WWYD ethical question

The corn has to be at a certain level of dryness to be harvested. It's not just a willy nilly decision.

Talk to him, not to us.

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Lots of mistakes on your end up front. Your expectation that others will do as you do, of course, is No. 1. Never assume the motives of another. You're setting yourself up if you do.

If you entered into a verbal agreement, that is contract law in most states. But it is hard to prove, and will devolve into "he said, she said." No way I would lease land to anyone without written lease spelling out all the particulars.

But you are where you are now, having learned a hopefully valuable lesson. The motto you should go by in business is "Do unto others, or they will do unto you." Refusing a written lease or downplaying the need on his part would have given you a big warning right away of who you were dealing with, before you got into this.

I'm pretty strict about business practices. Just as good fences make good neighbors, so do good, written business agreements.

OK, all that said, I would strongly encourage you now to wait. You might try to do as much as you can while waiting for his harvest to occur. Corn harvest often has to do with moisture content, so he may be looking at a dry year and saying he can get it done earlier. Corn harvest where I live is in August. I would ask him again about it, so you have clarity, and so he is clear that you are trying to move onto the land ASAP. Ask if your land can be first on his harvest sked, or if he can cut the portion you need to get to first.

Two reasons why I say wait:

1.) The details of your original agreement are now muddled between the two of you, were they to be viewed by a disinterested third party. That's why I say WRITE IT DOWN next time, and have all sign it, and notarize it.

2.) Given the muddled details, if you push this, it will only further inflame the situation ad then it is YOUR reputaton that will suffer, as well as perhaps his. If he is "from here" and you are not, I guarantee you it is YOU who will suffer socially by pushing him, and especially so in the Southeast.

Bide your time, and mark it down as a lesson learned for all future business activities. I have learned the hard way, time and again, that a verbal deal is begging for the worst possible outcome, and the longer term that deal is, the badder the situation becomes.

That is especially true in the country, where there is often a huge disparity between those monied folks who own lots of land and big farms vs. those who do not. The latter group often gets the short end of "handshake" deals.

Patience is your best virtue now, but that does not mean you should just roll over for him. Make sure it is understood he is to hold up his end of the harvest statement. Give him a date as a deadline.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

this is a tough one. if he would cough up the back rent, i could see being totally on the side of the farmer. the corn needs to stand until it's dry and ready to harvest. no way it will happen in august.

on the other side of the coin, you have winter coming and need to get things done in a timely manner. you may be looking at waiting until 2008 to move forward if you have to wait until mid-october for the harvest. i wouldn't count on the harvest to occur before late september at the earliest.

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this message has probably been edited to correct typos, spelling errors and to improve grammar...

"All that is gold does not glitter..."

It is not uncommon here in NC to pay the rent after harvest. It is common that if the farmer turns the ground the beginning of the year the farmer is entitled to harvest the crop (this is a legal position). You could offer to buy the crop if you want the land prior to the crop being ready to harvest. I personally know where a lady had a small patch of popcorn located where an industrial plant was slated to be built. The buyer wanted the land early and took with him a check for the second payment (which was not due) for the property that was being bought (the land was sold on time payments). She refused to accept his check, without asking the amount. The check was for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Based on the fact that since the popcorn had not matured and she wanted to harvest same she declined. The developer asked her how much she typically made from the popcorn and she said a couple of hundred dollars. The developer rather than try to explain to her how much interest she could glean from the payment until the popcorn matured just reached into his pocket and gave her 2 hundred bucks. She was happy and he was elated as he left with his check in hand.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I would guess that most of the people who will be future neighbors for 5webbkids are farm oriented. Untill you fully understand what is the expected behavior I would tread carefully. They may think that maintaining the land, keeping weeds down and fencerows clear is adaquate compensation. Then again maybe this particular farmer is know for taking advantage of people. When you move into a new community, your future happiness will be greatly increased if you have a good relationship with neighbors.
As for the comment about Santa Claus government: that is another topic for another thread on another day.

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* I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one. .*-

well you agreed to let him use it for crops so it would be unreasonable for you to insist he ruin said crops before harvest so you can move...

when you agreed to this it went without saying, crops have a harvest time.

looks like you are going to have to sit and wait until he harvests regardless when that is, or else youll have a bad relationship with a new neighbor.

Because you haven't asserted your rights and this has been going on for several years you may return to find that your farmer 'tenant' has by law acquired title to your land via 'squatters rights'. You need to look this up for your state.

If you've paid the taxes on the land in some states that will give you a bit of protection from this ability to seize 'abandoned' land by working it.

Undoubtedly that was his overall intent with his actions all these years.

That's the point I was trying to make. I don't mean to sound unkind, I just can't imagine being in your situation. You'll live through it and learn, just like we all do.
We cash rent all our farmground, meaning the farmer pays us a set amount each year to use the ground. Because we are also friends, they let us in on what they are planting, how much fertilizer they use etc.
We also have a few smaller tracts that we have in CRP, a program that the gov pays us to keep the ground out of production. That income pays the taxes and bushhogging costs.
I wish you luck in your future plans!

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Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. :baby04:

Is it possible the corn is being grown for silage? If it is, it would come out much earlier. Does he also raise cattle? Our neighbor takes some out for silage around August.

We don't think anyone is being unkind! We appreciate all the information and suggestions, we are new and still trying to get a perspective from people who are where we want to be!
BTW, we aren't trying to malign the farmer, we understand that we are learning the hard way regarding the use of the land to this point. And we will never be in this position again.

We know crops have a cycle, just not exactly what that cycle is, that is why we asked him when HE would harvest. We never said "Oh, we want to be working on the property by September." We relied on his professional assessment of his crops to know when he would be harvesting.......if he said it would be anywhere from August to December, then we would just keep checking during that timeframe to see what the status was. HE IS THE ONE WHO GAVE US A TIME. What the question for us now is "Can he change the agreement, and if he wants to should we just let him?"

We are not looking for an excuse to barge in there or to be inconsiderate, just trying to find out what the "normal" reaction would be, if anyone else had been here before.
It seems to be that we should simply wait if the fields are still in corn. (Need a thumb twiddling smiley here! )

That is reading a lot into someone's motives when you don't know all the details of the past seven years. Getting tenancy by "squatter's rights" is not in the picture, I have no idea how you can say that that was the farmer's intent. They've already talked to him, the issue never arose.
To put your minds at ease, it is a very difficult process to claim someone else's property through supposed abandonment or longterm use. He didn't pay the taxes, he doesn't have a claim on it.

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If angels existed, they'd probably be considered big game. (Don Swain)

Home schooling.........not just for scary religious people anymore. Buffy

I think if it were mine Id call him and tell him that I wanted it harvested by the time you get ready to move there.

If he balks, I would remind him that he hasnt PAID you for all they years hes had it, but you will forgive that debt in exchange for the standing crop.

If youre going to use it for pasture anyway, you could also find a use for the corn.

If he's honest at all he should accept that deal

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I don't think that it is, the top part of the corn is already brown and my understanding of silage is it's green. He has a little bit of everything, hog houses, some cattle, chicken houses, fields of crops....he is a big farmer, not a little guy.

Thanks, we don't have the feeling he is trying to claim anything, and don't think he's a terrible guy, willing to exploite some newbies, yes, but trying to bulldoze our property rights, no.

We are hoping he will have it out by the specified time, and maybe return our phone call in the mean time. If not, we are worried about how being "hardnosed" would be recieved, as he has property abutting ours and he is "homegrown" and we are not.
We do want to be good neighbors and be well recieved, not thought of as "crazy".....ah, too late for that one!

Well now that you have established your reputation as an uninformed push over it is time to reverse that.

He says that he will have his harvest in by the end of August, fine. We all know that he means plus or minus 3 or 4 months, and we all know you are a pushover.

My suggestion is this ;
Send a certified letter to the rip off artist who is using your land. Tell him that the end of August for the completion of his harvest is fine. Let him know that you expect payment for the use of the land for this year and all previous years (good luck).

Let him know that you intend to bushog the entire acreage on Sept. 1, so hes being done at the end of August is fine.

Now follow through, bushog the property on Sept 1, no if, and , or buts. Just do it, or hire it done. No excuses, whining or other delays, just do it.

Then sue him for the past rent on the property (reasonable rent in your area) be sure to include the cost of bushoging your land, and any legal expenses.

Then after the matter is settled you might become friends, but it is always nice to have a level playing field.

Following Edcopp's advice will probably succede in seting your reputation in your new community as "Those crazy newcomers". Not to mention being sued for the value of the crop. I really believe things might be worked out to everyone's satisfaction if you were to visit the man and talk things out, rather than get your blood pressure all stirred up by reading all the wild speculation on this forum.

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* I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one. .*-

Hope I'm not being an alarmist here: We had a farmer in Tasmania who had about 15 acres on the other side of a stream running through his land. Because it wasn't easy for him to access it, he let two brothers use it for grazing their stock. Some 8 years later he wanted to sell his farm, and found that the brothers had claimed title to that part of his land that they had been using. They were successful in their claim, and the farmer lost out.

I have read in another forum that you have similar laws in the U.S., so I'd be asking for a few dollars in back rent to show that you were actually renting the land out, rather than just allowing someone the free use of it. I certainly wouldn't let him drag the time out any.

Edited to add: Sorry - Didn't see suburbanite's post and the follow-ups. Guess it's all been covered.

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BIDADISNDAT: Aiming to Live a Good Life of Near Self Sufficiency on a Permaculture Based Organic Home Farm

I'll go with live and learn. Some have suggested being hard-nosed and spiteful, I don't view that as being the best way to start off as neighbors. Let the man have the time he needs to harvest. If need be check with him on a weekly basis begining in Sept. until it is harvested. Is the entire property planted, preventing you from doing any work on the place? Now, if HE should start to get nasty then I'd start pulling out my big guns: 'where's my back rent' being the biggest gun in the holster. Good luck darlin.

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"Only the rocks [and really embarassing moments] live forever"

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands..." tick-tick-tick

I can't really offer any advise as to most of your situation but around here if a farmer practices "no till" agriculture then he usually hits the field with round-up before planting. This kills all the undesirables and then the seed is planted without tilling (hence the no till ) It's practiced around here a lot to conserve top soil.

Hope it all works out for you! I'm sure if you talk to him you'll be able to work things out.

(oh sorry to all that I've been AWOL for a while, my local service provider killed all our local numbers and we had to get satellite internet :-/)

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Jessica

Homestead / Nature Journal ~ A path is made by walking it ~