WWYD ethical question

The true facts are simple: You entered into an unwritten contract with this guy. For seven years he has treated you and your brave husband with total disdain while keeping NO part of his agreement. This jerk has revealed himself to be devoid of honor and likely does "the right thing " only when compelled. I betcha' he has mistreated other neighbors who would admire you for standing up to him. I wouldn't worry much about finding friendship with him because it cannot happen until respect and consideration go both ways. Good luck for your future there...Glen

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The more a man travels, acquires wisdom and learns about life, the more likely he is to marry a Country Girl.

You're going to live there, for years, I'm assuming, and he will be your neighbor--for all that time. I think its better to chalk it up to losses, this years crop included, so you can build and live in the area without problems from the start.
Its not only him you're taking a chance on making him mad--its all your other neighbors too. Want to live there like that??

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In Life, We Weep at the thought of Death'
Who Knows, Perhaps in Death,
We Weep at the though of Life.

Well. There sure is a lot of hatred for farmers on this board (Not from the OP....). I've noticed that over the years.

It sure would help to know about where you are located to speculate on the land rent, bushels raised, & worth of the corn. If you mentioned where you are located, I missed it.

I grew up on a farm, worked on it since I was 8. All my friends & neighbors were on farms. It's a way of life. 'Everyone' knows how farming works because it's so simple - everyone farms, don't they????

So, if someone asked me when a corn crop is harvested - that would be a funny question! You harvest it when it is ripe. Here in MN, very rarely in September, generally in mid October, one year it was February before I could get a field out. It gets harvested when it is ready - I'm not really in full control of that. Just like all of your gardens. You can't 'demand' someone harvest their watermelons in May - there ain't any melons to harvest fer crying out loud!

So, if I were asked that question - as a farmer - I would take it as a joke. Anyone living out in the country should certainly 'know' the answer.

If he makes corn silage for his cattle, it _could_ be harvested in the 2nd half of August or beginning of September 'here'. But transportation of silage is much more costly than combining the grain - so you could really change his ecconomics you force him to do silage instead of grain. But it is an option....

I'd ask him about the use of 'Atrazine' as weed control. This has a longer term effect on the soil to kill off grasses. If he plants a cover crop of rye then likely it is not going to be a problem, but I would ask. Frankly, if he does notill & plants a cover crop, you got a pretty good neigbor there, does his job well. Ignore the un-informed around here that just like to bash....

As I said earlier, 'here' land rents can be pretty high. But, in Ky, Pa, Tn, other parts of the country, many times small plots of land are farmed out for free as you have ended up doing. This keeps the weeds down; it keeps you elegable for property tax breaks (you did look into that didn't you????); long distances & small field size make farming the land barely break even without thinking of the land rent. It is common in some areas to just allow the plot to be farmed for free. Or at most $25 an acre. Got trees all around the edge, the outer 4-10 rows typically don't yeild well, waste money on those little plots... Was the soil low in quality, he mighta built it up with a lot of fertilizer to good levels. Lot of things.

So..... If something was said at the end of your conversation with the farmer, like you were just happy the land was being used, and glad the weeds were being kept down.....

He might have gotten the wrong idea that he wasn't really expected to pay the little bit of rent - depending on what words you gave him..... If you never mentioned it again to him in 7 years - surely that would be the assumption on his part! I'd be happy with that deal, & not bother you on it for sure! I really can't blame him for that.

Notill corn is still farmed in rows. Hills disappeared back in the '80s, but corn is still always in rows. Can't harvest it if it isn't in rows.

Notill corn Costs $44 an acre for seed; $20 for weed control; fuel is 3 gallons x $3 is $9 an acre; planter costs are $10, combine is $21, and fertilizer went crazy last year to $70 an acre. Unreal. (It is up _another_ 33% for 2008 crop....) He might have put down lime, or needed extra P&K at one time to condition your soils. Drying down the corn costs a lot these days, can easly have $30 an acre in LP cost for that. (Harvesting early will drive that cost up - harvesting later will lower it. Forcing him to harvest early will cost him a bit....)

So, he is _not_ making money hand over fist on your 12 acres. He has $200+ an acre invested. Small fields rarely hit top yeilds, if your corn is already turning brown you are not in a top yeilding state... If he gets 120 bu an acre, would that be a good guess? Corn typically beings $1.70 to $2.25 for me at the farm. This year is unusual that I can get $3 a bu, possibly more if I commit to selling early.

In a typical year (the past 6 for him?), he might get $240 gross an acre return for that $200 he invested in the crop - or make a total of $40 an acre. Not much left to share with you..... _This_ year with the higher price of corn, he might gross $360 an acre, or make $120. Unless you are in a dry area & yeilds are down.....

Farming is risky, & the fellow could be spending $2400 on your little plot to try to make $500 to $1500 profit. If the weather cooperated all 7 years....

Oh, the govt subsidies.... If your land is entered into the farm program, you would know about it. He would need paperwork for that from you. He would need a signed lease. Without writing a book, he would get $20-30 an acre out of the deal. But, you would know about it. Since your land isn't in the program, it is worth less to rent for farming.....

So, this is how farming works. Big bucks, small returns, lots of risk. Despite the attitudes here from others.

I am _totally_ guessing on the possible yield in your area - wherever you are - and that makes the difference between land that rents for free or rents for $200 an acre. 'Here' they hope for 200 bu an acre; in parts of Illinois they hope for 240bu an acre, and in Tennesse they hope for 100. All the other costs stay pretty much the same, so expected yield will change the expected rent.

My sister & brother in law bought a place with 5 acres of farm land near me. I farm it for them. This has been a real eye opener for me. The expectation and assumptions on both sides are _real_ different. And that is within family, my sis grew up on the farm, BiL likes farms & how they operate. Yet, the expectations & demands they have are silly, and they likely think of me the same. Farming is not a factory job you punch in & punch out, or move schedules around to match a whim. It is a year long commitment, and it gets harvested when it is ripe. Just how it is. There is _no_ deadline on a calander!!!!! That still strikes me as just a hoot! But - I don't mean I am making fun of you - just the whole line of communication and expectations and so on. You & the farmer didn't communicate well - I think neither of you understood what the other was talking about!

I need to drive my farm equipment 6 miles to thier place. I figure I spend $75 a year on fuel, tire wear, etc. just getting there. Often I spend more time on the road than actually working their land. That is why these small plots are never worth as much to rent out.

So, what to do:

I think you fumbled the ball by not following up on the land rent 6.5 years ago. None of us were there so we don't know what was said by whom. I suspect the 2 of you did not understand each other, or what the other side really meant. City vs farm, it's 2 different languages & things weren't clear. You seem fine with that, and good for you. No problem.

You can't hurry up a crop. It gets ripe when it gets ripe.

If you force him off the land before it's ripe, you are taking the whole year's worth of income. It is possible he contracted his corn - already sold for a price - and he will get penalized for not having enough corn to deliver. This would really upset him.

You have a history of letting him rent the land for free. Even if that wasn't what you intended, that is now the history.

Farm law tends to protect the crop for the farmer who grew it. If push came to shove, he could demand you are responsible for wrecking his crop. Same rental deal you've had for 7 years, crop is 100% his, you wreck it.... Law would often be on his side. (I'm no lawyer - just how it seems to me in this area.) I doubt he would bother following up on that, but - in the neighborhood you would clearly have a reputation of being in the wrong, & not someone to trust.

Most farmers have an attachment to their crops. It's not just a paycheck, or punchin punchout at the factory. Over the year, there is a tending to the crop, help it grow, make it work out. There is an emotional bond to what a farmer grows.

Since you want to be good neighbors for a long time - be careful how you push that bond he would have to the cornfield. It is real hard to put that into words. But - it is there. When my BiL bushhogs his paths & runs over some of 'my' corn or beans on their place - it is hard for me. The dollar amount is maybe $5. But it pains me to see the damage to the good crop........

Be careful on that. It is deeper than I can explain in words.

You have an unusual deal because of the free rent. I believe there were some misunderstanding with no followup over the years.

The crop just won't respond to overtime requests, nor contractor pressure, etc. It will get ripe when it does. You can ask the fellow to try to get to that field first, & so forth. But - destroying it, or setting some calander date & exepecting that to matter to a corn field - just is going to seem real odd to the neighborhood.

Farming doesn't work that way.

Don't know that I helped any. Much of your problems are from a 'long story' and we need to guess at a lot of details, so we are all over the place depending on how we are guessing. You seem to have a good attitude; just not so good with the business & expectations part of it all. I can understand your enthusiasm to get going with your own plans.

--->Paul

I think I would consult with a good land lawyer IN YOUR AREA as soon as possible! best wishes! (I would think the fact that he hasn't paid ANYTHING would be in your favor!)

I didnt read all the replies...

..but I just want to say that yall sound like the kind of considerate people that will make good neighbors.

You want to do the right thing, and not damage your relationship with this guy even if you are shortchanged. And I commend you for that!

Sorry, cant give you any advice, other than to say you have the right attitude.

Don't know where your 12 acres is but here I have to bushhog twice a year to keep it from growing up and incase of wild fire. If I had to pay it would cost 30 dollars a year to get it done and that was befroe fuel went up. But I get to keep up a 22,000 dollar tractor and get to buy fuel so it come s out about the same. I would figure he saved you at least 300 dollars a year. As for the corn he raised in a perfect world. Seldom does it make that many bushels and the cost can and usually is about half or better plus the time and labor. Farming is not for the lazy or faint of heart.
You did all right and around here 12 acres is not enough to fool with trying to raise anything on if you are a person farming for a living. About 40 is the smallest anyone here wants to fool with.
Call him and ask when he will be done and then get on with your dream. Good neighbors are gold and you are the new comers and the neighbors have been there probably all their lives and for generations. Good luck and enjoy.

Balance. Don't be unreasonable, but don't be a doormat either!
If you let him walk all over you, that will be resentment you will carry for a long long time. It will eat at you over the years!

You have a contract or you don't. There is no picking and choosing what the rules of this unspecified contract should be.
Either there is a contract and he owes you, or there isn't, and he has no claim to the crop.

I would give him options.
If he would like to "extend" the time beyond August, which
he has already verbally agreed to - then tell him you expect a rental payment for this year. (Keep the request for back rent in your pocket until you see if he is willing to be "neighborly").

If he gets it out as promised, you call it even, take your lumps and move on.

Let him make the choice.


Paul, paleez! A farmer with no clue what month to expect a harvest?!
Maybe there is a reason some of 'em can't make money - after all....

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Hut on the Hill Farm
http://www.hutonthehill.org

The farmer can take the corn off in August to make silage. No need to wait until October. Especially if it is already damage by lack of rain. Yes it might be worth more to him in October but it better for you if he takes it off as silage.

I would ask him to plow/disc the corn stuble as well, to prepare a seed bed for your crop of grass. You might even offer to hire him to drill grass seed.

Just my thoughts...

I think Ranger's post was spot on. I don't thing the OP has any lingering resentment that they did not collect rent all these years, and some of the responses are trying to drum up that resentment.

I think that you should wait till he harvests (whatever time he needs to do it) but it wouldn't hurt to let him know you are ready to get to work, so the soonest he can do it would be appreciated.

If you had been collecting rent for taxes all these years, you would have no question about letting him finish out this crop, right? So, who's fault was it that you didn't follow up on the rent? I think you now have an "understanding" that there is no rent and that he is doing you a favor by maintianing your land. I think he has put value back into your land, not taken anything away from you. I don't know how much your taxes are...I hope not too much for farm land with no development.

I would not even bring up the issue of rent for the land this year, as you have let it go for so long, it's assumed that it's not required. That was your fault.

I know how you must be champing at the bit...I too had to wait for a tenant to move out after I bought my property (only 30 days) and it just about killed me, but that was a rental agreement with the previous owner and he had 30 days eviction...so I had to honor it. It can be hard, but if you could try to adjust your mindset so you accept that you just have to wait till the corn is harvested, and not let it get you worked up that you are having to wait, it will be easier. It's totally up to you to control how you feel and react. Perhaps, if he normally plants a fall crop of rye, you could ask him to do that for you, so most of the land is crop covered and only the part you need access to will be torn up by construction. That way the land is covered and not going to weed and brush while you are busy with other projects.

I don't think you have the right to force him to harvest his corn before it's ready, inspite of his "estimate" of when it will be ready. But, I too immediately wanted to jump on the band wagon of "oh how unfair, he never paid the rent"...but after reading Ramblers post, I think you are probably better not making an issue of it.

I supsect he is going to be a good neighbor to you, if you continue to be a good neighbor to him. I am not at all sure he was trying to take advantage of you. I think it's wrong to assume that just based on what's been posted in this thread.

I would call him again. I would get him to state he can harvest by the end of this month. I would write everything down. Then I would write him a letter. In that letter I would thank him for maintaining the land for the past several years. I would put a reminder in that letter of your conversation on the date you spoke with him. I would then in the letter tell him that you will be moving onto the land one week after the date he said the crops would be off. If his crops aren't off by the day you move tell him you will try to do minimum damage to the crop. But, make sure he knows you will be moving in on a specific day no matter what.

Then get the letter notarized, send it certified mail with a return reciept.

For all these years he has raised crops and profited from the land use without paying for the priveledge. If he loses this crop then it's his problem. In any other situation you would be kicking a tennant out. If he was an honorable person he would have contacted you and asked how much rent he owed you the first year. He is not honorable, he is walking all over you. Don't think for a minute he will be a good neighbor, he won't. He's already proven that.

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I doubt he would consider it being "hardnosed" if he's a "big farmer" Its simply business. He owes YOU, and if HE is a "good neighbor" he will pay you or be willing to work with you.

If he treats others in the community the way he has dealt with you, then you may find that even though he's FROM there, he may not be LIKED there.

If you intend to use it as pasture this Winter, its getting near time to plant it.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

For some reason I keep mulling this over.
I changed my mind a bit about what I said before.

He made an agreement with you to take the crop off in August.
You now have a reasonable expectation to move on with your plans based on his statement.

This news about October seems to be hearsay, and until he asks to extend his time, it's irrelevant. I would move ahead with my plans.
If he does come you at the last minute and wants to change his mind, then
you can spell out how his change is inconveniencing you.

I think a reasonable person would understand that, farmer or not.

You've given him free use of land for years. If he has to take a loss on
one crop one time, he still made out in the long run.

IF he knew the intent was to rent, and he didn't pay anything, then each year that he continued to plant without first checking with you was
risky. He was betting his investment on an assumption.
Who's responsibility is it to look out for his investments and his interests?
Yours? No. He should have taken the initiative to come to you.
It's odd that he didn't. ONe explanation could be that he hoped that by keeping his mouth shut he'd continue to get something for nothing.


To assume he "improved" your land by planting corn is a stretch. Go check the condition of your soil before you just buy into that idea. He might have taken care of it, or he might have depleted it horribly.

You have to take some of the blame here, but not all of it.

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Hut on the Hill Farm
http://www.hutonthehill.org

I think "Rambler" and "Naturewoman" make more sense than any others here. Read their posts carefully.'
As for the comments about making him cut the corn as silage: He may not even feed silage or have the equipment to do that, not all farmers do.
I repeat: "Communicate with the man"! If you can get him to agree to work the ground to get it ready to sow grass, then, I would say, he is indeed a good neighbor to have.

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* I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one. .*-

Around here, many people allow local farmers to cut hay for free. Those that want money, don't get the hay cut and in a very few years it turns to a useless brushy mess. Some years there isn't much market for the hay, but the farmer still cuts the field and takes the loss. Other times there is a need for the hay and the farmer profits. There is a lot of investment in equipment, seed, fertilizer and especially labor. I doubt he's making out good on your tiny field. He had every indication that you were going to let him use it on into the future. I think you have the right to use your land, however, once he has a crop planted on it you shouldn't think about preventing him from harvesting it in due time. You should let him know that after the corn is off, you won't need/want him to farm that field. But next summer when the field is a mass of weeds don't think your neighbor will come running to get a crop put in. Until you are prepared to manage the field, why not simply let him farm it? Let this be a lesson, get it in writing and keep lines of communication open.

"Oh hi neighbor, we were just meeting with the contractor out at our property and just thought we'd drop by. Here's some jelly I made, I figured if we're to move out here I better get into the habit of canning and making jams and jellies. Let me know what you think of it, if you like it I can always bring over a jar once we've moved in.

Oh by the way, when we were talking to the contractor, we told him what you told us about being done with the field by the end of August. (Which is just around the corner now, wow how this growing season has flown by!) Was last year's harvest on my property just as good looking as this years? I bet it brought in bushels, its really nice looking, you clearly are a successful farmer that's for sure. Anyway, he didn't think you'd have the land harvested by the time you thought you would, so it was suggested that with his busy schedule and us telling him weeks or months ago what you had told us, that we go ahead and start, ..taking out just exactly what is needed to get our place underway. We'll gladly reimburse what you're out as I just don't think that would be neighborly to not honor our original agreement.

Now let's see, I think if I recall right we said you could farm our acreage and we thought what we would get back should have covered at least part of our taxes on the property. Is that how you remember it? Was I supposed to present you with some sort of paperwork or something so you could show it as a payment on your farm taxes or something? You know, we really don't know that much about how the "farmers law" thing really works, I was hoping you'd be able to explain to us just how that works?

I see, well since we are just moving out here, we really don't know how this sort of thing really works, I know country folks are noting for being nice and neighborly and always willing to lend a fellow neighbor a hand, I just don't think there's too many of them out there that will let someone farm their acreage for free for several years/growing seasons. I'm sure you'll understand, since we went off your word, that you would have my land cleared of harvest by the end of the month, we already are lined up with our contractor to start. So, just figure out what the true loss is to the harvest that we're about to take out, and we can subtract that from what you owe us for the past crops and we can drop by and settle up sometime. Hey! I'm gonna try my hand at strawberry preserves, maybe I'll just drop by a jar when we stop by for our check.

I guess since this will become our main residence will we need to contact the Farm Bureau and/or the Dept. of Ag to get all of the paperwork straightened out? I'm looking forward to being good neighbors with you, I've heard such nice things from some of our other neighbors/contacts from looking into building out here. Boy this country air is just so fresh. Hey do you know exactly where our property lines meet? If not I guess I should call out a surveyor to get it right. If we plan on getting a horse or other livestock, I sure don't want them to ruin our friendship and trespass on your property, you've been so good to us that now that we are moving out here, I'd hate to jeopardize that friendship."

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A good dog may be hard to find, ...but a hard dog usually means it's been dead for a while

I read through these posts here and I've got a real concern about all the people who are pushing you to "get something" out of this guy. Granted he has used your land for several years, but like Rambler said, he's not making a huge profit on your twelve acres, probably just covering costs especially this year, and you have gained from having the field kept open so that when your ready to plant your pastures it will save you as much as you could have made in rent. Let the guy do what he has to do, my guess would be he will work with you as best he can, but like Rambler said, sometimes in farming things are just out of your hands.

I live in a farming community on, my dad farmed here and I farm, and I got to tell you if you go after this guy like some people are recommending it will cost you dearly in the future. Farmers are a different breed of cat and are typically pretty loyal (there are always exceptions to that rule) and will do just about anything for you if you treat them right, but wrong them and they will not be there for you. The day will come when you need someone to call for a hand and this guy could be pretty valuable to you then.

HE knows your going to be taking over the land, and my guess is if you tell him you will need pasture planted, and yes it will take equipment and time that you don't have, he'll be willing to help. Build the bridges now for the future and watch out for yourself in future dealings. You can seed pasture in the spring if it comes to that.

Besides that this guy will be a fountain of knowledge that you are going to need in the future. Don't throw that intangible value away for a few bucks. Your going into a whole different world, tread lightly but be aware. Ask questions, lots of questions of lots of people around your area, farmers love to visit (unless it's planting or harvest season and rain is coming) and are more than willing to share knowledge. Good luck.

First, thanks for all the input, it's appreciated!
Second, we didn't mention the "rent" thing as a way to get people stirred up, only to give history on where we are. We didn't want anyone to think we are behaving like spoiled brats and abusing a man who has paid us for the last 7 years! We consider that money a wash, maybe he made some money, maybe he didn't. We appreciate having clear fields to start out with. We would have appreciated him dropping us a line or giving us a call saying he made no money or whatever, but he didn't and we didn't hound him for it either, so here we are: A little aggravated at ourselves for not being aggressive and letting life (new babies, deployments and interceding war) here be more important than keeping up with what he was doing, and a little aggravated at him for not doing what we would do....hindsight is 20/20, we have our glasses on now!
Third, HE KNOWS WE ARE NOT FARMERS AND HAVE NO FARMING EXPERIENCE. We have told him this, he might not remember much, but I doubt he has forgotten that...
Fourth, our real question was "IS IT FAIR TO HOLD HIM TO HIS "NEW" CONTRACT ON REMOVING THE CORN?" We in no way prodded him, or suggested that he should have it removed by the end of August, that was HIS timeline, HIS estimation. We are not farmers we don't know anything about how long corn takes to dry or if he makes silage or anything of that nature, we are relying on his ability as a "professional" farmer to know when he will be able to harvest. We know getting ahold of him is difficult and he doesn't have a history of returning calls, he is busy and we are not "friends". We are not out to "get" him or ruin his crops, but we do feel like he should keep his end of the bargain. And, we don't feel it's unreasonable to expect that he should call us if he needs more time. It is not a joke that this man farms thousands of acres; he has a large operation and is busy. But, he also has our number and we feel like he should call us if times is running againest him.
We have a tractor and implements, so we don't have to worry about him doing things for us after his harvest is done. We won't be begging him to bush-hog or plant for us. We might not ever be "friends", but we don't want to be enemies with him either.
We don't think we are unreasonable, we feel we have been considerate enough. If he needs more time, we are not opposed to that, but if he doesn't ask should we still wait because he assumes we know more about farming than we do?
We don't want to take this man to court, we feel like that kind of thing is a last resort and we are galaxies away from that. We just wondered if it was insane to enforce the new contract he made with us regarding the harvest of the corn!
Sorry to ramble and maybe even muddy the waters more!
If you feel we are pushovers, you are welcome to that opinion, but we believe in being neighborly and taking our "licks" when we are due them. We have learned a valuable lesson and won't repeat the mistake, but we don't feel like we have to punish him for our ignorance!
We will certainly keep you posted on how we are progressing.....we did drive the 45 minutes out there yesterday evening and the fields are still full of corn....

A general location would help....It is hard for this northern farmer to grasp corn being combined in August, that would be a full month too early 'here.'

If that is a normal time for corn harvest where you ae, it would be resonable to expect him to work on your field sooner rather than later & get it done by the end of the month as mentioned.

What can happen to him is weather - and logistics. If he knew at the beginning of the year you wanted the ground sooner, he could have planted an earlier maturing corn, just 5 days makes a difference. Now tho what was planted is what is growing.... He could end up harvesting his corn in order, & be 20 miles away from your field at the start of the harvest season. It will be a lot of cost to swing over to your field, harvest it, and then go back to the regular progression. Travel time to get the combine & truck back and forth is wasted harvesting time.... If we get a rainy spell (hurricane season seems to be poking up...) then sometimes harvest is delayed by 3-4 weeks, and one just can't do things in the order you want to harvest them - got to do what you can where you can.....

So, those are some problems that could crop up.

But you sound like a very reasonable person, and if you work with him on those kinds of unforseen things, given good weather & normal conditions things should work out fine.

Seems he has 2 weeks, so lots of time left?

--->Paul

Acck, I keep thinking our location comes up with the name! We are in southeastern NC, he has harvested as early as August before and as late as after Thanksgiving.

HI! Just wanted to let everyone know we drove out to the property Saturday afternoon to find it HAD been havested! YAY!!! We were out Saturday evening with Judith (tractor) pushing the "driveway" (using that term kind of loosely! ) and worked on that until 9:00. We went back early Sunday morning and did some more "roadwork" and bush hogging. My DH and oldest DS did all the tractor work and the littler kids and I started clearing some brush. We considered just moving into a tent, but since the kids return to school today we decided to wait a week or so! LOL Not that we are excited or anything! :baby04:

I am so glad being patient was it's own reward! Now all the things we need to do and want to do seem a bit overwhelming since they are no longer just "waiting" games! We will get them done, one at a time. We have decided that we need to really rework our "plan", what we want to have done in a week, month, 3 months, 6 months, year....that kind of thing....

We want to thank every one again for all the input, it was appreciated and discussed over dinner, breakfast and lunch!
This list and all the ideas and tips are frequent topics of conversation around here since joining and the older 2 kids really like reading here, too. There is so much information for all of us!