encrusted with ice. Is that the case? If so, what's the source of the ice, and how much of the tank is encrusted?

Sparticle · #33 02/12/08, 04:52 PM

yes there is a lot of ice on top. the room temp water gets rid of it and it comes right back. we are having some crazy weather. i wonder if i could do the bucket thing that someone recommended. just to keep the full brunt of the weather off of it.

Nevada · #34 02/12/08, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparticle

yes there is a lot of ice on top. the room temp water gets rid of it and it comes right back. we are having some crazy weather. i wonder if i could do the bucket thing that someone recommended. just to keep the full brunt of the weather off of it.

If you had a propane draw I would suggest that the ice is having an insulating effect on the tank, but with no draw even the best insulation would have no effect at all.

With no propane draw you can't be getting the propane too cold to flow. Something else must me failing. The only thing that comes to mind is the regulator diaphragm sticking closed. You are using a single port BBQ regulator, designed primarily for warm weather use.

I have a similar setup to yours but I use a 2-port RV regulator designed for all-weather use. In fact, I even use an identical 100# Manchester brand tank. I also use smaller 40# tanks for switch-off so the pilots stay lit, and even the smaller 40# tanks never stop flowing. I draw a lot or propane at night too, since I heat with a 20,000 btu/hour propane furnace. Temperatures here can get as low as -10 F.

A more appropriate regulator would be a 2-port automatic switching model like I use, which normally run about $45 without hoses (you can use your existing hose), or about $60 with new hoses. Here's an example at eBay, but you can probably pick one up at your local RV supply.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RV-LP...spagenameZWDVW

Here's how it works. You put two full tanks on the regulator. It will draw from the tank on the side that the manual switch is point towards (notice the black manual switch pointing to the left in the product photo). When that tank goes empty the regulator, 1) automatically starts drawing from the other tank so flow isn't interrupted, and 2) the green indicator pops to red to let you know that the tank the handle is pointing towards is empty. When you notice the red indicator, switch the manual handle towards the other tank (it will pop to green). You can now remove the empty tank to have it filled. Once filled, wait for the other tank to go empty and repeat the process with the other tank. You never stop flowing!

RiverPines · #35 02/12/08, 07:18 PM

IMO, you have a leak. I would go over that regulator with a lot of soapy water.
Leaks will grow ice!
Thats how we knew when our old regulator went to heck.
Ice.

We had a pin leak...it took a while to find the tiny little bubbles when we sprayed the soap water and it took a lot to find it. But a pin leak still lets freezing cold escape and that will cause frost and ice on anything it touches.

Also after us going through a heck of a lot of learning about needing 2 regulators or a dual regulator, we also learned the hard way, without the proper regulators you can reck your appliances. We burned out our thermo coupling on our oven. The oven was new too.

de Molay · #36 02/12/08, 08:24 PM

I have dealt with this same problem many times here in Northern Alberta, on construction sites. What size tank do you have? How cold is it? It was -50F here more than once this winter. What we do when it gets this cold, is we draw off the liquid from the bottom of the tank and run it thru a propane evaporator which heats the liquid and turns it into a gas again. It's source of heat is the propane itself. This is a very dangerous thing to do if you are not qualified. Liquid propane is very very dangerous. Cars that run on propane have evaporators build into them as well. If it is just home use, I have taken just plain old heat tape, like you use to thaw out a frozen water line. And tape it in a spiral around the valve, regulator and lay it flat on the top of the tank in a spiral and tape it down. And then insulate over top of the heat tape. Never ever use open flame or any source of ignition around a propane tank. The heat tape works and it is safe. I have used it at minus 50F and never had a problem. Hope it helps.

Sparticle · #37 02/13/08, 08:10 AM

it sure does sound like we have the wrong regulator. thank you thank you so much for laying it all out for us. as soon as jeffrey returns home Sunday from work, i'll make sure we get everything setup properly. it's supposed to get up to 33 today, so I'll get out there this afternoon on a break from work and test for leaks also. I'm convinced now though that we have the wrong setup for our use.

rambler · #38 02/14/08, 12:19 AM

Forgot about this site:

http://www.fisherregulators.com/lp/pdf/handbk.pdf

Nice little pdf booklet you can save to your hard drive & reference for how to deal with propane. Shows different withdrawl rates for different tank size/ temp ratios, etc. And regulator info.

--->Paul

Sparticle · #39 02/14/08, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

Forgot about this site:

http://www.fisherregulators.com/lp/pdf/handbk.pdf

Nice little pdf booklet you can save to your hard drive & reference for how to deal with propane. Shows different withdrawl rates for different tank size/ temp ratios, etc. And regulator info.

--->Paul

Cool thanks. I was able to get it going with hot water again last night but of course it's not working this morning. Can't wait till we can get the correct parts to get this fixed.

Toads tool · #40 02/16/08, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevada

A more appropriate regulator would be a 2-port automatic switching model like I use, which normally run about $45 without hoses (you can use your existing hose), or about $60 with new hoses. Here's an example at eBay, but you can probably pick one up at your local RV supply.

!

My thoughts on the matter also when I saw the photo.

My father remedied the same problem with our first travel trailer by buying a better regulator.