USDA forest service making me nuts!

The forest service is there to manage the land. They are the custodians to make sure its there for all of our children and their children. (gawd, I sound like a treehugger, which I'm not) but that is the way it is.

I would imagine they are getting ready, either for a timber sale of the lodgepole, or to get ready for the pine bark beetle invasion like we have here in Co. In 5 years we won't have any live lodgepole left in Colorado. So could be they are going to try to beat it to the punch.

I've lived in the forest before. Its a special place...and you have to give up some things in order to live there.

Were that the case I would agree and we have had our property logged of mature trees for just this reason. The forest plan actually said they were removing the pine and spruce because it was encroaching onto "natural grasslands" that was why I laughed because the USDA is playing like THEY are in charge of what is natural and what is not and THEY correct any problems THEY see with the way nature has done things and then THEY claim they are returning the lands back to natural? these are some twisted ideas! sis

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www.MontanaSticksAndStones.com at Goshen Farm

Hi there,

I used to be an insurance agent.

Sorry I didn't post sooner, but I signed up last week and was only approved today. Do you carry a farm/ranch inusrance policy on your place? That is a commercial policy and getting a certificate of insurance is easy! Just call your agent and ask for a certificate of insurance listing the Forest Service as an additional named insured on your policy. My agent said they might charge $20.00 additional for the certificate, but it is doable and easy.

We are also surrounded by National Forest and have to travel a Forest Road to get to the highway. We have made a point of making nice with the local Ranger. We also let several Boy Scout troops camp at our place. They camp for free and in exchange they do some chores for us. We always get a Certificate of insurance listing us as an additional named insured from them, and it covers us for liability if one of the kids or their leaders is injured at our place. It isn't nearly as complicated as it seems. Just call your agent!

OK, Another point that needs to be made here. Some of you have been bagging on Sisterpine a little about the USFS's right to impede access to her property. The truth is that most inholdings (private lands within a National Forest) date back to a time before the USFS came into existence. That is the case with my own property, whose private ownership can be traced back to at least 1865. The USFS is my neighbor, not my master!

In past decades the USFS tried to deny access to Alaskan natives to get to their own property that was inside a National Forest. They fought this, and because of this a provision was written into ANILCA which denied the USFS the right to deny private landowners access to their own properties that are located within the National Forest.

ANILCA stands for "Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act". It's provisions are located here http://www.r7.fws.gov/asm/anilca/toc.html. I was concerned during the Clinton administration that I would lose access to my ranch during Clinton's roadless initiative. A USFS Ranger assured me that no private landowner would lose access to their lands because the provisions of ANILCA prohibit it. I have not had the time to read the entire initiative, however if my access were ever threatened, I would become an expert on the issue.

The Certificate of Insurance that the USFS asked for is issued for free or for a small fee from your insurance agent. Just call your agent and get it.I would do this every year at renewal time, and provide it for my USFS Ranger. While the USFS is not my master, I don't want to establish a reputation as a trouble maker. If I need to do battle, so be it, but I will certainly choose my battles wisely!

This is probably due to fire....or to be more precise...LACK of fire. Fires routinely kept meadows as meadows and kept regenerating aspen and lodgepole (both fire dependent species). Without fire coming through every so often forests get diseased (and more prone to beetle infestations, etc.) or they change (meadows become forests). So the FS can either let forests burn (which becomes harder to do with houses, and the people who go on TV yelling to have their house saved, in the way) or use mechanical means to do it. Unfortunately doing it mechanically gets people all ticked off (leave nature alone...*ahem* see "fire" above)) and also doesn't do as good a job as a hot fire. But those are the choices.

They have been acting in the place of real nature for years by putting out fires. Now when they let them burn or start them in a preventative manner they get villified in the press.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread! Good luck resolving your access. I think some folks have suggested some good ideas, the best of which being start early in the spring to resolve it for the winter. I might also figure out a plan to charge them for parking vehicles on your property. The revenue for that might pay for keeping the road open. And the private contractors who will be logging might be willing to pay handsomely for the privilidge as well. Tore up vandalized equipment is expensive.

Yup good ideas indeed. We will be much earlier next year. Was my own fault for thinking there was no permit when i could find no information regarding this on the net or by calling our local FS office. So now I know better! There is no official permit thing to apply for but it does fall under road use permissions stuff and that is where we are now. We have a permit, now, for this year and will do much better in the fall. Thanks to all. sis

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www.MontanaSticksAndStones.com at Goshen Farm

To get a little deeper into this subject for your research purposes and so forth, if the access road you are on was in place BEFORE 1976, it falls under the RS 2477 and is not subject to the Federal Land Management and Policy Act UNLESS you give the management agency VOLUNTARY JURISDICTION over you by applying for and receiving a "permit" which then can be revoked as all "privileges" are subject to. A brief RS 2477 explanation will help you understand a little, and if you want to get in depth of the RS 2477 issue reading more about what was won in various court agencies against the "circus" and the BLM and why the mental-environists want to do away with RS 2477 altogether [then no one would be allowed access to public lands without specialized permission under no uncertain terms]

When you purchased the property you were given ingress and egress rights of way, those go back in history to the time that the land was "claimed" by either homestead, mining or timber claim, or was part of the Rail road ROW... in any case, more than likely it was claimed PRIOR to 1976 and the RS 2477 USER MAINTAINED right of way, giving no rights to the FS officer[sic] to "give you a citation for violation of any regulation".

Learn your avenues of rights, learn how to asert those rights, and learn to make the servants what they are, merely servants and not overlords above you...... of course that means learning that since 1938 the coursts have all been under a different set of "rules" than prior to the ERIE RAILROAD CO. vs. THOMPKINS, 304 U.S. 64, 82 L. Ed. 1188) where the common law was removed from the courts and only ploicy was to be used in determining the outcome of an action. and then learning that it is policy the courts generally rule upon because of those courts sitting as an "admiralty court" and not a court of Law. while the people were sleeping the corporations took over and slipped into positions of making people merely "persons" and making corporations "persons" as well, making all subject to the same code and punishments.....

anyhow its up to the individual as how they want to approach the subject, but in my opinion asking for permission is not an option if you already have a right of way via the user maintained RS 2477.

William
Central idaho

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Upon the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who when on the dawn of victory paused to rest, and there resting died.
- John Dretschmer

Bluduck and Stetsoncreek have some very good points but you need to check .There were programs in place to allow homesteading on forest service lands after the forest service was formed. The forest service and BLM are notorious for solving problems by running roughshod over the little guy.
I have worked for Both agencies .I did a bit of reserch on my own one time when dealing with what I thought was a particulary rotten adjudication by the BLM.
Out of every 100 decisions by the BLM less than 1 percent are appealed.
We are talking about desions that throw people out of their lifes work and homes!
I was amazed that more people didnt fight at least some.
Then I thought maybe its cause the government is always right and there is no point in fighting,
So I did a bit more reserch.
Out of every 100 case that were appealed 65% got all they wanted and another 30% got some.
THAT MEANS 95% of appeals WORKED!
And that the goverment was wrong 95% of the time.

Blu3duck, you are wise and learned! I will be keeping the information you provided for future reference.

Fantasymaker, I too was a federal employee. I saw my peers make decisions based on their opinions rather than the laws we were sworn to uphold. I am with you. If the govt tramples your rights, fight them.

Sisterpine,

You may want to check with your insurance company to see if you are covered for driving on a road that is closed. My insurance company will not cover me if I drive on a road that is closed and I have a wreck. I didn't believe this either until a friend of mine (MT highway patrol) told me this.

Bobg