Cattlemen..."Serious" advice needed

Jim S. · #21 11/28/07, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilbur

I don't own any cattle and never have (yet being the hopeful word there

) so this may be a foolish idea but can you keep some of your herd with the program you have and then lease some of the land as well? What I am implying/asking is if your whole herd is set up for fall or spring calving are you putting all your eggs in that one basket by hoping conditions work out AND the market is primed for the exact time you have calves/cows for market? It might be a way of diversifying your risk so that you don't find yourself in a spot where all your money will come from calves for sale when prices are down or having to re-stock when all the prices are high? Is there some other way to spread your risk around- while it won't be as profitable as hitting that perfect time when prices are high AND you have calves/cattle for sale, it limits your downside risk of being upside down in that scenario also. And with debt service to cover, having a less volatile stream of income may be more important than hoping you hit the cycle just perfectly.

If this is not suitable or the cash flows won't work sorry- just something I was thinking of as I read the responses. Good luck.

There are lots of smaller farmers here who just run the bull with the cows and calve all year around. That is not a smart idea, in my book. You can't manage your feedstuffs at best efficiency that way (preggers cows need different, more expensive stuff than dry cows), you are constantly having to be on guard for calves coming and any potential calving problems, your costs in raising and transporting calves to market continuously are higher. So labor costs are higher.

The cattle biz, as are all ag endeavors, is a low return on investment deal. Low ROI means that you have to focus on minimizing costs as much as possible, so it can't be an adequate upside market-driven enterprise. Lots of folks have lost their keisters that way. Calving is done in seasons because it is more economical. The tighter the calving season, first to last, the more economically the operation can be run. If you fall calve, you are out of cycle with the norm, which is spring calves, so you're selling when the population numbers are low/prices higher and raising them when numbers are high/prices lower.

You could split in two, to a spring and fall calf crop. But that doubles your work, and the spring calves will hit the market at high tide for populations.

I pretty much fooled with all those, and fall was best. Fooled with red/black, too, and black is best. Still, in my opinion, the overall idea should be to be at a production cost that is sustainable on the middle to lower range of calf prices. You then are taking the money when it is there on the highs, but not going into the red on most lows. Because the market alsways has annual highs and lows that are predictable, even when the overall year-to-year price trends are declining. It's about getting the most you can for your product at the time, and not letting go of your pennies to make your product until you absolutely need to do it.

agmantoo · #22 11/28/07, 04:46 PM

Jim S, I am going to have to disagree with you in some of the above response. I calve year around and I find lots of benefits, particularly with the profit. Feed lots require replacement calves throughout the year. I send calves to market not less than 4 times per year. When I row cropped I learned that the prices were typically the lowest at harvest and I think the same thing applies to calves that are flooded onto the markets due to Spring and Fall calves from many producers weaning at nearly the same time resulting in a buyers market. By selling throughout the year I may never get the high nor do I get the low. I get an average. I also have cash flow throughout the year. My cattle in normal years get all their feed requirements from grass. There is no need to feed the right brood stock expensive grain.

I feed no hay in non drought years and I have no hired help. The work, what there is of it, is distributed over the year. I am a low cost producer and I make some profit even in bad years and I have staying power due to my low input costs. I do the most simple things to keep my costs low, cattle are matched to my forage, no hay baling, very little tractor use, no payroll, no vet, no truck and trailer for transport to market, etc. I buy some wormer, castrating bands and mineral salt. In non drought years very little if anything else is purchased

I will agree that black is best due to the Angus promotions at the meat counter to the housewife.

Jennifer L. · #23 11/28/07, 05:22 PM

I would never sell a bred cow that's only 12-13 yo! At least, if you are talking beef cows. Dairy cows aren't going to be doing much for you at that age, but even then if they'll breed back, they stick around (I don't have many of that age). A bred cow is money in the pocket. A cow sold for canner/cutter is not worth much of anything.

My neighbor has had Angus for years and about five years ago he finally started selling off the old girls---MANY OF THESE COWS WERE IN THEIR 20's. He sold them off when they wouldn't breed back. These cows were ten years older than the ones you are thinking about selling. Sure, most of your cows wouldn't make it that old, but a good percentage of them will calve several more times. Keep them!

Jennifer

MTplainsman · #24 11/28/07, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheribelle

Joel, did you expect these cows to bring better than canner prices when you started this plan? Just curious.

You bet your sweet hiney I did! Figured I could get a couple calf crops out of them, and sell them off bred, before they turned rough, for a couple hundred more than the average is now.

shelljo, leasing out your grass in this country is a "bad" idea! For what you can get for your cash lease, you can be happy if it will cover your taxes, and nothing more. Leasing out the grass for profit in this area is a stale idea...

...please look into the lease info though, as I am curious as to how he works it. Thanks

MTplainsman · #25 11/28/07, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim S.

You might as well start on a retention and culling program. Keep the best, sell the rest. Get your herd in a rotation scheme where you have heifers coming up to replace older cows as they head to the sale barn. The harder you are on them as far as culling standards, the nicer your herd will look 3 years from now. So cutting 65 cows out can actually improve your herd down the road, provided you sit down and make up a list of reasons for culling and goals for your herd conformation. Stick to your list, and make them work to stay.

There are those who will insist that you cannot economically raise your own replacements. Ignore them. It can be done cheaper than buying, if you manage your costs. Grass in the pasture is free energy for growth.

I started out just the same way you did, with older cows. Retain your nicest heifers, sell your very oldest cows and all steers/bull calves, keep your youngest of the old cows for another calving season, then save their best heifers. Then you will have a stepped rotation started in your herd.

I don't know how many bulls you run, but if you want the benefits of purebred without the pricetag, get on what I call a "ladder breeding" program. The best of your F1 females go to a second bull for the F2 crop. The best F2 females go back to the same bull as the F1s had. And so on, back and forth. You are essentially line-breeding in the traits of the bulls used, so if you choose complimentary bulls it works well. This is a closed-herd system until you reach the limits of homozygosity, and then you can swap in new bulls to release all that pent-up potential again in heterosis.

Here's another possible management route. I set my herd up for fall calving (which might work good for you, since springs out your way can be brutal). Anyhow, by fall calving, I was able to get with another farmer and use his bulls. I would overwinter young bulls and feed them up. I would get the winter service, he would get the weight gain. He would then use those bulls on his spring-season cows, or sell them. It's a good trade. Plus, your fall-born calves will be ready in counter-cycle to the market, bringing you a seasonal premium in most years at the sale barn.

It is hard to work out of cattle debt, but try to do so as quickly as you can. The market is good now, but it is still a commodity cycle thing, no matter how confident folks are that we have escaped that basic cycle. They say that at every peak. But I have sold some nice calves before at 33 cents in a bottom, so I know for a fact what goes up will come down. You don't want to be carrying a big debt load when it does, and wind up upside down to cattle prices.

It is true about tax relief for drought, and I'd take advantage of it in every way you can. You can actually even pause in farming and carry over to a future better year. Get with your tax guy. If you don't have a tax guy, get one who is intimately familiar with farm and ranch tax law. Best money you'll ever spend, trust me. I consider mine almost a business partner.

Jim, your pretty sharp on this topic for a "goat herder" ...I kid you

I hear straight out what you are saying, I think it holds a lot of water. However, retaining replacements at this point in time may not be economically feasable for me, now that other non-related expenses have reared thier ugly heads. I may be able to keep back nearly 30 heifers though, if I play my cards right. I do know that buying replacement cows would about kill me off at this point in time, "unless" I get a "beginning farmer" loan through the FSA.

Though I have never delt with "line-breeding" of any sort, I think it would be to an advantage if one were to carefully execute such a plan. I wonder though, at which point do you realize the end of effectiveness for homozygosity? At which point do you add the fresh blood? Can a breeder get himself into trouble with over or under-active traits in this way? I am curious to this way of breeding.

Fall calving... NO... not even an option to remotely concider in this country. Our winters can set in hard any time in October, and to be caught with newborns in such conditions, could spell the end of a entire calf crop. One cannot risk trying to calve or even get them through a winter in this contry. Our winters will hit -40 and lower at times, with winds that can kill anything with red blood. You need body weight and size to get a critter through our winters. This makes our calving options limited to spring. I calve in April in hopes to miss the horrible Spring storms we can get. Some winters it works, while others we may still get a whooping even at such a late month.

ksfarmer · #26 11/28/07, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelljo

My dad leases his ground to other ranchers with cattle. I think the steers he has on pasture right now, are contracted for either $15 a head, or $15 a lb. gain weight.

He told me, but I can't remember exactly. I know that sometimes he's taken a percentage of their gain, but now he says he likes just agreeing on a price per head, so I think he'll get $15 a head. I have no idea how long these cattle will be on his pature either. Maybe it's $15 a head per month? I can ask.

Gee, I felt more confident about an answer for you before I started typing it out!

Flint Hills pasture is going for around $15 per acre or higher for a 5 month grazing period. Probably figure 4 acres per stocker steer. Thus pasture for the summer will be closer to $60 per critter. A cow/calf pair will be higher,,maybe figure 7 acres, summer cost of $100+. Thats my part of Kansas anyway.

MTplainsman · #27 11/28/07, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Jim S, I am going to have to disagree with you in some of the above response. I calve year around and I find lots of benefits, particularly with the profit. Feed lots require replacement calves throughout the year. I send calves to market not less than 4 times per year. When I row cropped I learned that the prices were typically the lowest at harvest and I think the same thing applies to calves that are flooded onto the markets due to Spring and Fall calves from many producers weaning at nearly the same time resulting in a buyers market. By selling throughout the year I may never get the high nor do I get the low. I get an average. I also have cash flow throughout the year. My cattle in normal years get all their feed requirements from grass. There is no need to feed the right brood stock expensive grain.

I feed no hay in non drought years and I have no hired help. The work, what there is of it, is distributed over the year. I am a low cost producer and I make some profit even in bad years and I have staying power due to my low input costs. I do the most simple things to keep my costs low, cattle are matched to my forage, no hay baling, very little tractor use, no payroll, no vet, no truck and trailer for transport to market, etc. I buy some wormer, castrating bands and mineral salt. In non drought years very little if anything else is purchased

I will agree that black is best due to the Angus promotions at the meat counter to the housewife.

I must say, that I agree your sytem may be workable... anywhere a cattleman has options in marketing. Up here, we don't. We can't have calf crops periodically throughout our winters as explained above. The other reason would be... at the time of most calf crops ready for market, there be no buyer interest for the calves in hundreds of miles radius. In the fall when calf crops are expected up here, that when you get your weaned calf interest, not at any other time in the year. We are so far out of reach for year round markets here. You have to sell the time of year when everyone else does to, cause thats when the bidding competition is at our local markets. Sure you can sell calves at any time of year hear on the weekly sale day, and they "will" sell, but if out of season, and no competitors are up here, you could just as well give them away. Get the picture on "limited" now?

**Terri** · #28 11/28/07, 09:00 PM

I do not keep cattle, please consider the source.

*IF* you do not have enough cattle, can you fence off some land and have somebody cut it for hay on shares? A bale for him and a bale for you?

farminghandyman · #29 11/29/07, 09:47 AM

save your heifers or at least the top 50% of them (yes it will take another year to have as breading stock), then sell your open cows, and if have any walking dead one sell them before they die or make sure you can keep them feed well, if they have a calf, yes you may have to trade bulls ever few years, to keep your genies up, but you can up grade your heard quicker via one bull than buying a heard of fancy cows,

one year to same some on a bull, I asked my friend to save his best bull calf back and I would buy it from him for 20% more than the market price was, I got a good bull and he made some extra, for his trouble, and I saved a good chunk of money,

I feel out of my small heard that at least 10% of the calf crop would make some one very fine bulls or cows, (I usually keep my top heifers for replacements), If I buy bulls from a commercial bull breeder, I usually look for a bull that throws a smaller calf, and hardly ever have to pull one any more, MY dad bought bulls that had huge calves, and we would lose a few calves and somethings a cow or two ever year, and usually in the end little difference in the poundage of the yearlings.
once a person can get into the replacement mode one can keep a heard going, and not have to be spending much on the stock cows,

I have a friend (in WYO) and his plan is to buy a heard of XXX of cows, as bread heifers, and then calve them out and run them for about 8 to 10 years and then sell off that heard and buy a new lot, and start over.

so If you choose to sell off the portion of the herd you could take the proceeds and reinvest in to more cattle, that are younger, or bred heifers,