Grass makes better ethanol than corn
 

We're gonna be RICH! lololol...

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...anol-than-corn

I see the bagger going back on the mower. :bouncy: Eddie

What is:
cellulosic biorefining ?

that makes way more sense than growing corn for ethanol. I sure hope the idea of switchgrass takes off and the raising of corn fades away...

I was just reading an article about it today. According to the article it takes 1 gallon of fossel fuel to produce 1.2 gallons of ethanol from corn. It also said it takes 1,700 gallons of water for every gallon of ethanol produced. Each gallon of ethanol leaves behind 12 gallons of waste. Ethanol from corn could be fatal to wildlife. At this time there is 36 million acres of land in the CRP. As many as 10 million acres could be put into corn production. This means the single most beneficial program for fish and wildlife in the nation's history might be gutted.

They are still years away from being able to easily and economically break down the cell structure of the grass to make celulosic ethanol. Grass has a tough cell structure so that it can keep the plant erect. Wired magazine had a group of articles about it a few months ago. You can read some of it on line: http://www.wired.com/science/planete...15-10/ff_plant I'd like to see ethanol production move in that direction, once it is viable. Will it be better for the environment that corn ethanol? Who knows.

Well I don't know where they come up with all these figures. I think they need to talk to some of the old moonshiners. Turn a few of them loose with some tools and copper sheets and we will have some drinking grade 180 proof in about 30 days, and enough mash to feed a few pigs for a couple weeks. Opps gotta have some copper tubing for the worm. If a still is set up right and beside a land fill there is enough methane gas to prob make the shine. Sam

Also meant to add ethanol can be made from anything that will ferment. That means apples, oranges, peaches, and most any fruit. I have even seen watermelon wine. Years ago you could get directions from the gov to build a still and a permit to produce. Sam

A privately owned firm in Florida has patented a method to take fiber from pine trees and covert the pines to ethanol. Pines proliferate in many parts of the country and grow on acid low quality soils and produce lots of biomass for cheap. I am hitching my cart to pine production of ethanol.

There was a program on the Science channel the other night about this.
A scientist concerned with food material being used for energy went looking for a way to make ethanol from the waste instead.
Corn is now used because the single simple sugar is very easy to break down.
And like you said grass has 4 structures and are more complex.
He has found a way! useing e-coli of all things.
The bacteria eats the waste from food production (corn stalks, sugar cane, grass.....most anything) the compost remaining is a single simple sugar.
The bacteria was modified genitically to work, but has proven effectitive.
They are now in the process of proving it will work in a large scale production too.

Corn uses fermenting & yeast to turn the starch into sugar into ethanol.

Cellulosic (woody fiber such as grass stems, cornstalks, wood, etc) uses enzymes to convert strip out the sugars from these woody parts & then ferment into ethanol.

There can be more sugar in the stems, BUT it is much harder to get to, and the enzymes don't yet produce positive energy - they aren't very good. The goal is to improve those enzymes to become positive energy production. They feel another 5-10 years research will be needed.

While it is possible to get more gallons of ethanol from these woody parts, there is much less sugar in each lb of material vs corn. So, another problem to deal with is the HUGE volume of material that needs to be moved & stored. This is nothing to scoff at, it is a real issue.

I hope it works. Different enzymes will work better with different raw materials. It will be interesting to see which (wood, grass, cornstalks, rice stems, corncobs as Poet is working with in South Dakota) will end up working best first.

All the gung-ho reports about how 'good' and 'better' celulose ethanol is certainly puts the cart before the horse at _this_ point in time. We all hope it turns out. Would be great.

--->Paul

I have a big problem with that 1,700 gallons of water. That would assume _zero_ rainfall on the fields of corn. That is just silly. Where I live you can't find any irrigation, we tile the ground to get rid of water. So the ethanol plant near me is using about 1,694 less gallons than what that study says.... If you look into that flawed study, they say the plant itself uses 4-6 gallons of water for each gallon of ethanol produced. Of course, some of that can be recycled, but I'll just leave it at 6 gallons used.

I don't see how you can charge the rainfall as 'water used'. It falls on it's own, no energy on our part. For the most part the corn just rents it, continues on to the ground water or streams with or without the corn in the field.

Just a non-issue.

Even in the heavily irrigated regions, 1/2 the water comes from rainfall, so this 1,700 gallon number is just totally bogus. As far as I can see.

I believe the current efficiency of ethanol plants is 1.35, and they have good plans to get to 1.45 in the next 12-18 months. Efficient corn from ethanol is still a new idea, and is evolving rapidly with better ideas.

Ethanol is dangerous to wildlife? Ok, if I agree it can be - what liquid fuel can you produce that would be _safer_ for wildlife & environment? More oil? You liked MTBE? What? What is the goal with a comment like this? Ethanol is a liquid much more friendly than the alternatives. A comment like this really begs the question of what these people are trying to do -provide info, or spin doctor their own agenda?

Any industrial process has some waste. Ethanol from corn produces about 17 lbs of cattle feed from every 56lb bushel of corn. I kinda don't really trust those folks, as their data seems pretty suspect. I'm sure there is some waste - oil company has some waste left over too right? Is 12 gallons an improvement - what is the real impact here?

Those 36 million acres are going to be targeted for homes, strip malls, corn, switchgrass, or something. Perhaps if the switchgrass deal works & ramps up that would be the better way to ease into those acres. I hope so. Don't like the strip mall/ urban sprawl at all. At one time all those acres were used for grains (only way they could be enrolled....) so it would not be the end of the world to plant them again, but they are not the most productive acres and I'm sure wildlife & hunters appreciate them as is.

In short, I really don't like that 'study' and I have seen it several times. Those fellas started out thinking there were 70 lbs of corn in a bu of corn, and sat behind a desk & made several other assumptions. And used 5 year old data that no longer applies to any operating ethanol plant. All together, they really botched their rearch, and I don't put any faith into what they had to say.

I'm not going to say corn ethanol is the answer to all our energy needs. And there are eccological issues with any part of our enegy production. And it is good to look at the bad, and try to improve.

I think corn ethanol does a lot better than those idiots came up with tho? They really missed the research, & just put out a fluff piece with their personal bias.

My opinion, based on looking at real numbers of real ethanol plants all around me, and real corn fields in the real corn belt.

--->Paul

Not to mention the fact that you are benefitting finacially from the subsidation of ethanol.....that sort of makes your view biased as well.

All energy is subsidised - oil, gas, ng, solar, nukes. Celulostic ethanol is more subsidised than corn ethanol right now. I'm all for the bio-mass setups, hope they work. I'll throw away the corn in a minute if they get the other stuff to work. Whatever, money is not the issue, or shouldn't be, on this thread.

This is not about getting govt money. It's about helping folks understand how it all works. Dopn't give a fig about the money here. It's what works, what doesn't work. Science.

--->Paul

WE (the US) have been working on this for years. As in since Jimmy Carter, and maybe before that. We (the US) are way behind on developing ethanol and other alternative fuels and fuel sources. Corn is *not* a good way to get ethanol.

Down in the SW, they are using aglae with huge (lab) results.

If I were to look into my crystal ball, I would see this type of mass being used.

What everyone is missing here is the loud sucking noise near your wallet. When that finally is as empty as can be then of course we will suddenly find something else that will work in the energy field but of course will cost as usual. Funny thing I can remember when all the experts told us that solar energy was just pie in the sky. Now we have new houses being built with solar panels on the roofs as a matter of course We are now being told how efficient and cheep they are. Hummmmm???

My Dad is a retired mechanical engineer, and he is convinced corn for ethanol is a passing phenomenon. Costly to grow, deplete the soil, require fertilizer and pesticide, plus spin-off costs to livestock/food production when corn is taken for fuel. He says grasses and those fast-growing willows and poplars will make much better sources all around. I think there is still a lot that could be done with wasted materials. In newer top-of-the-line facilities, stalks, peels, fruit pulp, tree bark may be used well, but I suspect a lot of it gets hauled away. It would be nice if somebody figured out clean and economical ways of using that stuff on site or close by for something, be it compost, fuel production, etc. And put corks in those cows to capture methane. ;) Sue

I totally agree with your Dad that ethanol is not the answer. It is a politically easy out to say they are doing something. The energy source for the future will be from many sources. There is no single answer. Wind, solar etc are renewable sources, ethanol is not a renewable source when you count all the inputs to produce it. Lets keep food to eat, not to satisfy a politically correct program so someone can get elected. My prediction is that we are looking at $200 a barrel oil within 5 years and our government will ignore the problem until we are in a depression.

I hope I am wrong.

Bob

Tennessee is building experimental cellulosic plants on a very small experimental scale to perfect the process with an eye to being a major proiducer state. This state has some of the best grass-growing land I have ever seen anywhere, and it would be a boon to our farmers. There are hurdles. Switchgrass is tough to cut and bale, and likely would require tougher equipment than standard baling equipment. Still, it makes more sense than corn.

I agree, corn is in a bubble right now. Especially if we go into a recession to wring out some upside pressures, crude prices will fall back into line and ethanol suddenly won't be such a hot deal anymore. End of bubble.

However, if we could perfect the cellulosic process, we would be using waste like corn stalks collected when combining, and lower-value grasses. Using stalks is value-added to the total corn crop rather than demand added to the seeds.

Yes switch grass can produce ethanol the question is what do you do with the byproducts after the production?
Corn mash after production is still used in animal feed among other things , whats the plan for the Grass mash? do they simply plan to compost it ? wheres the profit in that .
With corn ethanol can be made after the oil is extracted (thats 1) ,the mash is then fermented and ethanol is produced (thats 2) After the ethanol production the mash is used in animal feed (thats 3)

The current thought is to dry the material left after cooking the switch grass or corn stalks & use it in the burner to create much of the heat or electricity the plant needs. That is the current idea. They might come up with something different.

This is _huge_ volume of stuff. Transportation & storage area is going to be huge. Hope it works. Tenneesse is really leading the way on the switch grass, they are one of the best areas for growing the stuff. SD is working with it a bit, but colder climate won't yield quite as much, disadvanage to them.

--->Paul

That was when we had $1/gal oil, and even cheaper propane. Now that the fuel prices have tripled, solar becomes more economical, even though it costs the same as before. Newer designs and less costly solar make it even more attractive.

I've been hearing for years that the biggest boost to renewable energy was going to be when gas hit $3/gal. Guess what... it has, and now renewable energy is big business.

Michael

Ethanol is a way to use corn and natural gas to make a liquid auto fuel, and to improve the market for corn, to help the farmers. One of our state legislators even admits that is why she supports it, to help the many farmers in her district. It only makes sense if you admit that it isn't a source of energy but just a means to produce a fuel that can be used in cars.

The govt. subsidizes the ethanol plants 51 cents per gallon. Without it the plants would close immediately. There are plants being built while at the same time plants are going bankrupt. While corn farmers such as Rambler are making a little more on their corn, most increase in price is cancelled by increased cost of production.Ihave no problem with the corn producers making a decent living....the real money is being made by ADM, CArgill,Monsanto, etc. Goldman Sachs suddenly got interested in grains when the Ethanol boondoggle started. Go back to October 2006 and you can see by grain price increases when ethanol producers started receiving their money from Uncle Sam. I'm sure Rambler feels like I'm against him making a profit; that's not the case.....He as well all Americans are paying for what the polititians have goofed up.

Ok so now figure out how much per gallon Gasoline is subsidized . Dont forget to add in all the tax breaks , free land leases, and deductions for "exploration "

The current ramp-up in grain prices has to do with global demands & global ecconomies. The USA dollar has become worthless compared to other currencies. Look at any time this has happened in the past, and you will see grain prices also rose.

There is little connection between ethanol production & grain prices. Ethanol is to use up the extra grains we produce in this country. I know the media hooks onto whatever simple minded thing they can fit into 30 second sound bites, but they are wrong.

World demand went up, our dollar went down, and hey, people of the world are willing to buy our grains again, instead of letting us drown in them as usual.

It's not the ethanol. It's the global ecconomics vs USA ecconomics.

ADM & Cargill? What are those? Ethanol plants around me are owned by groups of farmers in coops, or Poet out of South Dakota. Bringing up your favorite list of faceless companies to hate on just diminishes your point - you are off the mark in talking about ADM & Cargill. Actually they are crying about it too - here in Minnesota we aren't shipping as much corn down the river any more, and the 17 lbs of DDG (leftover feed) produced is coming from the ethanol plant not their big feed mills. Those 2 companies don't get their hands on our grain any more!

Several ethanol plants were started with great big eyes & hopes & very little planning. They frittered away time & money without understanding what they were getting into and - duh - failed. That happens all the time in all businesses. The plants built and being built that are done with good business planning & sound funding seem to be doing well - yes with govt subsidiy as part of the plan. That subsidy actually is paid to the person blending the fuel, so does not get paid to the farmer or ethanol plant, but I understand - it filters to them as a trickle-down theory.

Closest plant to me was one of the first, funded by farmers themselves, at 15 million gallons production. Expanded 2x to now putting out 100 million gallons. Newest plant they were doing ground work on it last week when I drove by hope to be running in late 2009, should also do well, as it is being built by a good company that understands the business - 50% of the money to build it came from local investors, mostly farmers. Couple of plants built in Illinos & Nebraska were put together with big business investors and 'new thinking' green energy ideas, and a pile of money from the state govts. Those seem to be failing before they are even completed. Just bad people trying to run them, not a failing of the industry.



So, I understand you are not against the farmer, but you do not like govt subsidies on anything. That is fair enough.

Some of the rest as above I don't think you are on the right track at all. I don't wish to argue with you and I don't want to diminish your opinions. I wish I could find a middle ground, I wish you could walk a mile in my shoes, and see what is _really_ happening out there in the northern corn belt with ethanol production. The reality does not match anything you are describing, not even remotely. Since you seem interested in the process, I wish we could find a way to get you up to speed on how it really works.

That would not interfere with your dislike for any type of subsidy, nor your hatred of anything corporate. You can still have those opinions - they would not interefe with a better understanding of how ethanol production and use works.

I can appreciate you questioning the whole deal, and being skeptical of claims is my middle name so I really do understand. :) Good to question new claims.

What bugs me is people who say corn ethanol is a load of carp, while grass ethanol will save the world.....

I think both processes are pretty close, if ya hate one better hate both of them. ;) Both have limitations & growing pains & will take loads of money (from govt most likely) to become strong enough to compete with established fuels. Grass ethanol is currently getting more govt money to start up now than corn does. This doesn't bother me, but if you are complaining about the subsidies to corn ethanol, to be consistant you should be opposed to the subsidies & startup money going to grass ethanol as well?

And that seemed to be the direction many of the comments here are taking - corn ethanol = bad, while grass ethanol = good.

I disagree. I think both have a place, corn for now, hopefully grass in the future beside corn plants, and we continue to find other sources as well.

The problem is our need for liquid fuels to power transportation. We want this in the USA. Gotta find it someplace. Coal, Nuke, methane just don't do it for transportation. We will want some energy dense liquid fuel long into the future. Ethanol and bio-diesel are looking like the best direction to try.

Again, not trying to argue against you. I am a very small farmer here, almost laughed at. I own no stocks in any ethanol plant, my family doesn't work for any. Just would like to have a better understanding of how ethanol works by folks like you. It's ok if you still oppose them. :)

--->Paul
--->Paul

Reply
 

Funny how so many of the people opposed to subsidizing ethanol are the ones who were benefitting when the subsidies were going to corn production rather than corn use. As long as subsidies went to keeping overproduction up so that Cargill, Tyson etc. could get all the cheap feed they wanted, folks buying grain to feed livestock (including an awful lot of "homesteaders") were happy as could be.

The byproducts can still be used as animal feed as the residual byproducts can be fed to large scale worm ranches and those will then produce feed for animals (worms are inverebrates but still anima life) organic fertilizers and more feed thats high in protein as the adult worms can be fed to other livestock and the egg capsules reach brandling stage in 28 to 36 days replenishing the herd.

so thats a 1, 2 and a 3 a 3 b and another 3a by your numbering of benefits :shrug:

Lets be realistic here how many worm framers are set up to deal with 20 or more tons of byproduct a day . How many days will it take the worms to break down the first 20 tons ?
Im not arguing that worms arent a good protein source. Im pointing out that I dont think worm bedding sells for near as much as corn mash.
Bottom line is the money the simplest quickest way to make money is going to be the way they go .
Now if switch grass can be made into a direct livestock feed or fertilizer great

http://www.terracycle.net/products.htm

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2...inishedcj3.jpg

Terra cycle has allready done that, and is VERY profitable
Sells for far more than corn mash too.

Worm poop sounds like a great companion industry for the ethanol industry.

Worms are a livestock that is high in protein and decomped grasses are the feed of many species.

I have a listing of about 95 large scale worm ranchers who supply commercial capacity livestock waste conversion and a listing of 150 to 200 small market farmers with goals of ramping up as the markets develop.

A contact of mine in Canada is currently accepting 15 to 30 tons of organic wastes per week and planning on ramping up production to 3 times that within the next 2 years. She also plans on expanding into the U.S. market by 2015.

My study of inverterbrate biology and vermiculture varies my herd in relation to the experiments I am involved with at a particular time.

While I always maintain a herd sufficient to fill my agronomic and bait sales needs , I have ramped the E.f. portion of my herd up within a year to accomodate waste disposal of a herd of 500 steers.

Ethonol from grass may very well provide a lucrative market potential for the medium to large scale growers I exchange dialog and debate with and I have already posted the link on a couple vermiculture forums on which I participate and emailed the article link to the worm rancher in Canada , a few of the large scale U.S. ranchers and a biology professor.

As the old joke about folks thinking all that beef is raised in slices on a piece of styrofoam, all to many folks today think worms just magically appear in plastic deli cups with air holes.

There are many of us confinement farming them from one bin home composters to 50 acre large scale windrow farms. We all maximize our current markets to as much as they can yield or we choose to pursue, yet we all have the capacity to easily increase our herds when required.

You may very well see some ads in the google ad banner for Happy D worm Ranch, Wriggler Wranch, Trinity Worm Farms and other large commercial worm ranches and vermiculture pubs now that we have a few posts to waffle the google spiders on this thread.

Yep. Terra cycle uses recycled soda bottles. For my small local market of wormcast tea that I package in 20 ounce and 2 liter soda bottles, I'm thinking about getting a couple rubber stamps made so I can fill my soda bottles with hot water to make the label glue easy to pull the label up from.

Then stamp my logo on th white inside, then put the label back on the bottle with my label out, then use the bottle heat water to add to the tea percolator or the bin watering resevoir

Neat idea....recycling at it's finest!
I wonder if it would be legal to put a deposit on the bottles.
Value added for the bottles that don't come back, and less collecting for the ones that do.

For my small local market share here, I have some neighbors who save their bottles for me and I have given a couple kids a dime for each 2 liter bottle and a nickle for each dr pepper 20 ounce bottle until I had a surplus of containers for the season to bottle the liquid fertilizer.