Laws against food storage??
 

I have been involved in a discussion about a USDA employee who visited an individual's home in the Pacific NW and began asking a lot of questions about the person's food storage practices & their raising of small livestock (chickens).

I would have sent the "USDA" employee on their way, with many questions of my own & said so in this discussion... and was then informed by another individual that there are US laws against the storage of more than 3 weeks worth of food... Here is a quote (pertinent info only):

"> There are a number of Federal Laws which "prohibit" the Storage of
> Food. If I remember correctly, it is a violation to store more than
> a three week supply. When I get a little more time, I will look for
> the laws and post them. I believe they are found in the United
> States Code Annotated."

I have never heard such a thing & I have been unable to find this law (as applied to private individuals). Am I missing something? Does anyone know of this law & where I can find it?

Sincerely,

Joyce Brandon

Just read an article in the Minneapolis Star/Tribune last week where the govt is going to spend millions on an ad campaign to encourage all of us to store away a 3-6 month supply of food, water, & items. To be prepared for different things.

Sounded like a joke - as far as the masses living in their rented appartments or paycheck-to-mouth & all - I know many here, & farmer types like myself probably have much of that covered already, at least to some degree. So, the millions will be wasted on convincing those that already have the issue covered, or those who can't do any of it anyhow......


But anyhow, that would fly in the face of what you are hearing?

--->Paul

My own state is encouraging folks to stockpile a years worth of food. Sounds like a rumor that started with a grain of truth.

Thanks!
 

That sure is contrary to the "law" isn't it?

Thank you for posting that information! I really appreciate it!

Sincerely,

Joyce Brandon

Once a teacher informed my daughter that she HAD to be doing school work each day for 6 hours....even though we homeschool. (Not true BTW) This is a prime example of someone spreading mis-information about a subject that one would think they were an expert in. Sound familar? God bless you and yours
Deb

Hears the Water -

Being a HSing mom myself, I'm use to folks (neighbors, MIL, strangeres, etc...) informing me of the educational "laws" and what I'm "required" to do. LOL! But this (food storage) is an area I felt very uncertain of. I just couldn't imagine someone trying to tell a family how much food they could store for their own use!

Thank you for your post!

Sincerely,

Joyce Brandon

I haven't looked up the real info, but it wouldn't surprise me. There were laws like this during WWII when many foods and other goods were rationed. It might not be illegal now, but if things get really wonky, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the government started "redistributing" our personal stores. In fact, if you're really paranoid, you might worry that is why they are currently telling us to store it, so they can take it later!

OK, I just had a tinfoil hat moment. :) But seriously, the reason this doesn't surprise me is that I recently learned about well taxes. I forget where -- Australia I think, maybe someone from there can verify -- you get your water from a well, you pay taxes on the water volume used just as if you were drawing city water. I mean, I thought if anything in life were free, water from the ground on your own property would be! If they can do this, making a law against how much food we can have in our pantries isn't far behind.

So if you do store food...do it quietly. :)

Yup!
 

I agree completely with the "do it quietly" mind set.... But in this case the Dept. of Ag was visiting all the homes in a neigborhood.

What would be the reason for that?

Anyhow - back to the original ?? If anyone has a link to that Minneapolis star/trib article please post it here... I have been hunting it, but can't find it!

Thanks again for all the input!

Sincerely,

Joyce Brandon

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1251718.html

Here ya go Joyce.

Tinknal -

Thank you so much! I owe you a nice package of deer sausage come this winter! Seriously - drop me an email.

You've made me feel far less a fool than I did a couple of hours ago.

Most Sincerley,

Joyce Brandon
(BTW - Twain is my favorite. Your sig is excellent)

LOL, thanks. Deer sausage is rather plentiful around here. :)

Are you getting the cicadas? I was thinking one could raise some killer poultry during that hatch.

Sadly (especially for my kids) we are in the empty space between broods III & XIII (http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/highlights/...calCicada.html) so unless we get some borderline stragglers this year or in 2014 we're going to be completely left out. But when we drove up to the QCA a couple of weeks ago we could hear the HUGE noise of the cicadas calling.

I lived in Columbia, MO in Spring 1985 and there was a HUGE periodical cicada hatch. I was only about 10, but I remmber it was amazing!

Well, even without all the extra bugs, our chickens are doing great - we have a lot of little grass hoppers hatching out due to the dry weather.

We've got 13 dual purpose hens... plenty of eggs and occasionally a nice little roasting hen. I'm also hoping to have some fryer rabbits this fall & goats next year... Plus my DH is a heck of a turkey hunter! But we process all of those ourselves.

I really do appreciate you posting that link. I would think (hope) our government would encourage long term preperation for hard times... And was very surprised at the idea it would be outlawed. Hopefully the info I've gleaned her will be helpful to others as well!

Thank you!

Joyce Brandon

If this sort of laws are real then half of Florida would be in trouble.
A lot of people including myself have a lot of stuff in case we get hit by another storm. Where I am we have been hit by 3 in the past 4 years. Each time you could but nothing from any place for at least a week and even then nothing that would have been cold as it all went bad.
Then you had the miles that is miles meaning more then one long lines to get the MRE, Water, Ice and Tarps that was handing out. One time the wife and I was in line for over 3 hours and it took them maybe 1 min to put a case of MRE 2 bags of ice and a case of water in our trunk.
We was lucky each time as we live about a mile from a hospital so they get the power and water back faster around here it seems. My brother and sister in law lives just a few miles from us and they had no power for 3 weeks. They got it back and had it on for 3 days and we got hit by another storm. That time they was without power for just over a month.
Have that stuff happen a few times and you to will have food and water stored that will last you a few weeks.

I can understand it if you live in a part of the country that is prone to natural disasters like hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. Otherwise, it sounds a lot like the old build-a-bomb-shelter-because-they-are-going-to-attack-us days before the collapse of communism.

I do store water because last year we had the most godawful drought here, had to buy drinking water and water to flush the toilet. This year, the well pump has been replaced so I can at least draw up my reserves here at home. Also have a filter system to help out. Would like to install a rain collection system, but don't have the $$$ for it. So anyway, water is my thing to store because of my local conditions.

I think it's good to have some food set by, but it just doesn't work for everybody, and for the govt. to start these programs just makes a lot of people afraid. IMHO.

No offense, dare, but I just don't get your statement that it doesn't make sense for everybody. I live in inland Maine--probably the least disaster- (at least of the natural type) prone area in the world, but that doesn't exclude us from trying to be better prepared. We admittedly don't have enough to last six months, though we would probably be able to survive, we just wouldn't be as balanced in the diet as if we were more diligent.

Some of the things I've done have been to dehydrate things like tomatoes and bananas--bought on the dent rack at the grocery, high in vitamins and awfully small when they're dry. Things like this--plus matches, batteries, etc. can be stashed under the towels in the bathroom if need be if they're vacuum sealed. Every once in a while I'll pick up a few cans of food--generally the highest-protein or highest vitamin stuff I can find like canned beans, sweet potatoes, beets, spinach, etc. Again, not much room (shove them under a bed), but a can of the right veggie and 2 cups of TVP that can be bought for around a dollar a pound can give my family all the nutrients they need for basic subsistance for a day. We're addict-type coffee drinkers, so what's the harm in keeping 5 lbs. around instead of one at a time? I keep large boxes of canning salt around all the time--if you have salt (cheap and will never go bad), you can preserve much of the stuff that'll go bad when the electric goes on the freezer. A large bottle of vitamins, a few boxes of emergency candles from the dollar store, several packets of Kool Aid or lemonade powder to flavor water or add vitamins, you get the drift. Once in a while I'll add additional things to my first aid kit like Steristrips (to "stitch" up larger wounds), an extra tube of Neosporin that I don't immediately need, surgical wound dressings, etc.; I can tell you that we haven't had a crisis here, but we've used some of the supplies that I wouldn't have bought if I hadn't been trying to be better-prepared for one.

It doesn't have to be a Y2K-type thing, but if everyone had a little stash, then--as the article suggests--we could all do our part to reduce the pressure on the emergency system in the early days of the crisis and let those guys do their job instead of guarding the grocery stores from the hordes of people who feel entitled to horde when the S-really-HTF. A side benefit happens if, God forbid, the bread-winner in your home loses his/her job, the pressure's off your finances for a little while until you can get back on your feet.

As I understand it, there is a difference between storing and hoarding.

Well, for example, when I lived in the city in a zero-bedroom apt. emergency storage was pretty much out of the question. I didn't even have a closet for my clothes....

That's what I meant by "not for everyone". Hope I clarified that remark.....

My daughter and I lived for a couple of yrs in a 22ft camp trailer. I always kept 3 to 4 months worth of supplies/food on hand in that trailer. It is doable for anybody, you just have to be creative.

I suppose it's a subjective difference, though. Who makes the distinction? I personally think the people who will be ordered to stay home in the event of a crisis are best qualified.

BTW, the only thing I can find about executive orders about food hoarding online relates to profiteering--in other words, people, businesses, etc. hoarding food in good times to profit from its sale at inflated prices during a crisis. Executive orders allow the president to bypass congress in times of crisis (among other things) and there are currently provisions that allow the president to order the governmental seizure of farms, animal feed, pharmaceuticals, water facilities, etc. to ensure equitable distribution of these resources in a time of crisis. This is aimed, again, at reducing the possibility of profiteering by the corporations that control these resources. I don't personally see that as a bad thing, but that doesn't remove my personal responsibility to do what I can within reason to prepare myself.

All of this doesn't mean that I don't believe that an EO is in place about 3 mos. of food, but no one can seem to provide proof of that--it wouldn't surprise me one bit given the priorities of the current administration. Besides--I would LOVE it if the gov't. came to my house and hauled me away because I had too many dried bananas: then I could legally profiteer from the interviews and speaking engagements that would surely follow...

Thank Bill Clinton
 

Thank former president Bill Clinton for his signing of an executive order allowing the government to confiscate stockpiles of food during a national emergency.

During the nuclear war era civil defense shelters were stocked. Now the various branches of government encourage individuals to stockpile food. I read that--so that they don't have to tie up their resources to do so for those that don't/wont.

Please read #10998.
http://www.millennium-ark.net/News_F...rders/EOs.html
http://www.millennium-ark.net/News_F.../EO.10998.html
Sorry, executive order #10998 was signed by Kennedy.

This comes up every year or so. I don;t remember the act and quite frankly, I hate to spend the time looking it up but.....several years ago, during .the Cold War Against The Evil Militias, there were several provisions tacked onto some act or the other. If my memory is correct (and it isn;t always) it was a defense spending bill. This had some vague Prohibitions against HORDING FOOD AND AMMUNITION.

Well....the shortwave talk shows took that and ran, starting a wave of rumors among the "WE THE PEOPLE" crowd.

It's no wonder this country's going to He!!. It's full of nuts.
Don't worry about food storage. No one from FDA or Homeland Security or any of the alphabet offices will come by. They're too lazy to do the job they are supposed to much less go after food storage people (which is perfectly legal)

I for one hope a lot of people DON"T worry about preparing for emergencies. We really need to thin down the population some.

Actually, I think they do this here in the USA too - or are planning to. I have an uncle in Utah that says they are getting hit by this kind of thing now - even if they don't run a farm.

of course
 

Storing - it when you buy it ahead and Hoarding is when you have it an others want it. Or storing is when you purchase/grow when it is plentiful and hoarding is when you buy more than you need when there isn't enough on the store shelves.

Hoarding is a word we will hear a lot of in the future and I don't doubt that the Govt will be at our doors to 'redistribute' the goods when trouble comes.

I would very much like to know what part of the USDA this 'employee' was with and their reasons for questioning this person in that way.

There are no parts of the U.S. Code that prohibit any amount of food storage by private individuals in their homes. Several years ago on another board we went through many dozens of posts, examined the U.S. Code, every still-current Executive Order, and every state law that anyone knew of or could find in a search and these rules simply do not exist.

In times of National Emergency there are certain Executive Orders that come into force, but they deal with farmers and ranchers, food producers, manufacturers, warehouses, distributors, and the like. Not private individuals who legally purchased their food stores in advance of the time of emergency.

Now stockpiling foods during or after a crisis hits can be a very different thing. It's perfectly legal for anyone with the money to do so to go out and buy all the food they want to buy right this very moment when everyone else has the same opportunity to do so. It's a very different thing to acquire by whatever methods scarce foodstuffs and other commodities during or after a crisis. Under circumstances such as that it is possible to get busted for hoarding and rightfully so. But then no one who considers themselves a prepper or survivalist should have any need to be acquiring scarce commodities under such circumstances because they should have already been prepared in advance.

All of this being said though my advice is still this: A closed mouth gathers no government busybodies.

There are no current laws or regulations barring anyone from storing as much food in their homes as it pleases them to do so. BUT, in times of extraordinary emergency the relevant agencies tasked with coping with the emergency take on extraordinary powers. If you're not some sort of commercial business chances are that no agency is ever going to come and requisition your food, fuel, equipment whatever. But the future is uncertain and there may come a time that we face such an emergency, or at least a small part of the country does. Emergency managers do what they have to do to cope for the greatest good for the greatest number. Keep your mouth closed about what you have and you will get to decide what you will and will not share rather than some third party.

.....Alan.

Wow!

You all have been great - so much helpful information!

Alan - I have no idea about the USDA employee details... From the sounds of the email the woman who was questioned was so thrown off by the visit that she didn't bother to ask many questions of her own. Here's the meat of the email I received...

"A person from the US Dept of Agriculture came to my door and asked me a
bunch of questions which boiled down to whether or not I store food.
My daughter has ONE pet chicken, and this woman was looking at the
chicken and asking if I have any others, etc. Do I garden? Any other
animals? Also, she had a list in her hand of all my neighbors, and was
planning to see all of them, too."

In my reply I told her she might want to contact her state dept of ag (WA) and ask some questions. If she does, hopefully she will pass on what she learns.

JoyceB

A self-sufficient person stores food and supplies. Hoarding is what that same person is accused of by people who haven't had the same forethought.

Hmmmm, I wonder if the grilling your friend got had anything to do with NAIS....

Sure glad I didn't have to live in those cramped conditions.... at least it sounds cramped. How did you do it (store the food)?

That could be - but the primary questioning seemed to focus on food storage... Asking about the gardening? It's just very strange.

JoyceB

You would be surprised how much storage space you can find. I kept our clothes in tubs under the beds (two narrow bunks with an aisle between.) Behind the clothes I had canned goods. We had cabinets over both beds and those were full. All the cabinets were filled up and under the seats at the table were filled. I also had clothes/bedding for being stuck at home for 4 months. We used a laundry in town to wash clothes. We lived 2 miles from the highway and our dirt road was frequently impassable for long periods of time due to mud/snow etc. I would put the dirty clothes in a trash can outside with the lid bungeed closed. We also hauled our water 9 miles from town so we had a cistern outside. Can't say it was easy, but we survived ok.

Did this USDA employee offer any proof, such as an official ID? Is it possible s/he was actually casing homes for burglaries later? The more I think about this, the more curious it sounds. My first thought was NAIS, too, or perhaps the agricultural census, but both are administered through state ag departments, I think. Andf neither would be asking about food storage.

All in all, very suspicious IMO.

As for the legality of food storage, Mr. Hagan's post pretty much says it all. I remember the discussion on the other board he refers to, and it was very comprehensive.

to add: I have on my desk right now a brochure from my county board of health advising me to stockpile food and water, medicine, and other supplies for at least 30 days. It was passed out door to door earlier this year by oour fire department. The obvious implication is prepping for a flu pandemic, and it comes with the warning that we shouldn't count on help from overwhelmed local medical facilities.

I'd go with another version of "SSS" - store, stockpile and shut up.....

Here in Texas, they have kinda threatened they 'could' put meters on private wells and charge for the volume of water - not just tax it.

Personally, I would never state 'there is no such law'. We don't have a clue what is contained in all those tons of paper they print up each year in Washington. Something like that could have been tacked on some miliatary appropriations bill, or some healthcare bill, or child molestor bill, or whatever.

Not to say the poster who asserted this doesn't know a lot more about it than I do - I accept that he/she does.

It isn't nutty to be suspicious of what the government can/will do? It is suicidal not to do it.

Is it there? I don't know. Is it possible? Absolutely!!!

probably the "proper and necessary" clause. with this they can pretty well make laws against anything they find "in our best interest".. Gardening is the same way. Technically it is illegal.

A.T. Hagan writes:

"In times of National Emergency there are certain Executive Orders that come into force, but they deal with farmers and ranchers, food producers, manufacturers, warehouses, distributors, and the like. Not private individuals who legally purchased their food stores in advance of the time of emergency."

But don't most of us come in under the "but they deal with..." part of this? Why should I be penalized (and robbed) if I choose to store my meat on the hoof instead of in a canning jar? It's fair to take my cows, sheep, and chickens, the ones I paid to feed and maintain, the ones I slogged through blizzard and boiling sun to care for (uphill both ways!), the ones I bought or bred, to feed those who haven't lifted a finger? The people who didn't respond to the numerous governmental pleas to stock up?

I expect the government will use the NAIS definition of a farmer during times of trouble, which will include even the person with only one chicken. My mentor and I talked about this very thing way back years ago when we were offered the "fabulous opportunity to sign up early for this new government program that would give us free ID tags for our animals, and was totally voluntary!" We both voluntarily declined the offer.

I don't maintain much stock, just enough to supply our needs and breed some for next year. Same with the garden, enough seed for the next few years just in case of a drought or crop failure. But if things go the way suggested, I will not stand idly by and allow my security to be forcibly distributed to those who did not work for it. Not to be cold-hearted or anything, but I think some people's choice not to be prepared can also be interpreted as their choice to de-select themselves from the gene pool. And who am I to argue with their choice?

Actually, I did see a congresscritter once who stated that the government really needed to either stop or put some guidelines out about people raising their own food. He said that most people did not know how to do it safely.

Sometimes, I think they go on TV to make such outrageous statements and then sit back and check the fallout.

You know, I once wrote a long-scene in a story about this very type of scenario. The government says you're a farmer and you say you are not.

Bottom line is a closed mouth gathers no government busybodies.

If I wasn't clear the first time I'll make it so here. Just because there is no law or regulation at present that allows the government to take your privately owned food acquired BEFORE the crisis or emergency strikes doesn't mean that one can't be created on the spot AFTER the fact. In times of extraordinary emergency those folks tasked with coping with it can take on extraordinary authority to cope with it. It's that simple.

A closed mouth gathers no government busybodies.

If you are really concerned about this sort of thing happening and you have means of food production that cannot be hidden then you'd better think this all the way through right now. I'm not going to go further than that.

.....Alan.

Everybody best get a juicer and start juicing the crabgrass. Need to have your body used to it before they confiscate your green beans. LOL

This makes me wonder... If it was SHTF, if there was a law that said govt could take some portion of your food store, would you let them? Or, would you treat them like anyone else who was trying to take your stuff? I think I might lean towards the line of thinking that after SHTF, all bets are off in terms of law and govt rights.

Lets just say my ammo storage would be depleted :p

Personally we store for more realistic threats like natural disasters, long unemployment periods (I'm a contractor), issues with food supply poisioning (think of the pet food issues and imagine that hitting human food), etc. Plus we all know food is only going up so buying it cheaper just makes economic sense. TSHTF is a possibility however there are so many other food supply issues that would create problems that TSHTF is low on my list of issues to prepare against.