Somethings gotta give ya'll

Windy in Kansas · #**101** 01/06/08, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtlehead

I agree. I think it's up to US to do something about this. Insulate, heat with alternative methods, move to a warmer climate, whatever it takes.

BINGO! You have the solution. People need to understand fuel savings is a great part of the key to getting by during higher energy costs.

Weatherization and super insulation are where we need to start. The old Rodale publications of New Shelter magazine had some great information in them. In one of the issues a feature was done that told of a builder in New York state that builds homes so tight and so well insulated that he doesn't even put furnaces in them. The heat from cooking, water heater, refrigerator, lamps, body heat, etc. provide all of the heating needs. As I recall, the homes he builds have R-40 insulation in the sidewalls and R-90 insulation in the ceilings.

The money saved from purchasing a furnace, ductwork, and installation pay for the additional insulation and weatherization. Of course the homes to require an air to air heat exchanger to bring in fresh air and to expel the stale humid air.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to never have a heating bill?

It wouldn't be easy to retrofit a house to such tightness for air infiltration nor to add so much insulation but doing what one can is a start.

One way to gain insulation is to build perimeter walls a few inches from existing walls to give a thermal break and then insulation the space between the two. Yes it would rob interior space. My local big box store now carries 2" X 3" lumber which would be ideal for such. Extending window jams would be a pain but could be done pretty easily with biscuit joinery. Relocating electrical boxes a few inches could also be a pain but doable for the ultimate gain.

Building a home correctly from the get go is something all builders should be required to do during these times of energy uncertainty. Yet 2" X 4" framed homes are going up by the thousands with few tubes of caulking even being used let alone several cases of it.

How many of us on these forums have any kind of solar assistance for heating water or air, or even use it for photovoltaics? No amount of complaining will do anything toward alleviating our annual energy needs, we need to get off our duffs and actually do something.

stanb999 · #**102** 01/06/08, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonykill

1st, thank you

If you go back to my 1st post on this thread, I haven't had a heating bill since 1991. Other than my labor and a few gallons of gas and bar oil here and there.

Everyone has their own definition of homesteading. And if their way makes them happy, great. I'm not judging, its observations and opinions. Rather than try once again to put my definition into words, I'll give a few examples....Again opinions:

If you live in the snow belt, and your heating bill is more than a few hundred $ a winter, you are not self sufficient enough and not yet homesteader...in my eyes anyway.

If your weekly food bill is more than $50 for a family of 4, you are not self sufficient enough, and not Yet a homesteader

If the new truck, tractor and barn are financed, you are not yet a homesteader

Now to some, having a sign at the end of the driveway saying "_____Farm" with a new truck and tractor, both financed through the bank...well in their eys, they are homesteading. Not in mine.

Now.... if you (forgive me, not you, I tend to speak/type in the 3rd person), are working full time, to pay up those debts, while figuring out how to live at poverty levels, heat for just your labor, feed yourself for next to nothing, and make due with what you have, without spending any money, well then you are on your way to becoming a homesteader.

Not judging....observations from scanning this and other sites.

I am always working to be more self sufficient as are many here.

I come here looking for ideas. I see a lot of threads on 50 inch tv's , pools, $3000 heating bills, $25,000 tractors, $500 store bought solar ovens...etc. To me, and apparantly just to me, this isn't what homesteading is about.

Now a few here, really have the homesteading figured out. I am in awe if Texican. Thats my kind of homesteader. There are others as well, his name just popped into my head. I love his threads.

Now....I'm sure the hate mail will roll in. It seems if you (again 3rd person, I can't help myself), have a varying opinion to the mainstream, you or in this case me, is a blithering idiot. God forbid anyone should have a varying opinion.

I'm not judging anyone, just pointing out, if your heating bill is $600 a month, I don't consider you a homesteader. You may be working towards becoming one....but you are a LONG way off.
And what I think only matters to me. Although I am sure there is a silent minority here that agrees, but is smart enough to remain silent.

Let's take it one step further....

Your not a true "homesteader" IF

You purchase building materials. Other than nails. But by rights you should even make them.
You use fuel powered farm equipment. Draft horses are available. So are splitting mauls and cross cut saws (firewood).
You buy food other than in it's "raw" form. grain not bread for instance.
You get meat on a plastic tray. You should raise your own meat and grow the feed for them. You also butcher yourself. Can/smoke/salt it too for storage. Electric cold storage is expensive.

Just for starters. As for the new truck, large screen tv, Ect. threads. I haven't seen many here. But it could be that I'm not looking for them.

TSYORK · #**103** 01/06/08, 12:33 PM

Folks!!!! All I meant was home heating fuel was too high. I really don't think it justified a "peeing contest."

I guess I'll keep my thoughts to myself next time.

stonykill · #**104** 01/06/08, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanb999

Let's take it one step further....

Your not a true "homesteader" IF

You purchase building materials. Other than nails. But by rights you should even make them.
You use fuel powered farm equipment. Draft horses are available. So are splitting mauls and cross cut saws (firewood).
You buy food other than in it's "raw" form. grain not bread for instance.
You get meat on a plastic tray. You should raise your own meat and grow the feed for them. You also butcher yourself. Can/smoke/salt it too for storage. Electric cold storage is expensive.

Just for starters. As for the new truck, large screen tv, Ect. threads. I haven't seen many here. But it could be that I'm not looking for them.

for me thats too far. Our homesteading forefathers were happy to hook up to the grid once it was available, they bought tractors once they were affordable, and the same with chainsaws. I don't have any problem with modern tools , items, if they make the work, or life easier, and are affordable. Chainsaws are cheap, and speed the process of gathering wood. Tractors do the work of horses, without the pesky vet bills, and unless they are a large tractor, sip fuel.

Lets not forget, killing wildfood in season. Even more affordable than raising your own. It could also be argued it may be healthier.

stanb999 · #**105** 01/06/08, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSYORK

Folks!!!! All I meant was home heating fuel was too high. I really don't think it justified a "peeing contest."

I guess I'll keep my thoughts to myself next time.

But peeing contests are fun!!!!

seedspreader · #**106** 01/06/08, 12:56 PM

In general, I don't think anyone has stepped over the "not nice" line.

It's ok to disagree and point out flaws in other peoples arguments and thoughts. It makes us all better.

It's different than being critical for the sake of being critical... I see that from some people. They don't add anything to the discussion except to ratchet up accusation and anger.

I thank everyone for their participation. It's been a good discussion. I wasn't kidding when I said I like StonyKill... I just see this from a different perspective than he does.

stonykill · #**107** 01/06/08, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedspreader

In general, I don't think anyone has stepped over the "not nice" line.

It's ok to disagree and point out flaws in other peoples arguments and thoughts. It makes us all better.

It's different than being critical for the sake of being critical... I see that from some people. They don't add anything to the discussion except to ratchet up accusation and anger.

I thank everyone for their participation. It's been a good discussion. I wasn't kidding when I said I like StonyKill... I just see this from a different perspective than he does.

well thats what makes the world go round isn't it? Different opinions, etc. I personally get more out of a discussion like this than a typical thread.

It's all just opinions. I don't beleive there has been any name calling

stanb999 · #**108** 01/06/08, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonykill

well thats what makes the world go round isn't it? Different opinions, etc. I personally get more out of a discussion like this than a typical thread.

It's all just opinions. I don't beleive there has been any name calling

I totally agree.... IS it even possible.

As for the price of fuel.... It's gonna hurt a lot of folks. Let's hope something can be done. But I don't think anything can or will.

seedspreader · #**109** 01/06/08, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanb999

I totally agree.... IS it even possible.

As for the price of fuel.... It's gonna hurt a lot of folks. Let's hope something can be done. But I don't think anything can or will.

Fuel for heating will be a long slow painful death...

It will slowly and consistently trickle UP... eating up expendable income that normally would be used to buy other things.

seedspreader · #**110** 01/06/08, 01:16 PM

BTW, for the record, we have an oil furnace 80+% efficient...

Haven't filled the tank in 2.5 years. We use all wood.

stanb999 · #**111** 01/06/08, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedspreader

BTW, for the record, we have an oil furnace 80+% efficient...

Haven't filled the tank in 2.5 years. We use all wood.

We have a Propane furnace. I don't know if it works still. I started it the first day we bought this place and haven't used it since. We heat with wood only.

stonykill · #**112** 01/06/08, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanb999

We have a Propane furnace. I don't know if it works still. I started it the first day we bought this place and haven't used it since. We heat with wood only.

I haven't had an oil furnace since the winter of 91. I used it in the winter of 90, then it was $1200 to heat. Got 2 woodstoves.

I only have wood heat, no back up of any kind.

2 years ago saved enough for an owb. Heats the house, shop, domestic hot water. We still fire up the livingroom woodstove once in a while, mainly just cause its nice, and we do some cooking on it. got some split pea soup on there now.

Oil prices will only go up. To be honest I hope they stay up. The only way we will find alternatives, is if there is money in alternatives. When oil is cheap, there isn't any money to be made in alternative fuels. When there is money to be made, Americans will find a way to make money at it.

Personally oil prices have little effect on me. Milk costs a little more, not enough for me to justify feeding a cow or goats all winter, at least not yet. I drive VERY little. My equiptment needs gas, but even that isn't too bad. If I'm using the chainsaws a lot, and one or more of the tractors, or back and forth into the woods with the Jeep, I might use 10 gallons a week. Most weeks less than 5.

stonykill · #**113** 01/06/08, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windy in Kansas

BINGO! You have the solution. People need to understand fuel savings is a great part of the key to getting by during higher energy costs.

Weatherization and super insulation are where we need to start. The old Rodale publications of New Shelter magazine had some great information in them. In one of the issues a feature was done that told of a builder in New York state that builds homes so tight and so well insulated that he doesn't even put furnaces in them. The heat from cooking, water heater, refrigerator, lamps, body heat, etc. provide all of the heating needs. As I recall, the homes he builds have R-40 insulation in the sidewalls and R-90 insulation in the ceilings.

The money saved from purchasing a furnace, ductwork, and installation pay for the additional insulation and weatherization. Of course the homes to require an air to air heat exchanger to bring in fresh air and to expel the stale humid air.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to never have a heating bill?

It wouldn't be easy to retrofit a house to such tightness for air infiltration nor to add so much insulation but doing what one can is a start.

One way to gain insulation is to build perimeter walls a few inches from existing walls to give a thermal break and then insulation the space between the two. Yes it would rob interior space. My local big box store now carries 2" X 3" lumber which would be ideal for such. Extending window jams would be a pain but could be done pretty easily with biscuit joinery. Relocating electrical boxes a few inches could also be a pain but doable for the ultimate gain.

Building a home correctly from the get go is something all builders should be required to do during these times of energy uncertainty. Yet 2" X 4" framed homes are going up by the thousands with few tubes of caulking even being used let alone several cases of it.

How many of us on these forums have any kind of solar assistance for heating water or air, or even use it for photovoltaics? No amount of complaining will do anything toward alleviating our annual energy needs, we need to get off our duffs and actually do something.

Ideally, you are right. Here, If I were to build new, zoning would force me to put in a heating system that I would never use, would force me to put in septic, even though I would prefer a sawdust or incinerating toilet, etc. I understand other states are better about this, but its only gotten worse here since Hillary came around too many years ago. You can't do anything "simple" or "logical" on a new build in NYS. Hillary has seen to that.

Some of us have done something and are trying to do more.

sidepasser · #**114** 01/06/08, 07:28 PM

I agree that one cannot do things the "simple" way in many places..like not having a septic tank or county/city sewer. Where I live (below Atlanta, GA), the electric company will not hook up the electric WITHOUT having a septic tank or other means of disposal of wastes (and that does not include a composting toilet)..so that means whether I would use it or not, I must have one.

Same for water - no electric unless I have an approved well or city/county water.

But on the other hand, I use Farm Bureau for insurance and have a wood stove, I have no other source of heat. I may end up putting in central heat and air though as I am getting older and may not be able to keep cutting wood and logging it out with my draft horse.

BTW - as far as a draft horse goes..my Molly, bless her heart, has not had any vet bills as long as I have owned her other than routine ones for shots or when she foaled, I had the vet out to check her and the foal. Otherwise, her vet bills have been zero. I do have to keep her hooves trimmed, but that is 40. every six - eight weeks. I used to keep shoes on her but it got so expensive I let them go and am careful not to use her on gravel/rocks, mainly paths in the woods.

Grain costs - zero.

Hay though..a bale a day. at 8.00 per bale right now..very expensive. But if kept on grass (no drought) she costs me zero for hay except during the winter.

maybe if I had a smaller draft (Molly is 18 hands, 2,000 lbs.) I could get by with less cost for hay, but then again, I couldn't log out the size of trees that I do.

Give and take..there is maintenance issues for tractors as well.

I haven't had any source of heat since I built this place back in 1991 (tornado took out my original home and barn in March of 91..so I began building back in the fall)..but as one ages, it gets a bit harder to cope with the heat and the cold.

Just a thought for those that only heat with wood..what do you do when you can no longer cut/stack/haul out the wood? Hire someone? Buy your wood? Seems a waste to me when I have over 20 acres of woods.

I am wondering as we now have to carry in wood for my Mom as she isn't able to carry it in to the house, much less cut it and stack it. Perhaps we should consider old age too, not just when we are young and full of #### and vinegar - lol...

Freeholder · #**115** 01/06/08, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidepasser

I agree that one cannot do things the "simple" way in many places..like not having a septic tank or county/city sewer. Where I live (below Atlanta, GA), the electric company will not hook up the electric WITHOUT having a septic tank or other means of disposal of wastes (and that does not include a composting toilet)..so that means whether I would use it or not, I must have one.

Same for water - no electric unless I have an approved well or city/county water.

But on the other hand, I use Farm Bureau for insurance and have a wood stove, I have no other source of heat. I may end up putting in central heat and air though as I am getting older and may not be able to keep cutting wood and logging it out with my draft horse.

BTW - as far as a draft horse goes..my Molly, bless her heart, has not had any vet bills as long as I have owned her other than routine ones for shots or when she foaled, I had the vet out to check her and the foal. Otherwise, her vet bills have been zero. I do have to keep her hooves trimmed, but that is 40. every six - eight weeks. I used to keep shoes on her but it got so expensive I let them go and am careful not to use her on gravel/rocks, mainly paths in the woods.

Grain costs - zero.

Hay though..a bale a day. at 8.00 per bale right now..very expensive. But if kept on grass (no drought) she costs me zero for hay except during the winter.

maybe if I had a smaller draft (Molly is 18 hands, 2,000 lbs.) I could get by with less cost for hay, but then again, I couldn't log out the size of trees that I do.

Give and take..there is maintenance issues for tractors as well.

I haven't had any source of heat since I built this place back in 1991 (tornado took out my original home and barn in March of 91..so I began building back in the fall)..but as one ages, it gets a bit harder to cope with the heat and the cold.

Just a thought for those that only heat with wood..what do you do when you can no longer cut/stack/haul out the wood? Hire someone? Buy your wood? Seems a waste to me when I have over 20 acres of woods.

I am wondering as we now have to carry in wood for my Mom as she isn't able to carry it in to the house, much less cut it and stack it. Perhaps we should consider old age too, not just when we are young and full of #### and vinegar - lol...

I don't know if I'll ever be able to do it or not, but my plan is to build a small, tight house with a rocket stove or a masonry wood stove in it. Either of these would burn twigs and branches, enabling me to continue using wood heat as long as I was able to get out into the woods to collect them. If I stay as healthy as my grandmother for as long as she has, I would still be able to manage that system into my nineties.

Kathleen

kasilofhome · #**116** 01/06/08, 09:22 PM

Having to have spent much of Alaskan winters with out heat due to cost. Yes, more clothes help. Going out to public places with heat helps. The best thing was a wood stove made by 14 year old boy who is now 21, installed the end of Oct 06 and completed in Nov or 07.

Dh can not cut wood and we have lots of it. So, inallowing a man to cut wood to sell we get wood.

We are blessed that this area is a place were if you do all that you can for yourself and still need help from someone in the area help will come your way. We, as a group look to what we can do to help others. We are very rural and face being cut off from the world for periods of time due to avalances, wildfires and earthquakes--and volcanoes. At this moment 4 families are working together to insure
that one family has wood (they have fish and poultry and eggs)
that one family has gas and food (they have health man in the house)
that one family get a cabin build - it is roughed in -fire gutted home (they have time)
that one family has child care - due to medical needs adult have to be gone (they have money)
Only we could not make it together we are a protected, poor, well feed, warm and happy bunch. We keep adding more families to our list

I believe that since in the old days of homesteading families were larger and today families are smaller that in forming working communities is a better was to get all the work needed to make it.

sidepasser · #**117** 01/07/08, 06:37 AM

Perhaps by forming communities it would be more feasible when one ages. Like myself, I work off the farm for insurance and cash to pay for the kid's expenses for college and he works as well (has since age 10 cutting grass, etc.). All his money went in the bank for college and I have been saving since he was little and we still will not have enough. We are "hoping" for grants, but now he is looking into the Ga. National Guard as well for the experience as well as the college money.

You do what you have to do. Unfortunately it seems that if a community were to work, it would need to be somewhere other than where I live. No one in my immediate area practices any type of homesteading..the closest they get is to grill out during the summer - lol..

I do believe surburbia has caught up with me..only took 20 years to do it..and I have moved twice to escape the urban/suburban areas.

So I would need to move again to once more, a more rural area..unfortunately it would need to be in an area where there are probably few jobs as land has gotten so expensive and I never want another mortgage again in life. I suppose a planned community would be hard to do as well, heck folks here can't agree on too much, I don't know how one would start a planned homesteading community - though there probably are some out there.

My kids have NO plans to ever live on a farm (one daughter has 10 acres but they do not want any animals - they do raise a huge garden every year. The other daughter lives in a subdivision and prefers it. My son will inherit my mom's place and he MIGHT have some cows, but will probably hire someone to look after them, etc. as he has little desire to be tied down as young as he is right now)..so there goes the "family" idea.

I really have no answers, will continue looking though into self sufficiency as I get older and want to have less reliance on the gas/electric - I live in the south and am thinking solar would be a great thing down here..heck all we have is sun in varying degrees of heat.

The main thing down here is to stay cooler rather than worrying so much about heat - today will be 72 degrees - that is rather warm for January. July it likely will be close to 100 though..and on old folks, that is hard.

Wonder how solar ac would work?

Randy Rooster · #**118** 01/07/08, 07:21 AM

I have relatives who live in New York State who installed one of the new coal burning stoves. They say it is MUCH cheaper to heat their house than oil or gas or electric and not nearly as much work as a wood stove.

susieM · #**119** 01/07/08, 07:29 AM

If y'all are gonna argue, would you please be so kind as to stop posting entire quotes.....I'm getting dizzy and confused and it's hard to keep up.

stonykill · #**120** 01/07/08, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susieM

If y'all are gonna argue, would you please be so kind as to stop posting entire quotes.....I'm getting dizzy and confused and it's hard to keep up.

you gotta quote, to make your point. Wait....did I just quote you? :baby04: